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S,mOf 




% 






i. 



« 



« • 



THIRD REPORT 



FHOM THE 



SELECT COMMITTEE 



Or~»(HB 




HOtrSj; OF COMMONS, 



/ 



APPOINTED TO 



ENQUIRE INTO THE PRESENT STATE 

^i/c'^ CO')' /) 'J^-^ O c)^ 



OF 'THE 



AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY, 



TOGETHER WITH THE 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS LAID BEFORE THE COMMITTEE, 



Aro 



AN INDEX 



LONDON: 
PRINTED BY ORDER OF THE HONOURABLE COURT OF DIRl-CTORS, 

BY J. L. COX AND SON, GREAT QUEEN STKEET. 

1882. 



Hh6 



f 






CONTENTS. 



THIRD REPORT from the Select Committee of the I 
Commons 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, 17th February to 21st AprU IJ 



ACCOUNTS and PAPERS laid before the Committee 



MINUTES of EVIDENCE, 12th July to 6th October 1831 



GENERAL INDEX 



THIRD REPORT. 



THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed on the presen 
the Affairs of the East-India Company, and to inqi 
the state of Trade between Great Britain, the Em 
and China, and to report then* Observations thereupc 
House : and who were empowered to report the Mi 
Evidence taken before them from time to time to th< 
and to whom certain Petitions presented to the Hou 
present Session of Parliament were referred : — 

Having considered the Matters referred to them, anc 
called for Evidence and Documents upon subjects connec 
the Affairs of the East-India Company of much important 
agreed that such Information should be reported to the 
without thinking it necessary at present to make any Obs< 
thereupon. 



I Uh October 1831. 



LIST OF WITNESSES. 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



• •• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



Blair^ Captain Thomas 
Bracken, Thomas, Esq. 
Chaplik, William, Esq. 
Christian, Hugh Gborgs, Esq. ••• 
Crawfurd, John, Esq. 

Forbes, Sir Charles, Bart., M.P. 21 

GisBORNB, Matthew, Esq. ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 

Gordon, Peter, Esq. 34, 61, 60, 1( 

Innes, Captain John 
Lanqton, Thomas, Esq. 

MaCLAINB, GlLUAN, EsQ. ••• 

Melvill, Jaices Cosmo, Esq. 

jMill, James, i!iSQ. ••• ••• ••• •*• ««, ,,« ,«, ,«, 

xLOWDEN, W. rl. O., JbiSQ. ••• ••• ••« *«« ««t ••• ••• 

RioKARDs, Robert, Esq 

ivitchie, James, issq. ••« ••• «•« ««« ««« ««« ««« 

Saunders, Mr. Joshua 

Sinclair, Alexander, Esq. 

Stewart, John, Esq. ••• ••• ••« ,„ ,,, ,„ ,., 

Smith, Major-Gen. Sir Lionel, K.CB. 

Sullivan, John, Esq 

WiLDET, William, Esq 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



••• ••• ••• ••• ••• ••• 



* « 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE 



TAKEN BBFORE 



THE SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS 



ON THE 



AFFAIRS OF THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY, 



IN THE LAST SESSION OF PARLIAMENT ; 



AND ALSO 



THE ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS 



LAID BEFORE THE SAID COMMITTEE. 



LONDON: 

PRINTED BY ORDER OF THE HONOURABLE COURT OF DIRECTORS, 

By J. L. Cox, Great Queen Street, LinooInVInn fields. 

1831. 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE .. 
ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS 



tL 



LIST OF WITNESSES. 



Jovis, 17** die Februarii, 1831 : 
Thomas Bracken, Esq p. 1 

Martis, 22<> die Februarii, 1831 : 

Thomas Bracken, Esq 28 

Peter Gordon, Esq 34 

Lun«, 28^ die Februarii, 1831 : 
Peter Gordon, Esq • 61 

Jovis, 3*' die Martii, 1831 : 

Peter Gordon, Esq 80 

Matthew Gisbome, Esq > 86 

LuiMB, 7** die Martii, 1831 : 

Peter Gordon, Esq 101 

James Ritchie, Esq, •• 102 

Jovis, 10« die Martii, 1831 : 
GUlian Maclaine, Esq • 1*28 

Martis, 15<> die Martii, 1831 : 
John Crawfurd, Esq • 151 



Jovis, 17^ die Martii, 1831 : 
Mr, Joshua Saunders ..•••p. 167 

Lunae, 21« die Martii, 1831 : 
Peter Gordon, Esq 184 

Jovis, 24« die Martii, 1831 : 
Peter Gordon, Esq. ...•*•• 194 

Jxxyis, 14*» die AprUis, 1831 : 

fVaiiam WUdey, Esq. ^ 203 

Sir Charles Forbes, Bart 211 

Lun«, 18^ die Aprilis, 1831 : 
Sir Charles Forbes, Bart 216 

Jovis, 21<> die Aprilis, 1831 : 

Sir Charles Forbes, Bart 224 

John Stewart, Esq • •• 244 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



Jovis, 170 die Februarii, 1831. 



Sir Henry Parnbll, Bart, in the Chair. 



THOMAS BRACKEN, Esq. called in, and examined. 

1. You are a partner in the house of Messrs. Alexander and Comf 
Calcutta ? — I am. 

2. How long have you actually resided in India ?— Fifteen years. 

3. How long have you been returned to England ?-»About two m( 

4. How many large and old-established houses, of the same descri 
that with which you are concerned, are there in Calcutta ? — Five oi 
the old houses. 

5. Have any new commercial establishments been formed in Calcul 
the opening of the free trade in 1815 ?— Yes, there have been se\ 
should think twelve or fourteen. 

6. What is the general nature of the business carried on by e ii 
like your own ? — Agency and banking in all its. different branch , 
of money for commercial purposes. 

7. Do you act as consignees also for shipments of goods from Lon 
Yes, for shipments of goods from London and the out-ports. 

8. To what other countries do your mercantile transactions exi 
China, and all parts of India, America, France, the Persian Gulf, anc 
times to Holland and Denmark } but to a very small amount in th 
countries. 

9. Is there any trade to South America ? — Very little } that has fi 
very much of late years. 

10. Has the commerce to Calcutta increased since your first acqua 
with it ? — Very considerably. 

11. To what do you attribute that increase?— To the greater i 
afforded by the opening of the trade. 

12. Can you furnish the Committee with any statement showing 
crease of the trade of Calcutta since the opening of the free trade ?- 
a memorandum extracted from a publication which has lately been 
in Calcutta, compiled by Mr. Wilson, in the Company's service, 
capacity of assay-master he was required by the Government to n 
inquiry into the quantity of bullion exported from and imported it 

B 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



17 Feb. 1831. 



T. Bracken^ E$q. 



cutta J during that inquiry be had access to the Custom-house records with 
respect to all other artjoles of tradf, and he was induced to publish a 
book on the commerce of Bengal. It contains the imports and exports of 
every description of merchandize, from 1813-14 to 18^-28. I have an 
extract from that work before me now. 

13. Have the goodness to deh'ver it in. 

[The Witness delivered in the same^ which was read asjbllows:] 



LMPORTS and EXPORTS of Calcutta, for the Fifteen Years ending in 1827-1828. 


YE ARSL 


IMPORT&- 


KX PORTS. 




AjMM. 


£. tterKng, 


Riq>te$, 


£.Uert»g, 


1813-14 


2,12,00,000 


2,120,000 


5,39,00,000 


5,390,000 


1814,15 


2,61,00,000 


2,610,000 


5,61,00,000 


5,610,000 


1815-16 


3,44,00,000 


3,440,000 


6,66,00,000 


6,660,000 


1816-17 


5,84,00,000 


5,840,000 


6,99,00,000 


6,990,000' 


1817-18 


6,86,00,000 


6,850,000 


7,81,00,000 


7,8i0,doa 


1818-19 


7,62,00,000 


7,620,000 


7,09,00,000 


7,090,060 


1819-20 


5,65,00,000 


5,650,000 


6,95,00;000 


6,950,006 


1820-21 


4,52,00,000 


4,520,000 


6,71,00,000 - 


6,7io,ooa 


1821-22 


4,67,00,000 


4,670,000 


7,70,00,000 


7,790^000 


1822-23 


4,30,00,000 


4,300,000 


8,71,00,000 


8,710,000 


1823-24 


3,88,00,000 


3,880,000 


8,04,00,000 


8,040,000 


18-24-25 


4,04,00,000 


4,040,000 


7,75,00,000 


7,750,000 


1825-26 


3,60,00,000 


3,600,000 


7,60,00,000 


7,600,000 


1826-27 


3,40,00,000 


3,400,000 


6,80,00,000 


6,800,000 


1827-28 


4,15,00,000 


4,150,000 


8,73,00,000 


8,730,000 

1 



14. What is a crore ?— A crore is about a million of pounds^ 

15. What proportion of the trade of Calcutta is carried on with Great 
Britain ?— The proportion with Great Britain is about seven-tenths of the 
whole trade. 

16. Has that been increasing or decreasing since the commencement of 
the free trade ? — It has increased. I think, in the opening the trade, the 
proportion was about five-tenths ; it is now seven-tenths. 

17. What are the principal imports from Great Britain and other coun- 
tries r — Of late years cotton piece-goods and twist, and metals of every 
description (spelter is now very largely imported), and woollens. 

18. Is the consumption of British cotton goods daily increasing among 
the inhabitants of India?— I think it is, very considerably.. 

19» Do they get them cheaper than their own manufactures r — Certain 

descriptions 



1 
Id 


t l: t very I ki » ^ 
t they 1 1 I 
( i i , tor 10 


I % 


a r \i ir nj 


mueh 


1 by t natives ? — Yen, it in use 



SELECT COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OE COMMONS 

deficri 

sent. I thwk thevdry 
selves ; but the inidd I 
the Dacca miislimi a e 

SO. Is that a descti 
largely. 

21. What descriptidn 6f natives ^— Every one that can afford it : 
those above the very lowest use the English piece-goods } shopkeep 
persons that possess a little property. 

22. Do the lower classes of the Indians wear any of our manu£ 

Eroduce ?-^Of late years they have worn a particular kind of cloth, o: 
erchief, which has been sent out from Manchester, and which ha 
sold very cheap indeed ; and they get them cheaper than corresp 
cloths of their own manufactures made of cotton, and coloured. 

23. In patterns, or plain colours? — Sometimes patterns, and sometime 

24. How are they worn? — ^They wear them over their heads and sh( 
and also round their waists sometimes. 

25. With respect to cotton yarn imported into India, is that worl 
into low-priced cloths i^— It is ; but there are different numbers of tl 
imported : some is used for the better classes of cloths. 

26. Is the import of cotton twist increasing ?~-Yes j it has in 
amazingly within these few years } in fact, it was unknown a sho 
since in Calcutta. 

27. Is it also used in sewing and making np cloths ?— As thread 
that is of a different description. 

28. Is the thread and the yarn the same thing ? — Not quite : the 
is of a finer description ; differently spun. 

29- In travelling through distant parts of India, have you met with 
goods in the bazaars and market-places ? — I have never been mucli 
upper provinces ; but I have been in them and at Bhurtpore, 8 
western parts of India. I have seen English manufactures exposes 
bazaars or markets there» and also at Lucknow ; I have seen inaitatior 
in great quantities. 

SO. Shawls made of what ? — Of cotton, I believe. 

31. When you saw the shawls exposed for sale, were there Ct 
shawls also? — They were to be procured, but at much higher prices, 
are shawl merchants who travel about the country. 

32. When did the import of cotton^ twist first commence?— I do n 
there was any great quantity before 1824 or 1825. 

33. Can you state the quantity of cotton twist that has been imp 
late years ? — The work to which I have alluded, drawn out from the 
house records at Calcutta, states that fact. By this publication, thf 

B 2 



4 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 18SL cotton twist imported in 1827 and 18S8, was about ninieteen lacks of rupees ; 
in the following year it increased considerably. Mr. Wilson has not gone 

• ^''*«*«^ ^- so far as that, but I am prepared to state that that was the case. In 1829-SO 

it fell off again ; but for the three years of 1827-28, 1828.29* and 1829^^, 
the value was about seventy lacks of rupees, making about twenty-three 
lacks of rupees each yean 

34. Do you conceive that the great importation of cotton fabrics from 
Great Britain has materially interfered with the native manufactures? — Very 
considerably. 

35. Has it produced distress among the weavers and artizans r — Not to 
the extent that might have been supposed ; for the weavers are also cultiva- 
tors, and they turn their labour from one employment to the other without 
that shock, perhaps, which might be expected in other countries. 

36. Are not the weavers employed in working up the cotton twist from 
England? — ^Some of them; but a great many of them have become 
cultivators. 

37* How was the yarn supplied before the importation of cotton twist 
from England ? — By the women chiefly. 

38. Was there any machinery applied to it?-— None. There are now 
spinning and weaving mills established in India. 

39* With respect to the weavers of Dacca muslins ; do you know any 
thing of their condition, in consequence of this increased importation of 
British goods ? — At first they were thrown out of employment, but most of 
them turned their attention to the land as ryots, and some of them have been 
employed by indigo planters, who have spread in that neighbourhood, par- 
ticularly of late years. 

40. Were they of the same class as the ryots before ?— The weavers are 
almost always ryots. 

41. Has not the importation of Indian silk piece goods greatly increased 
since the opening of the free trade ?— I believe it has ; but 1 do not exactly 
know the proportionate increase. 

42. Can you state any new articles imported into India from the countries 
of Europe since the opening of the fr^'e trade ? — The spelter and cotton 
twist may be considered the most important. Of late years there has been 
a large importation of wine, particularly of Sherry, which was a novelty in 
the Indian market. 

43. Spelter is what is commonly called zinc ? — It is. 

44. What is the Indian name for it? — It is of the same quality almost as 
tutenague, but not quite so good ; that was chiefly imported from China, but 
has now entirely ceased. 

45. To what purposes is the spelter commonly applied ? — It is for tn^kix^g 
pott and pan8» and cooking utensils of every description. 

46. Are 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS 

46. Are those pots worked up in India ?— Generally they are, I 
some have been made up in this country, and have sold very well j 
only speak of that from hearsay. 

47. Have not they imported some pots of that kind made of iron I 
not think I have seen any made of iron, not for the purposes which I ; 
larly allude to, for cooking ; the natives prefer brass to any other ; 
and spelter and tin together, make the composition. 

48. Are the brass pots in ^reat demand with the natives ? — Tl 
There is scarcely a native that has not one of them, and also a sort oi 
plate or platter. 

49. Will you state to the Committee the staple articles of expo 
Bengal?— -Indigo, sugar, saltpetre, and cotton at one time; but 
fallen off very much, and raw silk. 

50. Is grain exported much ? — ^There is a good deal of grain exp 
different parts, and at one time large quantities were sent to the coai 
has almost ceased, except in cases of famine. There is a large trade 
with the Isle of France, which is now almost entirely supplied froi 
with rice. 

51. What is the amount and value of indigo annually export 
Bengal at present? — It is almost diflScult to say, it varies so much 
price in the Calcutta market ; I should say from two to three millions 
It depends so much upon the price here, which of course influet 
Calcutta valuation. 

52. Can you slate the quantity? — That is very uncertain too, but 
the average is about 120,000 maunds a year ; sometimes more, someti 

53. To what countries is it chiefly exported ? — Chiefly to Englai 
to America, some to France (the consumption of France has increase 
years), and some small quantity to the Persian Gulf. 

54. What becomes of that which goes to the Persian Gulf? — It ( 
Persia, and, I believe, into some parts of the Russian territory ; th 
very large quantity sent there. 

55. Is the firm with which you are connected extensively engage 
culture of indigo ?— Yes. 

56. Have you any accounts which show the outlay and returns 
given period ?-»I have a small memorandum here, showing the resi 
operation of fifty-six indigo factories in various parts of Bengal, B4 
Benares, most of which have been under our agency, or in which 
interested, for the last six years. The gross amount of outlay dui 
time has been 1 crore and 77 lacks, or £1,770,000, the returns h 
2 crore and 20 lacks, or £2,200,000. The average yearly outlay 
including interest or commission, has been 31 lacks, and 9SfOOO r 
£319,300 ; the average yearly return has been 39 lacks, 81,000 n 
£398,100 i the gross profit upon that is 7 lacks, 9^000 rupeeiw or £ 



6 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

* 

7 Feb. 1831. 57. \lliat would be the net profit? — I have not got a statement of that, 
— ^ but I should think a deduction might be made of eighteen or twenty per 

Brarkm^ Esq. ^^^^^^ £^ charges and interest of money. 

58. What number of indigo factories may there be throughout the Bengal 
provinces ?— I should think from three to four hundred ftctories. 

59. Have not the natives of India lately begun to imitate the European 
process of manufacturing indigo ? — They have. 

60. Have they invested large funds in it ? — ^Yes, largely. There are a 
great many small factories. 

61. Is the indigo manufactured by natives, without European assistance, 
equal in quality to that manufactured by Europeans? — ^Certainly not; in 
general it is very inferior. 

62. Are you acquainted with the article called lac dye? — I have seen it ; 
I know very little of it myself. 

63. Is not that a recent introduction, as an object of commercial specula- 
tion ? — ^Not very recent ; as long as my knowledge goes it has existed ; it 
has been used more of late, but the prices have been very discouraging. 

64. Is it used for dye ? — ^It is used for dyeing ; the colour is an orange- 
red, I think. 

65. Is the firm of which you are a member in any way connected with 
Europeans engaged in the production of raw silk ? — Not now, or very lately ; 
we have been engaged in it, but not to any great extent 

66. Why did you discontinue it ? — In consequence of the difficulties we 
found to exist from the competition of the Company's commercial agents, 
which rendered it a hazardous speculation. 

67* Do you know whether the other great firms in Calcutta are in the habit 
of making advances to planters and others ? — Indigo planters they are. 

68. Have they also made advances to those engaged in the preparation of 
raw silk? — That I cannot state. Generally speaking, the commercial resi- 
dents thcihselves are dealers in silk, and have their business transacted in 
(.'alcutta by the agency^houses ; I do not think it is often that men, not con- 
nected with commercial agency, are in the habit of making advances. 

C/J. U not tfie great obstacle to that branch of commerce in the hands of 
the private mt-rchant, tliat he i% obliged to enter into competition with the 
Company's ser^ant^ ?— (^tainJy, 

70. Do t}ie (y/my9uy\ ager^t^ yAA^iM any peculiar advantages over the 
private trad^; in tfiat /expect? — I (Uj not believe they do now. There was a 
re;;ij|atiofi, by which a ^^erUam ^ior.iy ^A d^iUm waA given to the Company's 
contracti itifh t^#« ry^>t^ ^^i ^'^ pe^/ple T^tto receive advances ; but 1 think 
that r^AiUu/n fca* twflr^ f^^-^.try rfsf^.^rA^A^ 

7U Wa;i it a ri^jM, ^4 yf^y^flif\^l^^ ^— >i^ j tJne or^e I alhidc to was, where 
a native t/xA m »i7M<^ ft^/m t^v m^^^^oaiir and mb^erjnently took one from 

the 



SELECT COMMITTEE op thb HOUSE OF COMMON 

the Company's agent* the individual could not receive his money or 
back, until all claims on the part of the Company, had ceased. 

72. Was it rescinded in consequence of repeated applications u 
subject ?— It was rescinded in consequence or memoriak sent to ( 
government or the Court of Directors, and they directed that it si 
rescinded* 

7«S. Supposing the East*India Company were to cease altog 
carry on trade in silk, is it your opinion that the silk trade of Ind 
increase under the exertions of individuals ?— -My opinion is, certai 
it would. 

74. Will you state your reasons for that opinion ?-^I conceive 
mode by which the Company transact their business enhances the p 
considerably. They do not enter into it as a mercantile speculatio 
a mode of remittance. 

75. Would the quality of the silk be improved if the trade were 
by individuals instead of the Company? — I do not see any reaso 
should not. 

76. Do the Company carry it on more extensively than indivi 
They do now. 

77. Are not the Company and individuals upon equal terms ? — j 
are. 

78. Then if the Company carry it on more extensively than in* 
how is it that individuals do not now succeed in their speculation 
and beat the Company out of the market ?— -Because, whenever it 
that the ( ommercial Kesident of the Company is in the market, th 
raised beyond what an individual would think it prudent to gi 
Company's agent is not so much influenced by such consideratior 
complies with the price affixed. 

79. Is it not the case, that with respect to every article of commc 
the Company's agents are known to be in the market, the price of i 
Unquestionably, 1 think it has that effect 

80. Are you aware of any instances in which tlie sales in I 
articles so purchased by the Company, at an enhanced price in I 
been below the rate at which they purchased in India ?— *I have no 
instance immediately in my recollection ; but I imagine that 
instances, in sugar and silk, they must have sustained heavy losses^ 

81. Must not that materially interfere with any commercial sp 
carried on by the private merchants ?— I think it interferes prejudi 
the private merchant, certainly. 

82. Would it not tend to derange all the speculations he might fi 
other circumstances ? — I do not think at present he would be inclir 
system now is, to go into the market a9 a competitor, from the i 



T. Bracken^ Esq. 



8 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDU AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 1831. that he would have to pay a higher price for the raw produce than it would 

be prudent for him to give. 

83. What effect do you imagine that derangement of commercial specu- 
lation on the part of the private trader has upon the natives of India, 
beneficial or otherwise ? — I conceive that at present the native weaver, for 
instance, or the persons employed by the Company^s agents, benefit by the 
prices that the Company give ; they benefit in one way, certainly, because 
they get a higher price probably than it would be worth the while of a private 
individual to give. 

84. Although some individuals may benefit, has it not a tendency to con- 
tract commercial speculations consiaerably ? — I think it has; it acts as a 
premium upon the particular produce, and enhances its cost. 

85. Does not it tend to limit the demand of that production of the coun- 
try ? — I think it does. 

86. Do Europeans, in any part of the country you are acquainted with, 
enter into the culture and manufacture of sugar, or the culture and prepa- 
ration of cotton ? — ^Not that I am aware of, in the immediate cultivation of 
it; they purchase it generally in the bazaars. They do not superintend 
the actual growth of cotton, but they make advances to the ryots, both for 
sugar and cotton. 

87. What, according to your opinion, is the cause which prevents the 
Europeans from engaging in the culture and manufacture of sugar^ in the 
same manner in which they engage in the culture and manufacture of indigo? 
— Sugar is supposed to require a much greater dead stock to make it than 
indigo, and a greater outlay at first. With respect to indigo the outlay is 
annual, and the buildings are comparatively of small value. With respect to 
sugar, a large extent of country would be required under the control of an 
European, and he would have to erect very expensive and substantial build- 
ings, and to erect machinery at great cost. 

88. Do you know what the sort of machinery now is by which the 
manufacture of sugar is carried on ? — It is very inferior to the West- India 
process ; but within these late years, I understand, one or two sugar-mills 
have been sent out from England to India, but I have not seen any sugar 
that was made by them ; incjeed, I do not believe they were erected When I 
came away. 

89. Are you aware that a large number of sugar-mills have been sc^nt out 
to the Mauritius? — Yes, I understand they have, and steam-engines connected 
with them. 

90. Are you acquainted with the process of making sugar in India ? — Not 
personally. 

91 . Is it grown in large quantities by any individual ? — No ; I believe each 
ryot has a certain number of begahs. 

92. What 



SELECT COMMITTEE o» the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

92. What is the proportion of a begah to an acre ?-^It varies in difie 
parts of the country ; in Calcutta about one-third of an acre. 

93. Are there any large sugar plantations in India ?-*Not that I am ai 
of; the ryot brings his sugar to the bazaar. 

94. Are you acquainted with the nature of the sugar manufacture in 
of the West-Indian colonies? — No, I am not. I have seen gentlemen 1 
the West-Indies in India, who complained of the quality of our sugar, 
stated it to be very inferior to the West-Indian sugar. 

9^. Do you know whether the same individual who grows the sugar 
expresses it from the cane ?— I believe there are two stages ; the first pro 
of expressing it from the cane is done by the person that grows it, anc 
takes it then to another party, by whom it goes through another process ; 
I am not very certain on that point. 

96. Do you conceive, that supposing a greater capital were employe 
the growth and manufacture of sugar in India, there might be a much la 
quantity grown than is now produced ? — 1 believe it can be grown to 
extent ; and I have no doubt that if capital were applied to it the qu; 
would be better. 

97* Have you any reason to doubt that it would be sugar of as ^ 
quality as that produced in other parts of the world ? — I think it is doul 
whether there would be any immediate change. I have understood that 
sugar-cane itself in India, from bad management, is not equal to the ^ 
India sugar-cane. 

98. Would there be any impediment to the introduction of the best spe 
of sugar-cane ? — I should think there would be no impediment ; but the 
is, that the sugar*cane, as at present cultivated, is held to be inferior to 
West-Indian. 

99* Supposing it were desirable to extend the cultivation of sugar in In 
could large spaces of ground, unoccupied by other cultivations, be very ea 
found ; such, for example, as 1,500 or 1,600 acres, all lying together ? 
should think so, unquestionably. I conceive there would be no impedin 
to obtaining any extent of land, because the present cultivator would b 
disposed to sell his field or let his field for sugar, as for indigo. 

100. Would it not displace a considerable mass of industry now emplo 
in other cultivations? — So far it would displace it, but for value receiv 
no man would part with his field unless he was paid for it. 

101. Is there not a great abundance of land in India to be applied 
various species of cultivation, at present unoccupied ? — There are gi 
quantities. 

102. Supposing the better land to be employed more largely in the ci 
vation of sugar, could not other species of Indian produce be grown u| 
lands of an inferior description ?— The soil, of course, varies there as it d 

C ev 



10 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 1831. evevy where ; but there is an immense quantity of land occupied with jungle 

at present, but which, with a sufficient inducementt people would clear away, 

7 Bracken^ Esq. ^^^ fj^j^j \i available either for wheat or rice, or other products. 

lOS. You do not then conceive, that supposing the cultivation of sugar 
and other articles of export were considerably increased by an outlay of 
capital and the application of European skill, there would, of necessity, be 
any diminution in the Indian produce, as applicable to the food of the 
natives ? — ^Certainly not. 

104. Are you aware whether any improvement has been made in the cul- 
tivation of cotton since the introduction of the free trade? — I believe not. 

105. What are the inconveniences and restraint complained of or felt as a 
burden at present by British-born subjects in India, not being in the service 
of His Majesty or the East-India Company? — There are several - under the 
early regulations of the Company which have not been repealed yet. I have 
a list, taken from Mr. Auber's work, which I can deliver in ; it chiefly relates 
to penalties attached to Europeans for being in the country without license, 
and their being liable to be removed by order of the Governor General. 

106. Have the goodness to read it. 

[ The Witness read the same, asfoUcnos : ] 

'* No British subject is peimitted to reside in India without a license from the East- 
India Company : no British subject^ even with a license^ can go beyond ten miles of 
one of the presidencies without a new license. A British subject fouixi in India without 
a license, or whose license may have expired, is amenable to the courts in Indiaj and 
liable to be punished with a fine of 2,000 rupees for the first offence, and 4,000 rupees 
for the second offence. A British subject found in India without a license is liable to 
be sent home, and prosecuted for a nusdemeanor before the courts of England, or not 
prosecuted, as the East-India Company may think proper. Rritish subjects in India, 
having licenses, are liable to have them cancelled at the discretion of the different 
governors ; and, after two months' notice, to be deemedpersons in India without license, 
and liable to all the penalties of that condition. Tne Governor Generali or other 
governors of India, are prohibited from granting licenses to British subjects without the 
permission of the Court of Directors. British subjects, having licenses to proceed to 
the interior, must be furnished with a {resh license at every removal from district to 
district. No British subject can engage in the inland trade of salt, beetle-nut^ tobacco 
or rice, except on account of the Company, on pain of forfeiting all such goods and 
conmiodities, and treble the value of the same ; one half to go to the United Company 
and one half to the informer. Any British subject found trafficking or haunting the 
countries or places within the limits of tiie East-India Company's charter without their 
license, is liable to forfeiture of ship and cargo and double the value of the same ; 
one fourth-part to go to the informer, and three fourth-parts to the East-India 
Company. British subjects in India are not permitted to oold lands in property, 
lease, or mortgage.'* 

I may state, with respect to salt, that before I left Calcutta, the govern- 
ment had issued an order allowing Europeans to purchase salt at their sales at 
Calcutta, which had not been the case before. 

107. Do yoa know whether those regulations are practically enforced in 
India ?— They have been, in some instances. I believe, in my time, three or 

four 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

four persons have siifiered under them. I may state, with respect to 
regulation, *' that no European is allowed to go ten miles from Calcutta 5 
out a license ;** that that in practice is quite rescinded* The Gove 
Generars own country house is sixteen miles from Calcutta, and gentle 
out of the service are constantly in the habit of going up there. And, ix 
own person I have frequently gone over the country m various direct: 
without applying for a license; but still the regulation does exist, and 
government is in the habit of advertising this order occasionally. I 
before me an order from the general department, dated in 18S6, which 
follows : 

" Fort William, General Department, August 4, 18 
*' It having come to the knowledfife of the Governor that Europeans are in the 
of visiting tlie Upper Provinces in tne prosecution of conmiercial speculations, < 
the temporary purpose of disposing of investments of goods, without having obt 
the previous permission of government to proceed to the interior; notice is h 
^iveu, that instructions will be issued to the magistrates of the several districts 
doring on the rivers, to stop all Europeans, whether British-bom subjects or c 
wise, and Americans, not being in the service of His Majesty, or in the eh 
military service or employment of the Honourable Company, who may be i 
in the interior, at a distance of ten miles from the presidency, and unprovided v 
passport. Applications for passports are tp be made in writing to the Secreta 
Government in the general departments, and are to contain the following particul 

" 1st. The name and occupation of the persons applying. 

'' 2d. The time of his arrival in India, and whether with or without a license 
the Court of Directors. 

" 3d. The place or places to which the individual may be desirous of procee 
and, 

" 4thly. The general object of his journey. 

« By command of the Right Honourable the Vice-President in Council, 

(Signed) " C. Lushinoton, 

" Chief Secretarj' to the Govemmen 

Now, that appears to have been advertised as a matter of form, becau 
am not aware of any individual, merely going for pleasure from Calc 
ever thinking of asking for a passport* 

108. Are you aware that advertisements, nearly to the same effect, 
been issued at the other presidencies, which appear by the newspapers 
am not aware of that 

109. Are the regulations more strictly enforced at the other preside) 
than they are at Calcutta ? — That I cannot speak to. 

110. Practically, ha v^ not the old regulations preventing Europeans 
holding land, been considerably relaxed by later regulations ? — There w 
order of Government, dated, I think, in February I829f which 
founded upon the same basis as aprevious order respecting holding 1 
for the puipose of the cqltivation of coffee. The former applied to pei 
deiiroos dif caltivBtiDg indigo^ but it was at the same time encumbered 

C2 




12 fiVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 18S1. so, many restrictions, tlmt I do not believe there i^ any instanceof a person 

applying for permission under it. • 

raoten^ .$q, ^^^^ ^,^ ^^^ ^^ permission originally given, rescinded by the Directors ? 

-^I am not aware of that. 

112. Are there many respectable and industrious British-born subjects 
now at Calcutta, and other places in the Bengal province, without ft license 
from the India Company? — I believe there are a good many without 
licenses. 

1 13* Do you imagine that the regulations to which you have alluded, do 
practically interfere with the conduct of commercial speculations ? — I think 
they interfere with respect to the holding of lands, certainly. Indeed, I 
know an instance that occurred very recently in India, where, upon a regu- 
lation of the Bengal Government, 48 of 179^> very serious injuir was 
sustained by an Englishman being ejected from the possession of landed 
property, on the sole ground that he was an Englishman ; and though he 
was acting in the capacity of agent for a native, to whom the property be* 
longed, yet it was held, that under that regulation he could not be in 
charge, though he had a local license to reside in the district ; and he was 
removed. There was a lawsuit about the property, and the possession was 
given to the opposite party upon the above ground alone, viz. than an En- 
glish person had no right of occupation whatever* without the express sanc- 
tion of the Governor General, which in this case had not been given ; for it 
had been thought unnecessary, as the party had a local license to reside in 
the district. It was thought be might act as the agent of a native proprietor ; 
but it was held that he could not, and he was, by the order of the court, 
ejected at an hour's notice, and the possession of a very valuable property 
given over to another party. 

114. Is it not essential to the conduct of commercial speculations, that 
individuals should have free access to the parts of the country where 
either their goods are to be sold, or where purchases are to be made ? — I 
think so. 

115. Have they not thereby the means of ascertaining more correctly 
the wants of the people ? — Unquestionably, by constant motion from place 
to place. 

116. Does any inconvenience arise to British subjects from the necessity 
of their having to procure a fresh license when they remove to the interior of 
the country, or from district to district ? — 1 do not think that is any prac- 
tical inconvenience, because I have never known an instance where it has 
been refused. The parties are compelled to make references of conduct and 
character, and there is a fee attached to the license. 

1 17. Do you know the amount of the fee ?*— It is not large } I believe about 
32 rupees. 

118. For what period are the licenses generally granted? — That I do not 
exactly recollect. I do not know whether there is any limited period* 

119. By 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

1 1 9« By whom are the licenses granted ^— -They are granted id Calcti 
by the Territorial department. 

120. Supposing an individual to be in the Upper Provinces, how does 
obtain a h'censeto remove? — He would write down to some person in C 
cutta, enclosing a letter from himself, stating who he is, and what he is, i 
where he may be heard of, requesting permission to remove to another < 
trict ; andl know of no instance where that permission has been withh 
upon a proper application. 

121. You stated, that Europeans had been allowed to trade in salt, 
terly ?^— They have been allowed to purchase it at the Company's sales at ( 
cutta. They are not allowed to interfere in the manufacture of salt. 

1S2. Does the same apply to tobacco or rice ? — I am not at all acquain 
with the tobacco trade, and I am not aware that there is any actual prohibit 
to deal in tobacco, but Europeans never do engage in it 

123. How is it with respect to beetle-nut ? — lam not aware; Ibeli( 
that is excluded by Act of Parliament ; and which Act, upon recollecti 
applies also to the article of tobacco. 

124. By the new regulations about salt, are Europeans permitted to ca 
salt up the country, and trade in it? — ^Yes, I understand that is the efiecl 
the regulation; but they must purchase it at the Company's sale 
Calcutta. 

125. Were not the regulations with respect to the dealing on the part 
Europeans in salt and beetle-nut directed originally against the dealings 
the Company's servants ? — I think so. I believe it is matter of record, tl 
in the early part of the Company's possession of the country, great abu 
did take place in the inland trade of the country. 

126. Are you aware whether any inconvenience results to the trade fn 
the inability to clear out from the minor ports of India ? — I am not persona 
aware of the fact, never having been upon the coast. 

127* Must not the exclusion of British enterprize and capital tend 
enhance the price to the consumer, and to diminish the trade which mig 
be conducted if no such restraint existed ? — I think so. 

128. You have stated, that British subjects are not permitted to hold lar 
or property on a lease or mortgage in their own names ; does this provisi 
originate in the Act of Parliament, or in a regulation of the East-India Co 
pany ?^-I believe the regulation with respect to lands is a regulation oft 
East-India Company itself; I do not believe the Act of Parliament p; 
vents it. 

129- Do you know the date of the regulation ? — There are two ; one is t 
Regulation 88 of 1793, and there is a Regulation 4S of 1795. 

ISO. Are you not aware that the Court of Directors, as early as the ^c 
1766, prohibit^ Englishmen from holding lands, and that such prohibiti< 

w 



^. I" 



U EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 1831. was chiefly directed against its own servants, who about that time Were in 

— — the habit of holding public lands, farms, and other sources of revenue ? — I 

T, Brackenj Esq. think it was ; and in a Report of the Committee of the House of Commons 

there is an allusion to that circumstance, in consequence of a communication 
from Mr. Barwell, who had wished the regulation modified, so as to admit 
<' Europeans of respectable character" to hold lands. 

131. What is the date of that Report ?^I think 1783 or 1784. 

132. Have you referred lately to the Report? — Yes, I had occasion to 
refer to it this morning. It goes to the extent of stating, that the regulation 
was chiefly applicable to the Company's servants, who were men of influence 
and of power, and who might convert that power to improper purposes j and 
that it would be an irrational regulation as applied to men who were not in 
the service. 

133. Are the natives in India aware of the restraint and disabilities under 
which British-born subjects, not in the service of His Majesty and the East- 
India Company, labour ?— Yes, they are. 

134. Must not the consequence be, in all transactions between Europeans 
out of the service and natives, to encourage the latter in a spirit of litiga- 
tion? — I do not think it goes to that extent, but I think it has a certain 
degree of prejudicial influence against Europeans out of the service.. 

135. Are you acquainted with many indigo planters? — Yes, several. 

136. Do you consider them as an eminently intelligent and respectable 
class of people ? — I think them a very respectable class. 

137. Have you any documents that enable you to speak to this point?-— I 
have not with me any letters ; but there were several addressed by the indigo 
planters, in reply to a circular issued to them by the agency houses in Cal- 
cutta, wishing to be informed of the number of begahs in cultivation, and 
the number of persons employed. From the perusal of the replies to the 
circulars, and the information contained in the letters, I should say that 
many of the indigo planters were men of extremely good information. 

138. Have you heard that the character of the indigo planters has 
been aspersed, and that they have been accused of turbulence and ill-using 
the natives ?*— I have heard that that has been alleged against them. 

139. Do you conceive that that is well founded? — Certainly not, gene- 
rally. There have been individuals that have committed violences; but as a 
body, I think the aspersion is not a just one. 

140. Do you conceive that that class of British subjects has improved in 
character, or not? — I think it has ; there are men of better education now in 
that line than there used to be. 

141. Do the indigo planters in general carry on their cultivation upon 
their own capital, or upon capital borrowed ? — ^Generally speakrilg, in the 
commencement of their career, they borrow capital. In ract, the pboctess is 

something 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

something in this w»y : an indigo planter makes an independence! and t 
sells his factory ; generally, the agent who bad been employed by the : 
indigo planter becomes the agent of the second, and advances the purcb 
money. 

142. Are there many of the indigo plantations out of debt ?— There 
more now than there were formerly. Some of the indigo factories within 
last six or eight years have got completely out of debt t others have not b 
so fortunate. 

143. What is the interest in general that is paid for loans of money u 
indigo planutions ?— It depends considerably upon the state of the mot 
market iu Calcutta, but eight, ten or twelve per cent. ; at present the rate 
interest is high, I believe ten or twelve per cent. 

144. Is a mortgage given as security? — ^Yes. 

145. Are there many houses in Calcutta in possession of indigo plai 
tions, in consequence of holding such mortgages ? — They are not acttudlj 
possession, hut they hold the mortgage papers; the planter himself i 
possession of the factory; but I believe there are few instances where th 
are advances in money to the indigo planters, where an agency bouse d 
not take the mortgage in the first instance. 

146. Is it probable, in your opinion, that the low price of indigo in Eur 
will diminish the aggregate quantity of indigo produced ?— Certainly, 
fore I \e(t Calcutta, the expectation of a low price in the home market I 
indaced the agetits to witbdnv their support from all indigo factories 
which the soil was inferior, but which had been brought into cultivat 
under the stimulus of the high prices that obtained in Calcutta. 

147. Are youaware whether it was generally understood at Calcutta, t 
directions had been. sent out by the Directors to inquire into the conduct 
the indigo planters ? — It was generally understood so, 

148. What steps were taken by the Governor General of India with re 
rence to that poiotP— A circular was issued to the judge and the magistrs 
of the different districts, to report upon the Europeans in their several ju 
dictions. 

149- Have you any means of knowing what the result of that inqu 
was ? — Not any official means. A gentleman high in office in Calcutta t 
me. confidentially, that the result has been very satisfactory to the charact 
of the indigo planters. 

150. Does not the personal comfort and success in life, of every Brit 
subject in India, whether in the service or out of it, residing in the provinc 
depend upon the conciliatory conduct and demeanour that he shows to i 
feelings and prejudices of the native inhabitants ? — Unquestionably ; a ma 
own interest would teach him that in India. 

101. Have you known any instances in which a contrary conduct has Ih 
* ?— There have been instances. 

152. Wl 



16 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

17 Feb. 1831. l<52t What has been the effect upon the individual pursuing that gon- 
— * duct?-*^I should say generally detrimental to him. 

1. Brackekf Esq. j^g^ ^i.g y^^ jj^j. ^f opinion, that the knowledge which an European has 

of the power that the Company has over him, is a considerable check to his 
exercising any such acts as you have described ? — I should think that, with- 
out that motive, he would be induced to treat the natives well if engaged in 
commercial pursuits. I should be inclined to think, that a man of very 
strong passions or infirmity of temper would be withheld by no inducement ; 
but with a reasoning mind, I think the infiuence of self-interest is sufficient 
without bringing the other motives into play. 

154. Are the indigo plantations generally conducted by agents, or by the 
parties themselves ? — The advances are made by agents, the management of 
the factory is by the planter. The planter draws upon the agent for supplies 
of money ; that is the only way in which the agent has any thing to do with 
the factory. 

155.' Have many of those indigo planters resided a considerable time in 
India ? — Many of them have. 

156. Are they chiefiy British-born subjects ? — I should think the majority 
of them were ; there are a good many Frenchmen. 

157* What is the part of the country where the indigo plantations chiefly 
exist? — Jessore, Kishnagur, and Tirhoot 

156. What is the description of soil best suited to the cultivation of indigo ? 
—It is considered, that those factories are best that are liable to inundations 
from the Ganges. 

159. Does it require a deep alluvial soil ? — ^Not very deep ; but the soil is 
much improved by the sediment that the river brings with it, or leaves 
rather, after an inundation ; but I am not acquainted with the details of 
indigo cultivation. 

160. Are there any Indo-Britons among the indigo planters ? — ^There are 
some, and as such they have some advantages, by being enabled to take farms 
and leases in their own names. One of the largest concerns in India is held 
by a gentleman of the name of Harris, who is an Indo-Briton ; in conse- 
quence of which he is enabled to hold some very large zemindaries. 

161. Have you attended at all to the trials that took place in the supreme 
court with regard to the ill treatment of natives by Europeans ? — I have read 
several. 

162. In those cases in which ill-conduct on the part of Europeans towards 
natives has occurred, has it generally been on the part of the Company's 
servants, or on the part of the free traders ? — I cannot brine to my recollec- 
tion the exact proportion of offences committed, but to the Best of my recol- 
lection there have been very few by either. 

16S. Has the number of European settlers in Bengal greatly increased 

since 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

since the opening of the free trade ?— -It has increased, but I do not ki 
to what extent ; there are several Europeans who come into Qdcutta with 
any license, and they get spread through the interior. 

164. Has any inconvenience resulted to the natives from the free resor 
Europeans to Calcutta ? — I should think not any at all. 

165. Do vou think any benefit has resulted to them from it?— -I think 
unquestionably ; wherever there are Europeans, they bring a demand 
labour. 

166. Are the most intelligent of the native inhabitants anxious for 
permanent settlement of Europeans in the country ? — I should not say 
greatest number were, but the most intelligent are. 

167. Have not they expressed it in a petition ? — There was a petitioc 
Calcutta, that was signed by a great many very respectable natives as v 
as Europeans. 

168. Can you mention the names of any of the natives ? — ^There is one 
very celebrated native, named Rammohun Roy, and there was a family 
the name of Tagores, who are great proprietors of zemindaries. 

169. Are they not all persons living in Calcutta ? — ^They are. 

170. Is there a counter petition to that ? — There is. 

171. Do you know anything of the circumstances of that petition! 
There were two petitions drawn up at the same time ; one for the coi 
nuance of the suttees, and the other for the prevention of Europe 
holding lands ; the same parties were engaged in both petitions. I oo : 
believe the petitioners were called together publicly. I had an opportuc 
of seeing both of the petitions carried about to the different offices 
Calcutta for the purpose of procuring signatures to them from the writers 1 
persons of the lower class ; in fact, I saw them in our own office. 

172. Do you know with whom either of them originated ? — The party p 
was supposed to have had the most influence in them was a native, who ! 
been a sirkar to Bishop Heber, and had considered himself as having a p 
scriptive right to be the sirkar of every bishop, but he was turned off, 2 
took offence ; he is the editor also of a newspaper at Calcutta, advocati 
the suttee. 

173. What advantages do you consider would result to the improvemi 
of India, with respect to agricultural commerce and the condition of 1 
native population, from the permanent settlement of Europeans, under j 
and equitable laws ? — I think there would be an improvement in the ma 
of agriculture, and greater habits of industry ; the example of Europe 
generally being, I think, useful to the natives. 

174. Was the first petition you have mentioned signed by any persons < 
of Calcutta? — It was not circulated beyond Calcutta; but some of 1 
natives that agned it were landholders, some of them having estates £00 

D i 



18 EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS: 

17 Feb. 18S1. 300 miles from Calcutta ; people who move about the countryi and have 
their town-houses in Calcutta. 

^' 175. At what rate of interest have the government of India borrowed 
money for some time back ?-^-I believe at five per cent of late years. 

176. At what rate of interest have the most respectable firms in Calcutta 
borrowed money? — Not under eight or nine, or ten sometimes of late 
years. 

177. Can you state any reason for that difference ? — I think it is some- 
thing connected with the want of real property there. Europeans are not 
allowed to purchase lands, and therefore it is with private security only that 
they come into the market. 

178. What do you suppose is the reason for the rate of interest on money 
advanced on indigo plantations being so high as twelve per cent. ?— There is 
considerable risk. The actual stock is mortgaged comparatively of small 
value ; even in some instances it is scarcely equal to the annual outlay ; and 
in case of a very unfavourable season^ there would be a greater deficiency, 
perhaps, than the mortgage could cover. 

179* At what rate of interest do natives in good credit at Calcutta, subject 
to the jurisdiction of the King's court, borrow money? — I believe about 
twelve per cent. 

180. What is the common rate of interest between native and native in the 
provinces not under the jurisdiction of the supreme court ? — I have under* 
stood it is much higher : I have heard it stated at as much as twenty-four or 
thirty per cent ; that is, two and a half per cent, per month. 

181. Can you explain the reason for the difference ?-— I can only attribute 
it to the want of security, the risk. 

18S. Is there such a thing as borrowing upon the security of real property 
among European merchants ? — In Calcutta there is to a small extent ; houses 
are sometimes mortgaged. 

188. Have many of the indigo planters been forced to abandon the 
business from the amount of their debts ? — Some of them have ; but I do 
not think a great many. Some of their factories have been shut up lately, 
in consequence of the fall of the indigo market of this country. 

184. Have the agency houses, in those cases, foreclosed? — It is rarely 
that the necessity of foreclosure has taken place ; the parties themselves have 
^ven up possession. 

185. Are there any restrictions or regulations that, in ybur opinion, 
continue to raise the rate of interest ? — I think that, were the capitalist 
enabled to purchase lands, and to employ his money in the purchase of real 
property, in the end it would have the effect of reducing the rate of 
interest, because he would be able to mortgage bis landed estate or his 

"'^'- 186. U 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

186. Is there any restriction in Calcutta, as to British subjects holdi 
lands and bouses ?— They hold houses in Calcutta. 

187. What is the rate of interest between indigo merchants and th 
agents?— It is about twelve per cent., but it varies ; I have known it eif 
per cent The agent is generally influenced by what he has to pay ; 
borrows money with one hand, and lends it with the other. 

188. Does not the agent, in addition to that, charf;e a large commissio 
— He does ; two and a half per cent, upon the advance, and two per ce 
upon the sale. 

189. So that the indigo planter has to pay not only an interest of twe 
per cent., but a commission of five percent, upon alt his transactions? — Y 
upon his outlay and his sales. 

190. Supposing an European were to borrow money of a native, is th< 
any restriction with regard to the interest in that case? — Yes, twelve ] 
cent, in Calcutta, and all over India. 

101. You conceive that if Europeans were allowed to possess land 
India, they would be able to borrow at a lower rate of interest than they d 
—Yes ; it being generally known that they were posses<iors of land 
property, would have the effect of making their security better. 

192. Do the natives hold a large proportion of the Company's registei 
debt? — I believe it has been ascertained lately, that they hold a very sm 
part in proportion of what was supposed. It is chiefly held by EuropeanE 

193. What system of banking is there at Calcutta ?— There is the issui 
of bank notes and discounts. 

194. Is it under any regulation ? — No, there is no regulation regardi 
private banks. 

1Q5. Either with reference to the issues or with reference to the numl 
of banks ?—l^ere is no restriction, but there is only one chartered bank 
Calcutta. The bank of Bengal is a chartered bank, in which the sha 
holders are only responsible to the extent of their capital. There are t' 
other banks: there ii one general bank, to which there are many si 
scribers ; and there is the bank of Hindostan, with which the house 
Alexander and Company is connected, 

196. What is the smallest note they issue ? — Four rupees. 

197. Do they circulate in the country ?— They go as far as Chandernagt 
and Serampore, about twenty-flve or thirty miles, but they do not circuit 
in the villages to any extent 

198. You mentioned, that the rate of interest would probably be lowen 
and the facility of obtaining credit increased, if British subjects were to he 
lands ; do you not know uiat native landholders borrow money frequent 
of each other, and frequently of Europeans, at a very high rate of intere 
at two or three per cent per month ? — I am not aware that the native pc 
mion of Urge properhr pay so high as that. I have always understoi 

D« th 




«0 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 18S1. that the very high rate of interest was applicable to people without property 

"-— at all ; because I know instances where zemindars have mortgaged their 

7 . Bracken^ Esq. zemindaries, who have only paid eight per cent and ten per cent, interest 

to Europeans, 

199- At what rate have you known Europeans borrow money upon mort- 
gage at Calcutta ? — At eight per cent. 

200. Have any banks failed lately ? — The house of Palmer and Company 
had a bank ; but they were not issuing bank notes at the time they failed. 

201. Can any house calling itself a bank issue notes at Calcutta ? — Yes, 
there is no legal impediment at present. 

202. Do they pay interest upon deposits ? — They do. 

203. At what rate ? — It varies; two and a half per cent, and three per 
cent. These are deposits liable to be withdrawn at a moment's notice. 

204. What is the usual rate of discounting bills ? — ^That varies very much 
with the credit of the parties ; I have known it from six to twelve per cent. 

205. In advances, what do they charge ? — The bank of Bengal rates are 
considered the criterion. When I left Calcutta, the houses of tolerable 
repute had their acceptances discounted at seven per cent. 

206. Do you conceive that in their dealings with the natives in carrying 
on the trade, the Company have now any other advantage over individuals 
than that which is derived from the amount of their pecuniary means ? — I 
think commercial agents have a great deal of influence in their situation, 
independently of the command of funds, though the command of funds is 
probably the most material. 

207* You spoke of an old regulation which has lately been rescinded, is 
this the rescinded regulation you alluded to (a paper being shown to the Wit- 
ness) ? — It is } it is a Regulation 9 of 1 829, repealing a Regulation 21 of 
1793. 

208. Have not the Company this overwhelming advantage over private 
merchants, that they may issue as much paper as they please ; and that they 
have been, within the last two or three years, borrowing money at five per 
cent., and issuing it without any restriction, and even paying for their 
indigo investments by issues of five per cent paper money? — ^The Company's 
treasury has been open for the last four or five years for the issue of what we 
call treasury notes, which in fact are something in the nature of exchequer 
bills ; they bear interest at from four to five per cent : I believe five per 
cent, is the rate they now bear. Of course there is no control over the issue 
of that paper beyond their own discretion. 

209* Have not those issues been known to have been made to a very 
large amount, in payment for investments of indigo, in the last two or three 
years? — ^I am not aware that they pay for indigo actually in exchequer 
notes ; but the exchequer notes being obtainable for money at the treasury, 

it 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

it has the same effect A man having a certain sum in cash, has ouljio 
to the treasury, and he can get the exchequer notes^ which run for*Bi 
months, and they pass from hand to hand as cash. . ^4. 

210. Have not the Company at the same time been sending home lili 
remittances to this country in specie t — I do not think that last year tli 
sent any specie ; the year before they made a large remittance in specie. 

211. Are there any banks in the interior, beside the three you have m\ 
tioned in Calcutta? — There are no issuers of notes. There are nati 
bankers, who are what are called shrofis, more engaged in discounting tti 
any thing else ; they issue bills of exchange, which are called hoondees. 

212. Is there much circulation of bills of exchange in the interior! 
Very great. 

213. For how small a sum are they? — I have seen them for so smal 
sum as nine rupees. An oflScer at Cawnpore wishing to remit to Calcu 
any sum, can always procure a hoondee from a shrofi^ drawn upon a shi 
in Calcutta. 

214. Do those bills of exchange circulate in the country? — ^Y^s; i 
interior inland business is conducted by hoondees. The great bahki 
houses at Benares have branch establishments in almost all the native citi 
and a very large business is conducted by hoondees. 

215. What do you suppose is the whole amount of bank note speculati 
in Calcutta ? — At present the private circulation is very limited ; indeed, 
consequence of Palmer and Company's failure, there was a run upon 1 
private banks, and their issue was in consequence very much reduced, 
fact, almost to nothing ; but the bank of Bengal escaped pretty well, a 
their issue I should imagine to be about eighty lacs of rupees. 

216. Is there any stamp or duty on bills of exchange? — There is, 
ought to be ; there is by regulation. 

217. Are the provincial bankers chiefly natives or Europeans? — Aim 
entirely natives. 

218. With respect to exchequer bills, can the holders ofthemdema 
payment of them at any time ?— Only when they become due. 

219* Is it the custom to renew them ? — Yes ; but of course not agaii 
the option of the party. 

220. Would the firm to which you belong, or any Other house of bnsin 
in Calcutta, prefer employing one of the commercial agents of the Compa 
to one of the ordinary agents ?^-I do not know that the commercial agents 
the Company would be allowed to transact any business for private house 
but we should prefer employing a man of our own. 

221. Do you consider the Company's commercial agents skilful and e< 
nomical merchants, and as such would you employ them in preference 
ordinary agents ?— I do not think, generally, the system is a good one 

whi 



22 EVIDENCE ON E AST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 1831. which they are brought up ; but I have nothing to say against the indi- 

viduals. 

. racum^ sq. ^^^ ^^ ^^^ consider the Company themselves skilful and economical 

merchants ? — I should think not 

223. You stated that there ought to be a stamp or duty upon bills of 
exchange ; is that evaded ? — ^Very much. 

224. Is it large in amount ? — The stamp itself is not very large. 

225. Is the bank of Bengal exclusively the bank of Government r— No ; 
there are private proprietors also; the Government hold, I think, three- 
hundred shares. 

226. Do they do the Government business? — No, they do not, they 
are merely a bank of discounts. The advantage they have over private 
banks is this: the Government passed an order by which the collectors 
of the districts in the neighbourhood of Calcutta, as high, I think, as 
Benares, are allowed to receive bank of Bengal notes in payment of re- 
venue } the consequence is, that the circulation of the bank of Bengal is 
very extensive through the whole of the Lower Provinces. 

227* Do the Government use no bank in their transactions? — No; the 
bank notes received by the collectors in the provinces are remitted to the 
general treasury in Calcutta. 

228. Do they keep any account with the bank ? — No private account. 

229. Is the Government supposed to be accountable for the bank of 
Bengal ?— That is the impression among the natives ; but I doubt whether 
they are answerable in law, more than to the extent of their shares. 

230. Are you not of opinion that the large proportion of the gross produce 
of the soil which goes to the Government in the shape of taxes, interferes 
materially with the rate at which individuals cultivating the soil can borrow 
money ? — Of course, any large receipts from the land must interfere with 
the value of that land. 

231. Therefore the risk is much greater to the person lending the money? 
—Of course. 

232. What proportion does the land-tax bear to the gross produce of the 
soil ?— I am not competent to state the exact amount. 

233. For what term are the bills of exchange commonly drawn in the 
Upper Provinces ? — ^They vary from fifty days* date to ninety and one hun- 
dred and one days' date ; but at fifty days date' most of the hoondees are 
negotiated in the Upper Provinces. 

234. Are there not a few estates at present held by British-born subjects 
in perpetuity^ or on a long lease ; and if so, have the goodness to enumerate 
them ? — I only know of one estate that is held by an European altogether 

in 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE op COMMONS. S 

10 his own name» aod that I believe is almost a single instance througboi 
India. 

235. What is the name of that estate? — It is an estate called FortGloste 
which is about fifleen miles from Calcutta by land ; it is an estate of aboi 
800 acres. 

236. Do you know the circumstances under which it was obtained ?— 
was a grant» I believe, originally from Warren Hastings to a Mr. Lambei 
in perpetuity, without any Government land-tax; it was granted to M 
Lambert and his representatives. That is now the property of a fir 
called Scott and Company ; but the manager is a gentleman of the nan 
of Patrick. 

237. Do you know the circumstances of that estate ? — I have been the 
often. 

238. Is it in a high state of cultivation ? — The most part of it is rice Ian 

239* Do you know whether the proprietor of that estate finds any difficul 
in obtaining tenants ? — On the contrary, he has rather a difficulty in exclu 
ing them ; he finds the people anxious to become his ryots. 

240. Do those ryots pay direct to him ? — ^They do. 

241. Do you know whether there are any estates held in perpetuity i 
the island ot Saugur ? — I do not know whether they are in perpetuity, or c 
a very long lease of 900 years ; there are several grants of land which hai 
been cleared, where there is rice growing, and where there is a large popi 
lation. 

242. Do you know any thing of the estates in the island of Saugur ?— 
have been there. One or more of the members of the firm to which I b 
long purchased from the Saugur Island Society a quantitv of land there 
they have been for the last two years clearing it. I went aown there aboi 
a twelvemonth ago, and passed a day or two in the place. There are aboi 
8,000 begahs of that particular estate cleared, and there are about four hui 
dred families resident on that part of the island. There are other estate 
which I had not an opportunity of going over, which are rather larger, an 
I suppose there may be altogether from 50,000 to 60,00Q begahs clearer 
Saugur is at the mouth of the river Hoogly. 

243. Was that at all cultivated previously to the formation of this con 
pany ? — No. An attempt had been made to clear it by an extensive con 
pany, but after expending a large sum, it seemed likely to fail, and they di 
not like to continue any further expense. Some individuals then applie 
to the parent society, if I may so call it, for parts of the island^ and agree 
to continue the clearing. 

244. Is it a fertile spot ?-^I saw no difference between the rice that wi 
produced there and any other. 

245. Is it subject to inundation ? — Not in the cleared parts now ; it wa 
and that has been the great expense. In 1822-23, after considerable sunt 

i 



24 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 1831. of money had been laid out in embankments, there was an unusually high 

tide from the sea, which carried every thing away, and created a great 

T. Braekmy Esq. additional expense to restore those embankments. 

246. What is the chief production of that land ? — At present nothing 
but rice, and a few vegetables. 

247. ^at is the extent of the island? — I do not exactly know ; I should 
think abom six or seven miles long, and a mile or a mile and a half broad in 
different parts. 

248. Has not a large sum of money been employed by different indivi- 
duals?— -A large sum in the first instance, and the result was unsuccessful; 
then the society almost left the subject, and individuals took an interest in it, 
and obtained grants of a certain portion of it, and their efforts have been 
more successful. There are two gentlemen, of the name of Campbell, who 
are in charge of large divisions of it, who are doing very well. 

249« Has there been a fair return upon the capital expended upon it ? — 
Not yet ; hitherto the ryots have had the land for clearing. 

250. Do you know anything of the cultivation of coffee in India? — I 
only know it incidentally. 

' 251. Is it in general cultivation there?— No; there have been many at- 
tempts made, but they have invariably failed. 

252. Have the attempts been made by natives or Europeans ?— -By Eu- 
ropeans. 

253. Do you know in what parts of India coffee is produced ?— Of the 
two plantations I have seen, one is in the neighbourhood of a place called* 
Keerpoy, in the district of Midnepore. 

254. Are those plantations both conducted by Europeans ? — ^They were ; 
one was a Spanish gentleman, but I understand they have quite failed. 

255. Do you know the cause of the failure ? — ^Various reasons have been 
assigned ; but I believe it is generally supposed that the Bengal sun is too 
powerful. An attempt has lately been made of planting the plantain tree 
between the coffee trees : the plantain tree having a very broad leaf, it was 
supposed that it might act as a protection to it, but I do not know the 
result. 

256. Are you not of opinion, that considering the variety of climate and 
of situations which exist in our Indian empire, it is probable that coffee might 
become in some parts a valuable product? — I cannot speak to that. 

257* Do you know to what extent coffee is produced in the other presi- 
dencies ? — ^Not at all. 

258. Is there any other product which you think might with advantage be 
introduced into India, which is not now generally grown ? — I am not aware 
of any^ 

259. Does the production of silk require a large capital ? — ^I should think 

to carry 



SELECT COMMITTEE OF the HOUSE OF COMMONS. I 

to carry it to any advantageous result it would require a very large capit 
The silk filatures are expensive establishments, and have a great deal 
building connected with them for carrying on an improved method of p 
paring the silk. 

260. Is it at present produced by ryots? — It is; but the Company ha 
been at a large expense in building filatures upon an improved constructio 

261. Are the worms fed upon the mulberry trees in India?— Yes, 

262. Would it be necessary to plant fresh mulberry trees to extend t 
cultivation of it there, or do mulberry trees abound to any extent ? — I thi 
they abound to a great extent. In many parts of India where I have be< 
I have seen large fields covered with them. 

263. Is the knowledge of the English language extending among t 
natives? — In Calcutta it is very much, and there are day-schools where t 
children learn it. 

264. Is the Ciiristian religion extending among them ? — I do not thi 
there is much extension of that. 

265. During your residence of fifteen years in India, do you know of 
single instance of the real conversion of a native of India to the Christi 
religion ?— -I cannot say that I individually know any person who has be 
converted ; but I have heard a clergyman of the name of Hill say, that 
has seen one or two villages in the neighbourhood of Calcutta, in which t 
inhabitants have shown a disposition to become converts to Christianity, 
conceive that the higher class of natives in Calcutta are getting rid of Hi 
dooism, but I do not know that they have adopted any other religion, 

266. Are you aware that silks are now imported into India from tl 
country ? — Yes, 1 am aware that they are ; piece-goods. 

267. And cottons of course ? — Yes. 

268. What duties are those goods subject to on being imported at Calcutt 
I cannot immediately recollect ; I think not more than five per cei 
ad valorem. 

269. Are not those goods imported into Calcutta duty free ? — I thii 
there is five per cent, charged upon them : it is considered, however, a ve 
moderate duty, whatever it is. I do not believe it is considered as at ; 
interfering with their importation* 

270. Is there any duty upon the importation of metals ? — Upon metah 
do not believe there is any duty, or if any, very slight indeed. 

271. Is there not a very considerable improvement going on amongst t 
younger branches of Hindoos at Calcutta? — They are becoming certain 
much better educated, and divesting themselves of many of their prejudice 

272. Do they not generally learn English ? — Those of the higher class d 
Besides public institutions, there are some few private individuals engage 
in teachine children of the higher class. 

E 27s. I 



«6 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 Feb. 18S1. 373. Do you know whether they have a debating society ? — I understand 

they have. 

racMH^ 9q. ^^^ ^^ ^^^ natives show any aptitude for learning the English language ? 

—Yes, the children are quick and intelligent. 

275. Do they learn any other language, such as Sanscrit or Arabic ? — 
Some of the higher classes, or those who are intended for the courts of law. 

276. Do they show any preference to the English language ? — I think of 
late years they have. 

S77. Who are the parties, besides the English, who are engaged in com- 
merce at Calcutta ? — There are French, Portuguese, Arabs, Jews, Armenians, 
and also people connected with the eastern islands, and Burmese. 

278. Are there many Chinese? — Not many commercial: lately two large 
ships arrived from Cochin-China, that is the first direct trade that we have 
had with that country for some time. 

279. What would be the condition of Calcutta if the whole trade were left 
to natives and the East-India Company, to the entire exclusion of British- 
born subjects? — I think it would dwindle away in the course of time. 

280. Was not the island of Saugur entirely covered with forests when 
Europeans began to cultivate it in the year 1818, and would not it have con- 
tinued so had not European capital been invested in its improvement? — 
Certainly an impulse was given by Europeans to some natives to unite in 
that society ; there are now 7>0(X) or 8,000 inhabitants on the island 
altogether. 

281. Is it not your opinion, that the trade between India and this country 
is very much limited by the operation of the heavy duties in this country ? — 
On some articles, particularly sugar and silks, and to a certain extent, cottons ; 
but I do not think our cotton is yet sufficiently good to vie with the Ameri- 
can cotton. 

282. What do you think will be the effect of laying a duty of a penny a 
pound upon East-India cotton ?— There was little or none came home last year 
from Calcutta, even without the penny } but the increase of that penny will 
make above twenty per cent, difference against the Bengal cotton. 

283. Does not it come chiefly from Bombay ?— -Now it does ; but formerly 
there were large importations from Calcutta, in I8I7 and 1818. 

284. Why has the importation of that article fallen off? — ^From the com- 
petition of the American market. 

285. Do you not conceive, supposing greater skill were to be employed in 
the cultivation of cotton, as it is in the cultivation of indigo, that the cotton 
of India might be very much improved? — I have no doubt it would ulti- 
mately. 

286» Is there any reason to imagine that it would not be as good as the 
cotton produced in the Brazils or in the United Stales of America ?-*^It 

would 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. { 

would depend upon the skill. I believe there is a particular kind of cottoi 
in India equal to any in the South Sea Islands, which I believe is the best 
but it is in a part of the country that does not belong to the Company, it i 
in the neighbourhood of the Sifhet hills. It is a very superior description ( 
cotton, and specimens of it have been shown to a gentleman of the name ( 
FinlaVy who is employed in the mills near Calcutta, which I understood h 
stated to be equal to any cotton he had ever seen ; but it is at present of ver 
limited cultivation. 

987. Is there any cotton in India that grows close to the sea, in tli 
manner that the sea cotton does in Georgia and Carolina? — Not that I knq 
of. It has been attempted in Saugur, but I understood that the expense wi 
so great in protecting it, that it failed. 

288. Are you yourself acquainted with the cultivation of cotton ?— N( 
personally. 

289. Is there not a good deal of trade between Calcutta and the Burma 
empire ? — It is increasing every year. 

^0. Can you state what are the articles imported from the Burman empire 
— Bullion and teak timber. 

29U What metals in general ? — Silver. 

292. Do you think that the intercourse has increased since the Britis 
conquest of Burmah ?— -I think it has ; but it is not a very great trade. 

293. Have you been engaged in the trade between Calcutta and China ?- 
Very largely. 

294. Is that on the increase ?— It is. 

295. What are the articles chiefly exported ?— Almost entirely opium an 
cotton ; but the Company deal more largely in cotton than private tradei 
now. 

296. What is sent in return from China to Bengal ?— Almost entirel 
bullion, or bills on the Bengal government. 

297. What do you suppose is the reason that East-India tobacco is m 
imported into this country ? — It is prohibited by Act of Parliament, or th 
duty is so very high. 

298. What is the bullion chiefly imported from *Cbina?-— Chiefly Spanis 
dollars ; sometimes in sycee silver, but the sycee silver is smuggled 



E2 Martii 



28 EVIDENCE ON EAST-JNDIA AFFAIRS : 

22 Feb. 18S1. 

T Bracken, F$q. Mortu, 22" die Februatii, 1831. 

THOMAS BRACKEN, Esq. again called in, and examined: 

299. Do you wish to correct any part of your evideace on a former day ? 
— I made a slight mistake, with respect to the duty on cottons imported into 
Calcutta. It ought to have been two and a half per cent., instead of 6ve ; 
five is only applicable to the duty on goods imported in foreign bottoms. 

300. Exclusive of the vegetable productions of the soil, what other com- 
modities do you apprehend that India is capable of producing, by more 
extensive application of British capital ? — Coal, iron ore in great abundance, 
and potash. 

301. Have you any personal knowledge of those articles ? — I have been a 
good deal interested in coal. The house to which I belong have large mines, 
in a district called Burdwan, about 130 miles from Calcutta, which are now 
worked to the extent of about 14,000 or 15,000 tons of coal aonually. 

302. How long have they been worked ? — Not more than about six or 
seven years in extensive operation. They were established about fourteen 
years ago by a gentleman, who obtained permission of the Bengal government 
to search for coals in different parts of India ; and on making a report to the 
Bengal government, they agreed to advance him a sum of money to prose- 
cute the inquiry, if they could get security. The house I belong to became 
security to government i he selected this spot as being the most eligible for 
mines. He afterwards died, and the security was called for. We became 
the proprietors of the mines, by purchase from his executor. At that time 
there was no great demand for coal, but since the introduction of steam- 
engines it has been very great indeed. 

303. What was the name of the person ? — Jones. It is principally used 
for steam-engines ; and it has also been applied lately for the purpose of 
burning bricks. 

304. Are steam-engines in extensive use in India?— They are increasing. 
There are a good many steam-boats, and engines for different purposes are 
coming out ; the East-India Company buy a large quantity of coal of us for 
their steam-boats. We send coal for tliem to Singapore, to Penang, Madras, 
and Ceylon. 

305. Has the navigation of the river been much improved by ateam-boats ? 
— As far as regards Calcutta to seaward. The tugs take ships out now with 
great fiicility. Formerly it was, perhaps a fortnight from Calcutta to Saugur ; 
DOW they get down with the aid of ^team-vessels in one or two days. 

306. Were they not often detained by the freshes in the river ? — Yes ; the 
detention arises from the very strong tides and freshes, which the steam-boatt 
enable a vessel to get over. 

307. Have 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

307. Have the government used this coal extensively in their public wor 
—Yes ; we have a contract with the government to supply them at a cerl 
rate for all purposes connected with their marine department, and also 
their mint department 

308. Is thecoal-mine conveniently situated for water carri»ge ^— It is 
the hanks of a river connected with the Hooghley ; the bends of the r: 
make the distance from 200 to 300 miles. 

309. What disUnce from CalcutU?— By land it is about ISO miles} 
the wiodiog of the river makes it nearly double. 

310. Is it Id your estimation an extensive 6eld of coal ? — Very exteos 
I should imagine ; as far as we can judge from appearances, it must exter 
great way. 

311. And of good quality r— It is. 

312. What is the thickness of the seam ?— The seam we are now worl 
is about nine feet deep. 

313. Is it near the surface ?— About ninety feet. We have found the 
sent seam so productive, that we have not had occasion to go lower, 
are carrying our galleries in every direction. 

314. How do you drain it? — With a small steam*engine. 

315. What number of people do you employ in working those mines 
From ^,000 to 3,000 people. 

316. Of what description are they? — ^The natives, the ryots; we I 
only one European in charge. The mine was in a forest, and the pe 
came in from the neighbouring villages. They have built small villages l 
the spot, and there is an extensive clearance now. 

317. Do you And the natives skilful ? — As miners they work very well 

318. What rate of wages do they receive ? — From three to four rupee 
6t. to 8s. per month, according to their merits ; some are higher than i 
but they are in the situation of overseers. 

319. Have they no other advantages except those three or four rupe 
month ? — No. 

330. What is the average rate of wages in that neighbourhood ?— I sh 
think from two rupees and a half to three and four rupees, from 5s. tc 
according to age, would be the highest rate. 

SSI. Of course, the transport of the coal from the mines to Calcutta g 
great eroplovment on the river ? — We employ a great many boat pe< 
There is only one time of the year when you can bring down coat ; 
river is shallow except during the rains, and at that time 300 or 400 1 
make three or four trips. 

322. Of what description is the iron ore you mentioned? — In the nc 
bourhood of our mines there is a quantity of exceedingly 6ne iron ore j 
I believe the better kind of iron ore is on the Madras coast. 

32; 




30 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

2S Feb. 18S1. 323, Isthateasily converted into steet ?— Not very easily; but the steel 

when made is eiceedingly good. Some specimens have been brought to this 

T. Bracken, Esq. country, and I understand that persons engaged in the trade have allowed 
that the steel is remarkably good. 

394. In what condition is the country in the neighbourhood of the mines ? 
— It is improved unquestionably i inasmuch as there is a great quantity of 
jungle removed, owiog to the villagers settling on and near the mines. 

305. To what extent has that removal of jungle been carried on ? — I 
should think three or four miles all round. There is very little land on that 
immediate spot for the growth of rice ; it is a bad soil for that purpose ; here 
and there in the hollows they grow a little, but the general appearance of the 
country is very poor. 

326. Is this part of the country subject to permanent settlement P-— -I sup- 
pose so ; we hold it under perpetual lease from the Rajah of Burdwan, he is 
the zemindar of that district, and we hold it under him. As an illustration 
of the inconvenience of the Company's regulations, we could not hold it in 
our own name, though so much capital had been invested ; and it was held 
in the name of a native servant of the colliery ; but Lord Bentinck had been 
applied to, and I understood had agreed that we should hold it in our own 
name. 

3S7. Is it a perpetual lease ? — It is a perpetual lease on paying a quit-rent 
to the Rajah of Burdwan. 

3^. Are there any other coal-mines in India except your own ? — There is 
a small one in the neighbourhood of our's ; but it is at present worked very 
little ; they have experienced great difficulty in getting the water out of it, 

S39- Are there any stone quarries P — We have also a stone quarry ; there 
are a great many in parts of the country. 

330. At what price is the coal delivered at Calcutta ? — It is delivered at 
about 90s. a chaldron. 

331. What is the difference between the price of the native coal and 
British coal, at Calcutta ?— Ships from London and Liverpool oflen bring 
coal, but not in any great quantity, and dispose of it at about- from 30s. to 
40s. per chaldron. The East-India Company sent twelve ships out with coat 
about three or four years ago, not being aware, I believe, of the existence of 
these mines ; and they had to pay a great deal more ; I have been informed, 
so high as from 8O4. to QOs. per chaldron landed in India ; it cost them that 
rate. 

3dS. Were the natives of India acquainted with coal before the opening of 
those mines? — They must have been acquainted with it, because there was 
a great quantity of surface-coal indifferent parts of India; but they had 
never sunk shafts. 

333. Does it crop out in the immediate neighbourhood of the mines ^— 
Yes, you can see it oflen in patches, but it is of a verv inferior kind, slaty. 

334. Are 





SELECT COMMITTEE ov the HOUSE OF COMMONS. I 

334. Are the natives in the babit ofiuingcoal ssfuel^— Noj very litt 
indeed in Calcutta ot the Upper Provinces. 

3S5. What fuel do they use? — In the Upper Provinces wood is too det 
and they generally use cowdung made into cakes ; in the Lower Provinc 
they use wood, brought from Saugur and the sunderbunds. 

336. Are the jungles regularly cut for that purpose ?— Yes ; there i; 
certain class that go every year, and bring np wood from the sunderbunds 

337. What is the price of wood at Calcutta?— It is now about I6 rupe 
for 100 roaunds, orS^t. for 8,000 lbs. 

338. Have the European inhabitants at Calcutta begun to use coals i 
culinary purposes ? — They have, and we have begun to send it up the count 
as far as Meerut. 

339. Should you be able to supply the upper parts of India by means 
water-carriage ?-~ We could, no doubt; but it would be expensive. Y 
have sent it up as high as Meerut, and the carriage was more than the ori( 
nal cost at Calcutta. 

340. What is it sold for at the pit's mouth ? — We have never sold it at t 
pit's mouth. 

341. Is the iron ore you mentioned in the neighbourhood of the coal ? — 
is all round that district. 

S4S. Have they begun to work it much? — The natives have always bd 
in the habit of working it there, but we have not had any regular foundri 
for working it. There has lately been an establishment set up near Madt 
for that purpose by Mr. Heath, who has obtained the permission of t 
government to establish a foundry there, for the purpose of making iron, ai 
for the purpose of making steel. 

343. What is the quality of the native iron manufactured ? — It is very i 
ferior to English manufactured iron, arising from the inferiority of the man 

facture. 

344. Are you acquainted with any fact which shows the advantage arisit 
from the settlement of Europeans in India, in so far as the settlement of tl 
disputes of natives is concerned t^^I have heard of one or two instance 
where indigo planters, residing at a considerable distance from the chi 
station, have been found useful in settling disputes of a slight character b 
tween natives i the distance from the station being so great, that they wou 
have been put to a very heavy expense in going there. 

SiS. What was the distance ? — I think it must have been about forty mite 
The planter was applied to by the natives to settle their little disputes, ai 
he was in the habit of appropriating one or two hours in the course of a vet 
for that purpose. He received the thanks of the gentleman who was then : 
Char|^ of the dbuict for doing this, as it prevented the necessity of the po< 
hwiog to go to &r i bat thb gentleroao was removed, and anothi 

gentleffli 



32 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

22 Feb. IS3I. gentleman came who disapproved of it: lie said it was an interference with 

his own duties, and the consequence was that the planter left off, and the 

T. Braeken, Esq. natives liari to go to the station. 

346. Didtheygo? — They did; but if it cost more to go than the thing in 
dispute between them, they did not go. 

3-t7. How much time did he, the planter, devote to it? — He used to 
devote two or three hours about twice a week to it I understood some 
gentlemen in the civil service have strongly recommended that respectable in- 
digo planters who live at a great distance from stations should be recognized 
by the government as acting in those places as arbitrators, and as magistrates 
under certa'n regulations. 

348. Did you understand that great benefit was conferred upon the neigh- 
bourhood by his so acting? — I have no doubt that it was of great conveni- 
ence to the individuals around. 

3'J9- Are yon aware that there are numerous arbitrators among the natives 
themselves ? — There are ; but from the great number of persons that applied 
to that indigo planter, it appeared as if they were better satisfied with his 
interlerence than with that of natives. 

350. Have you any acquaintance with the mineral wealth of India, beyond 
what you are personally concerned in ? — Not personally. I understand in the 
north-western provinces of India copper has been found, and 1 believe also 
coals are found in Bundlecund. 

351. Has the government begun to place confidence in the Europeans, and 
to employ them as agents in the management of minors' estates ? — Yes; I 
know one or two instances where a gentleman has been appointed to the 
charge of a very large estate belonging to a minor: at the recommendation 
of thezillah court, the government appointed this gentleman to manage those 
estates ; he is a medical gentleman at Bancoorah, in the Company's service ; 
but it was necessary to have a special permission for this purpose. 

3 J2. Is it your opinion that the Indo-Britons would be usefully employed 
in the various departments of government in the higher ranks? — I have 
no doubt they might be. They have not been generally employed in the 
higher branches of service, but there are many most respectable gentlemen 
among them. 

353. Do you consider them, upon the whole, as an intelligent class of 
people ? — Upon the whole, I do ; but as a body, they have not had many 
advantages. There arc individuals among them, I believe, capable of filling 
any situation. They are at present prevented from holding the situations of 
what are called the Company's covenanted servants, and probably, from the 
want of encouragement, they are not so well qualified as others. In almost 
the whole of the offices in Calcutta the clerks are native bom. 

354. Do they hold all offices that a British subject can hold, except such 
British servants as are covenanted servants of the Company? — They do. 

3i5 Have 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 3 

355. Have they not the advantage besides of being able to possess land t 
any extent?— They have ; and that has given them great advantage, wher 
ever they have been in the situation of indigo planters, from being able t 
hold zemindaries. 

356. Are any of those gentlemen indigo planters in the commission of th 
peace ? — Not that 1 am aware of 

357. Would it not be very desirable that many of them should be intruste 
with that office ?—l think it would. One of the best police magistrates i 
Calcutta was an indigo planter. 

358. Are there not many among the Indo-Britoos who are well qualifie 
to hold situations in the commission of the peace ? — Unquestionably. 

359. Are there not many of them in respectable mercantile situations ?- 
There are. 

360. Have you resided any considerable time in' the interior? — Not t 
reside long at any one spot ; I have been in the habit of constantly movin 
about, within 80 or 100 miles of Calcutta, and I have visited the Uppf 
Provinces. 

361. Do you not conceive that the indigo planters have the means t 
ascertaining; the feelings, and habits and manners of the people, more tha 
other parties who are in more elevated situations in the country ? — They ar 
in closer contact, and they live upon greater terms of familiarity than genth 
men of official rank. 

363. Would not that give them considerable facilities in settling dispute 
between the natives ? — l^a minor extent unquestionably it would ; but the 
could not devote their lime to any very important cases. 

363. Are not the natives in general upon a more confidential footing, an 
more unreserved in their conduct with gentlemen not in the Company' 
service, than with those that are in it? — The majority are, unquestionably 
because they approach them more upon a footing of equality. 

364. Is it not true that the Indo-Britoos are excluded from all offices ( 
great responsibility and of great emolument? — Undoubtedly they are e: 
eluded from all offices of great responsibility and of great emolument. 

365. Are they in the same situation in that respect with the native inhab 
tants, Hindoo and Mohammedan?— In the same. I believe there are n 
situstioDs which the Hindoo might hold, which the Indo-Briton might n( 
bold; unless, perhaps, law appointments in the courts. 

366. Whenyou left India, were not the Company borrowing funds at fi\ 
per cent ?— Tney were. 

367. Were they not at the same time remitting home bullion to this coui 
49?!— Idooot think they were remitting bullion immediately when I cam 
ftwsy J ithey had been a few months previously remitting a very large sum. 

F 368. Hav 



S4, EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

2i Fell. ISSJ. 368. Have they not sent home coDsiderable quantities of indigo?— They 

, .99 ggy Were not the treasury bills which they issued applicable to all pur- 
poses as cash ? — They were. 

S70. Were not those sums so borrowed for the purpose of being remitted 
to this country ? — Part of them, I conclude, were. 

371. Are you aware that they are about to pay off their bonds here bearing 
three per cent, with that money borrowed at five per cent ? — I see an adver- 
tisement that they have called in their bonds at three per cent., with an inten- 
tion to reduce the interest to two and a half per cent. ; but I can scarcely 
suppose that they are proceeding only upon that ground, otherwise it cer- 
tainly appears strange to borrow at five to pay off that which bears interest at 
three. 

372. Are you aware that there are large territorial charges which are paid 
here ? — Yes, I am aware of that by the published papers. 

37-3. Itis presumed that you cannot tell what the money was appropriated 
to that was sent home? — No, I cannot tell. I only know it was sent home, 
and their bonds here were carrying an interest of three per cent 

PETER GORDON, Esq. called in, and examined. 
P- Gordun, K*g. 374. You have commanded ships in the Indian sea? — I have. 

375. Wlien did you first go to India, and how long is it since you returned 
from thence ? — I went in 1810, and I have been returned three months. 

376. In what capacities and situations have you been employed in India? 
— As a country officer, commander, supercargo, shipowner, and as farmer 
of the Company's revenues at Ramnad. 

377. Is that the southern point of India opposite to Ceylon ? — Yes. 

378. Were you also employed in the island of Saugur? — I was; three 
months. 

379. Will you state what parts of India you visited ? — Calcutta, Madras, 
Bombay, Bushire, Mushcat, the Isle of France, Bourbon, the Cape, fiata- 
via, the west coast of Sumatra, Fulopenaog, Malacca, Singapore, Pulocon- 
dore, Bencoolen. 

380. Have you ever been io Japan ? — At JeddoBayand atOchotsk; I have 
been also in Persia, and along the Coromandel and Malabar coast 

381. What parts of the interior of the British territory have you visited? 
—The Camatic, and Southern Poligar countries. 

383. Have you ever been at Canton ? — I have never been there. 

383. Have you been at Ceylon ?— Frequently. 

384. And at various of the foreign Indian settlements ? — Various, as Pondi- 
clierry, Karical, Goa, Sadras, Tuticoreen. 

385. What 





SELECT COMMITTEE or thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 3 

38^. What part of India are you best acquainted with ? — The dties c 
Calcutta, Madras Bombay^ the kiogdoma of Tanjore, Madura, Ramnw 
Shevagunga. 

386. Are you acquainted with the languages of India ?< — Slightly wit 
Hindostanee^ Tamul, and Malay. 

S87. Have you paid much attention to the commerce of India ?-<-I have. 

388. Has the opening of the free trade of India generally extended tl 
commerce with that part of the world ?— It haa. 

389- What parts of India have been chiefly influenced by it ^— All part 
principally Calcutta. 

390. What has been Uie e^ct of the free trade upon the commerce of Ci 
cutta? — It lias injured the re-export trade at Calcutta, but greatly increau 
the import andexport trade.. 

391. Previously to the opening of the free trade, was not Calcutta a sort ' 
emporium ? — It was. 

392. Was not it almost the sole port from which any large commerci 
enterprises were carried on ? — It was. 

393. Notwithstanding the change that has taken place in the trade, has tl 
whole trade of Calcutta increased or decreased ? — Increased considerably, 

394. Can you state to what extent ?— I have not the report of the extern 
commerce with me ; but I have it at hand, up to 1830, 

395. Have any of the branches of the commercial intercourse of Calcut 
suffered from the opening of the free trade ? — Yes } the country .atuppii 
interest of Calcutta has suiTered. 

396. Should you say that the shipping interest of India generally h 
suffered from it, or only that of Calcutta ? — Merely that of Calcutta has bet 
affected by it. 

397. Has not the competition of the ships of Great Britain tended to inju 
the shipping interest previously existing at Calcutta ?— It has. 

398. Did not the circumstance of Calcutta being an emporium arise fro 
the restricted nature of the trade which was carried on with that part of tl 
world P — It did, entirely, 

399. What was the price of freight from CalcutU to England in 1813 ai 
1814, and what is it at present ?-^In 1814 I came home io a ship charter 
by the Company at £25 a ton ; the ship in which I arrived at present is 
low as 90s. a ton. I have known freights at SO guineas a ton 00 tbe Coi 
pany's ships, before the opening of the trade ; it is as low as \5a. a ton 
present. 

400. Can you give the Committee the effect of the high and low freigh 
opon the price of merchandize ?— Every article feels it. The strongc 

ipl^ perhaps of import into England is the article of cotton-wool, whi< 
Fa cou 



36 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS : 

22 Feb. 1831. could not possibly be brought from India at the high rate of £20, or £30, or 

_. ,."~" ^ £50 a ton, and therefore the supply of England with cotton-wool was left 
I . GoTifoii, E,q. g„^i,.^,y t^ j,^^ Atlantic trade. 

401. What is the difference of price? — It was formerly about 1^. 3(/., and 
it is now 5d. 

402. What was the price of pepper, and what is it now? — One shilling to 
\5d.y and it is now as low as 36^ 

403. Do you conceive that the owners of ships have suffered in proportion 
to the great fall of freight ?— They have not in Calcutta ; for when they 
found their ships a losing concern, from their expensive blocks and high 
capital, they sold off their ships to English shipowners ; and the same ships 
which were sailing out of the port of Calcutta, are now sailing out of the port 
of London. 

404. How are the Company's ports at present supplied with arms and 
ammunition ? — By application to the arsenals of the Company. 

405. Can private individuals export arms and ammunition ? — They 
cannot. 

406. Has that any effect in throwing the trade in arms and ammunition 
into the hands of foreigners ?— It has; they are supplied chiefly by the 
Americans, on the west coast of Sumatra, Cochin China, and Siam. 

407. Are those required for export to the Eastern Archipelago? — The 
Americans trade on the west coast of Sumatra, and at Siam and Cochin 
China, and they procure cargoes which will not be sold for money to English 
ships, because arms are so much desired. 

408. Then none but the Company are allowed to import into the British 
Indian ports cargoes of ammunition ?— None. 

409* But the Americans carry on a trade to Sumatra and Siam in those 
articles ?— They do. 

410. What interests in India were most benefited by the opening of the 
free trade ? — Europeans procure European articles at a much cheaper rate 
than they did formerly ; and the natives obtain better prices for their produce 
than they did formerly. 

411. Has the opening of the free trade given rise to the introduction of 
any new articles of European produce into the consumption of India ? — It has; 
spelter especially, and cotton goods also. At the opening of the trade, 
Calcutta exported to London two millions sterling in cotton piece goods, and 
at present it receives from England two millions sterling of British manufac* 
turcd cotton. 

412. Do you conceive that the consumption of British piece goods is 
increasing or decreasing ? — ^Increasing very rapidly in every* viUage of India, 
and cotton-yarn is increasing very rapidly indeed ; it has not been introduced 
above five or six years. 

413. Are 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS, i 

413. Are there any daw commodities that have been exported from Ind 
since the openiog or the free trade ^— Many drugs and dyes, especially li 
dye and paddy, which is uncleaned rice ; lac, in every stage, especially tl 
coarser kinds as stick lac. 

414. Can you state the amount of the export of lac dye in any year ?— 
has been to a considerable amount 

41^. Was there any exported previously to theopening of the trade?- 
Very little, if any. 

416. Is there any other thing in which a new trade has sprung up ?— Noi 
others occur at present. There is the export of Bancatin; that has bet 
imported into England direct from the eastward, and also by the way 
Calcutta. 

417. Has the commerce of Madras sustained a similar increase with th 
of Bengal since the opening uf the free trade?— It has not. 

418. Is the foreign trade of Madras, and other parts of the Coromand 
coast, considerable ?— It is not considerable j it is a mere coasting trad 
principally supplying Coromandel rice to Madras for the consumption of th 
city. 

419. Is there any good harbour at Madras ?— There is no good harbo 
along the Coromandel coast. 

430. Have the native inhabitants, living under the Madras presidenc 
begun to consume cotton goods, and other British manufactures, ezte 
sively? — They have, according to their means, which are extreme 
limited. 

421. Do you conceive that the inhabitants under the Madras presidem 
are in less easy circumstances than the natives of Bengal ? — The farmers 
Madras are much worse off than the cooleys or the porters of Calcutta, wi 
regard to both food and clothing. 

42S. Can you state the day wages of a cooley at Calcutta ?~-Tbe wag 
paid for them are about five or six for a rupee. Europeans pay about 4-d. 
day for a cooley ; but they are under a system of constant advances to i 
sircars, and therefore the cooley himself receives mere subsistence. 

483. What is the price of day labour at Ramnad, where you resided ?■ 
For a double fanam, which is not equal to 4<d., three stout men or five womi 
to work from sunrise to sunset. 

4S4. Do they work hard for that ?— Very hard indeed, much more th; 
the Bengal cooleys. 

445. Can you state what proportion their labour wouUl bear to that of E 
ropeans ?.^Equal to that of Europeans. 

446. Do they receive any food besides ?— No, they have no other alio 
ance whatever ; it is never the custom to give food in India. 

4«7. How are those people fed and clothed ?— Before daylight the poori 

clt 



38 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

22 l<eb. 1831. ^i^ss make a soup of the leaves of wild trees, at noon the same, and at supper 

^ they make their only substantial meal of canary seed, or Indian com or grain, 

l\ Crarfffmy Esq, n,uch coarser than that ; and perhaps, once a week they indulge in a meal 

of rice. 

428. What clothing do they wear ? — The men wear a strip of cotton cloth 
between their legs, and the women, round their loins, a small piece of dirty 
torn cloth, often a piece of gunny bag. 

429. Does not the narrow sea, lying off the coast of Madura, between that 
and Ceylon, abound with fish ? — It does. 

430. Is that fish used by the natives? — It is, whenever they can get it. 

431. Is there any duty paid to government upon that fish ? — ^There is by 
law ; it is a transit duty on its passing the custom-house at Ramnad, but 
actually it is levied whenever fish is taken, before it is landed, at every village 
along the coast. By law, it is five per cent, on the valuation ; but I have 
known frequently instances where one-half of tlie fish was taken away from 
the people on the pretence of the custom duty. 

432. By whom was that taken ? — By the farmers of the inland customs 
and their servants, and by their unpaid servants. 

433. Those farmers being natives ? — ^Yes. 

434. Are the peasantry of Madras in worse circumstances than those of 
Ceylon ? — Much worse. 

435. Is not Ceylon under the King's government ? — It is. 

436. Are famines or scarcities common in the Madras country ?— Scarcities 
are very frequent, and famines are common also. 

437. From what cause arising ? — From drought. 

438. Is there frequently a failure of rain in that part of India ? — Fre- 
quently. 

439. What is the nature of the commercial intercourse carried on by sea, 
between the Bengal and the Madras presidencies? — ^Naturally, it is an export 
of grain from Calcutta to Madras, and an import of salt from the Coromandel 
coast into Calcutta. 

440. Are you aware of any circumstances which impede this natural 
trade ? — The monopoly of salt in Bengal. 

441. How does it operate in that way? — By depriving the merchant of 
the natural channel of returns. 

442. Can salt be produced in large quantities on the Coromandel coast ? 
— It is naturally produced in immense quantities, by solar evaporation. 

443. Is that salt of good quality ? — It is good strong coarse salt. 

444. How is the salt produced in the Bengal provinces ?— By collecting 
the surface earth, and very often ploughing the banks of the river to increase 

the 



SELECT COMMITTEE op thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. i 

tbedepOBh, and filtering! the water through it, and boiling the brine in 
salt 

445. What iff the difference of cost between producing the salt at Madr 
and at Bengal ? — At Madras the Company purchase it of manufacturers, 
low as three fiuthings a bushel, and at Calcutta they purchase it at a shillii 
a bushel. 

446. What should you say was the difference of quality between the sa 
of Madras and the salt of Bengal ? — The Madras salt is preferable ; but tl 
natives pay a higher price for the Bengal salt, as it is more bitter, and 
small quantity goes a great way. 

447. Is the production of sah in the Madras territory a monopoly in tl 
hands of the Company ? — It is. 

448. How are they able to presterve that monopoly?— By a branch 
police under the management of the salt agent. The police of the count 
is divided into three branches, one branch of which is under the manag 
ment of the salt agent, and it is called the salt police. 

449. Does not salt naturally form upon the rocks and shores of the Cor 
mandel coast?-— It does, in large quantities, and very quickly ; and for tl 
purpose of preserving the monopoly the natives are forced to destroy i 
1 1 is one of the services of the salt police to enforce that. 

450. Is it possible when salt forms in such masses to preserve the mon 
poly entirely ? — Without a very rigid police it would be impossible ; bi 
under existing circumstances, I suppose it is very little indeed infringed t 
the natives unemployed, and the infringement is chiefly by fraud in the sa 
officers. 

451. Must not the expense of the preservation of that monopoly be vei 
considerable ?-— It is very considerable, and the Company state that the 
derive no profit whatever from the price at which it is sold to the ships su] 
plied to Bengal and the eastward. 

462. What do you conceive is the object of the preservation of that mon 
poly ?— In aid of the salt system of Bengal ; principally to prevent tl 
introduction of salt into Ben^. 

453. Is the quantity of shipping employed in the general commerci 
intercourse between the presidencies of Bengal and Madras increasing < 
decreasing ?«— Decreasing. 

454* Does that arise from the salt monopoly ? — It does. 

455. Supposing the monopoly of salt were no longer to continue, won 
there not be carried on an extensive intercourse between Madras and tl 
Bengal provinces p-^Very extensive, indeed ; no ship would return emp 
to Calcutta. 

456. How does the salt monopoly operate to decrease the trade? — ^Tl 
salt trade would be much larger; every ship which returned to Beng 

won 



40 . EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

■32 Feb. 1831. would touch upon the Coromandel coast* and 611 up vith salt. One cause 

of the trade decreasing is the salt monopoly, and the other is the increased 

"**"' **■ cultivation of the Camatic, which has taken place since it has been in a 
peaceable state. 

457. Were not the Bengal regulations at one time more liberal than they 
are now with respect to the import of salt ? — They have varied considerably. 
At present it is limited to a certain quantity ; and last year a great number 
of ships on their return from the Isle of France, and other parts, who had 
calculated on filling up with salt, called, and were refused salt, and they 
arrived at Calcutta in ballast, to their very great detriment. 

458. What would be the natural import from the Bengal provinces into 
Madras ? — They would carry rice into Madras. 

459. Is not the Madras presidency, upon the whole, in the habit of im- 
porting a portion of its food ? — It is. 

460. Is not that part of India subject to great droughts ? — Very much so. 
4t)l. Of course, at periods of drought they require larger importations of 

grain P^Much larger. Tlieir subsistence, in fact, depends upon Bengal, 
and in 1834 there was great mortality in consequence of the droughts. 

463. In a season of drought, would there not be peculiar facility in pro- 
ducing salt? — Much greater than common. 

463. If the trade in salt were free, would not it tend to increase the 
export trade from Bengal ? — It would ; they could afford to sell it much 
cheaper. 

464. Are you aware whether the natives have any dislike to salt that has 
crossed the st-a ? — I am not aware that they have. They prefer Callanimuc, 
which is the black salt of the Ganges; but I understand that it is in conse- 
quence of its bitter quality, and not from any religious prejudice in favour 
of salt made from water of the Ganges. 

465. Would it not answer to export salt from this country ?— It would. 
It is continued at the present time to a very limited extent, paying three 
rupees a maund duty (6s. per 8S lbs.), which was intended as a prohibitory 
duty ; but the English salt is so very pure, that even at that price it enters 
the market. 

466. Is not Muscat rock salt imported into Calcutta ? — By a treaty with 
the Imaum of Muscat, every ship from Muscat to Calcutta has the privilege 
of importing 500 maunds of rock salt, and 1,000 maunds into Bombay. 

467. Supposing the salt monopoly to be abolished, do you conceive there 
would be any export of salt from England to India?— A very great propor- 
tion of the supply of Bengal would be from Liverpool and Bristol. 

468. Can you state what is the highest price that you have paid for rice at 
Ramnad ? — The highest is 130 pagodas a garce, which is equal to 9,000 lbs. 
or 10,000 lbs. ; and the lowest is 30 or 40 pagodas, or from one penny tu 

one 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4 

one farthing the pound. 1 have not bought it at the price I have last tnei 
tioned. but it was offered at that in the year lSi.i, and refused ; the variatic 
took place iu about twenty months. 

469> What do you consider the principal Impediments to the growth < 
the trade of India? — The insecurity of persons and property. 

470. Do you conceive that the prohibition on tlie part of Europeans ■ 
hold land considerably affects that trade ? — It does. 

471- Are there not restraints imposed upon the intercourse between 01 
presidency and another ?— Duties are levied, a^ between foreign states. 

472. Is there any duty paid upon the fishing boats?— There is, on tl 
coast of Madura. 

473. Is a fishing boat trading from one port to another subject to ar 
duties?— It is. 

474. Of what nature are. those duties'— Anchorage and clearance; tht 
are under the necessity of taking out a clearance in passing from one villa^ 
to another, even for a cargo of firewood. 

475. What are the nature of the duties which are paid upon its passin 
from one part of the Company's territory to another? — Transit duties. 

476. Are there any paid upon the entrance into a town ? — ^Yes, at the cit 
of Madras ; and there is a provincial duty different from the transit duty, i 
the whole territory at Malabar and Canara ^ and market duties are also pai 
throughout the territory, independently of the town duties, which are levie 
only at the city of Madras. 

477. Are there several custom-houses that goods have lo pass in goin 
from one part of the country to another?— Many ; they are in every village 
they are called choukies. 

478. Is there not considerable delay arising from that circumstance ?- 
There is a very great delay. No kind of merchandize is allowed to pass an 
of these establishments without paying a fee, even where duty is nt 
chargeable. 

4-79. Is that a fee regulated by law? — It is not, it is expressly prohibite 
by law. 

480. Are not the bales of goods subject lo be opened ateachofthos 
places?— They are. 

481. How are the bales commonly packed for export? — For Ian 
carriage, loosely packed in general ; for export, they are screwed and lashet 

40. Does it not happen, that when goods are brought from the interic 
for export to the coast, they are packed at the place whence they are mad 
up ?— Never, I believe. 
488. Are the rates of pilotage and mooring charges heavy in Indian ports 
At Calcutta they are very heavy ; upon the Coromandel coast, there bein 
G n 



p. GanhHt Etq. 



4i EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS r 

22 Feb. 1831. no river, there is no pilotage, and the anchorage is moderate when applied to 
large ships, but it becomes very expensive when applied to small ones. 

484. Is there any difficulty in passing the sea customs? — Not in cotopari- 
son with land customs. 

485. Is there not an unneces-sary delay tn both the one and the other ? — In 
obtaining clearances for ships, I have been six weeks in obtaining clearances 
for vessels : the vessel has been at Calcutta, nearly unloaded, before the 
port clearance was given for Madura. 

486. Suppose a merchant at Moorshedabad in Bengal wishes to export a 
quantity of raw silk to Madras, what duties does he pay? — Seven and a half 
per cent, transit duty, and in a foreign bottom to Madras, I think 7^ per 
cent, more; and on importation to Madras, 8 per cent. If in an English 
vessel, I am not certain that there would be an export duty from Calcutta, 
but there would in a foreign vessel, therefore it would be 15j or S3 per cent. 

487. Supposing a part of the same silk to be exported from Madras to 
Negapatam in the same presidency, would it be charged with any duty? — 
Bylaw it would not be charged with any duty, but in fact it would be. 

488. Why would it ? — It is the constant practice to do so. 

489. Do you know what the amount of that duty is ?— Eight per cent, upon 
its export. 

490. By whom is that chained ? — By the native servants in the custom- 
house. 

491- Are you aware whether that practice is generally known by the col- 
lector, or not?— In the southern provinces, at Tanjore and Madura, it is 
known to exist, and has been represented, but not remedied. 

492. How is it at Madras? — I cannot say at Madras. 

i9S. Do you know that a duty would be paid at Madras upon the export ? 
— Most likely it would be paid in the southern provinces, not at Madras, but 
on its import into Tanjore and Madura. 

494. Are you not aware wliether that export duty would be paid at 
Madras, or not?~I am not. 

495. But the import duty would be paid?^-Such charges have been made 
to me several times. 

496. Are those charges illegal ?•— They are. 

497. Supposing British iron to be exported from Madras to any other part 
of tile Madras presidency, would it pay a duty on its import into the other 
port ? — At Madura ft was charged with duty actually Iti per cent, upon its 
value, though covered by a free pass from Madras. 

498. Did you pay that duty ? — I did not } I resisted it, and the collector 
(lid not enforce the claim ; but afterwards he continued to enforce the claim 
on the natives, and continued it till the time of my quitting, 

499. Did 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. ■ 

499- "Old the natives pay it. although you resisted it > — They did. 

500. Supposing the same iron should be sent to Malabar or Canant, wou 
it pay any turther duty? — It would, according to the tariff of Canara 
Malabar. 

501. Are both those places under the Madras presidency ? — ^They are. 
would not pay by law ; but the uriff by law is allowed to be higher than 
the other provinces, fur the Act of Parliament passes iron free to India. 

d02. Would it be revalued by the local tariffi^— It would t and by lot 
regulations it does pay a higher duty, although the Act of Parliament pasi 
it free throughout Indiu. 

503. What Act of Parliament do you refer tor^I am not certain wbetl 
it is the 53d of Geo. III. : it is either by an Act of Parliament* or by 
arrangement between his Majesty's Government and the Company. 

50i. Dues the sea and inland system of customs differ at Malabar a 
Canara from that whicli prevails in the other parts of the presidency of ^ 
dras?— It does. 

505. Can you state the reason of that?— I cannot. 

^06. How long has Canara been in the possession of tlieCompany?.^(J 
wards of thirty years; it was uken from Tippoo Saib, in 1792 or 1799. 

907. What number of inland custom stations exist in tbe district of A£ 
dura ?— Twenty-one. 

508. Is that the whole of the custom-house stations ?■— It is tbe whole 
the legalized stations i but every one of these, of its own authority agair 
law, has at least five inferior mettoo stations established in it* where tli 
collect duties the same as at the legal sutions. 

509. Are those sutions farmed r— They are; always to natives. By 1 
they cannot be farmed to Europeans. 

510. Are the custom-house officers generally servants of the individi 
who tiarms tbe customs ?— Always ^ he employs his relatives and dependen 
and any person he pleases under him. 

511. Can you state the manner in which the duties are levied from t 
inhabiunts of the country by the revenue farmers? — In every manner th 
please. 

31*. Are there not often very great acts of oppression ? — The grossest p 
sible, seizing on the natives and punishing them at pleasure. 

513. Are tbe revenue farmers generally wealthy and substantial? — ^Nev 
They are always men of straw put forward occasionally by a substantial p 
son, but no person of respectability will come forward as a revenue farmer 
hn own name. 

Slit. How are tbe customs generally let to those farmers ? — By a biddi 

at die collector's office, nominally by auction, but any tender is received. 

G8 515. Wl 



44 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

Feb. 1881. 515. What security do they give? — A security of two names, and an ex- 

^ amination takes place ; but when a defalcation takes place, which is generally 

aordonjEsq. ^j^^ ^^^^ ^j^l^ almost every renter, I have known the property of the renter 

and his securities produce less than 1^. each. 

516. Do the natives often complain to the collectors of the exactions of 
the revenue farmers ? — They never complain. 

517. Does the system you have alluded to relate to inland customs entire- 
ly ? — It does ; the sea customs are never farmed* 

518. Are they superintended by Europeans? — Occasionally. 

519. Can you state what number of native officers there are attached to 
the different stations in Madura? — The single station of Ramnad has up- 
wards of fifty persons collecting. 

520. Do you know the number of the custom-house officers of the zillah 
of Madura ? — One thousand. 

521. What is the population of Madura? — Under the collector of Ma- 
dura there are near 1,000»000 souls. 

522. Do you know the area of Madura ? — I do not : it has 120 miles of sea 
coast. 

523. Are there sea customs established in Madura ? — There are four sea 
customs choukies. 

524. Are those sea customs choukies under the management of natives or 
Europeans ? — Natives entirely. 

525. How many European officers for the management of the revenue are 
there in Madura? — One collector of Madura, occasionally a sub-collector of 
Ramnad, and an assistant to the Collector of Madura; sometimes also, a 
young man as second assistant : but it is very seldom that they are all resi- 
dent in the district, and at the time I was there, I believe not one could 
speak a sentence of the language the greater part of the time. 

526. Are the abuses as frequent in the sea customs as they are in the land 
customs ? — They are not, not being farmed. 

527* You were understood to say, that you had more than once paid cus- 
toms illegally exacted, and that by native servants ? — I have. 

528. Did you make any representation to the government of that exac* 
tion ? — I did frequently to the Madras government, also to the collector of 
Madura. 

529* At what period was the latest ? — Several representations are contained 
in this pamphlet which I have in my hand. The latest representation which 
I remember to have made was dated the I6th March 1828, to the principal 
collector of Madura. 

530. Did you ever make any representation to Government about the cus- 
toms ? — Many to the Board of Revenue prior to 1828. 

531. What 



WiB.—JBi. 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 

531. Whnt answer did you receive ?—1)ifiereot answers, which are co 
tained in this pamphlet 

3Si. What was the general substance of the answers: — In one case the 
was an offer of remission of the amount which had been exacted ; but it w 
so inadequate to the injury I sustained, that I declined receiving it. 

535. Have any measuren been taken to remedy the evil ? — None. I kno 
to the contrary, that every thing goes on on the old system. 

534. What is the book to which you have just referred ?— It was print. 
in Calcutta ; it is intitled " Official Correspondence," detailing the dispul 
which have taken place between myself and the Madras government. 

5S5. You stated that the transit of iron throughout India was allowed 
be free by some Act of Parliament, or by some arrangement between } 
Majesty's Government and the Company ; on what authority do you ma.. 
that statement? — On the public regulations issued at Calcutta, Madras, ai 
Bombay, about the time of the opening of the free trade, admitting tl 
British staples duty free, metals, woollens, and naval stores. 

536. Is that regulation not carried into effect ?— It is not 

597. Have you ever had occasion to make any representation as to tl 
non-execution of those regulations ? — Frequent representations to the Madr 
government, to the Board of Revenue, also to the Governor in Council 
Madras, and to the collector at Madras. 

538. What is the nature of the answers you have received ? — Not sat 
factory. 

539. Did they admit your construction of the regulation ? — ^There can I 
no dispute, it is so plain. I shall be happy to lay me whole correspondent 
before the Committee. 

540. When you spoke of the insecurity of persons and property, to wh 
did you particularly allude ?— Every person can be transmitted at tl 
pleasure of each government, and his property of course is ruined by h 
transmission. 

541. You spoke of the exportation of Banca tin ; is any tin exported fro 
the territories which have been purchased from the Dutch a few years age 
from Malacca ? — Sallengore produces tin, but I cannot speak positively c 
that subject with regard to Malacca. 

548. You stated, that sixteen years ago the price of pepper was 1*. to Is. 3 
H pound, and now it is 3</. ; are you aware of the duty now paid upon Eas 
India pepper ?— 1 am not, but I considered those prices to be the prices < 
pepper in oond in both cases. 

343. Are you not aware that the duty now paid is the same as it w: 
then ?— I am not 

M4. Are you not of opinion, that although the cotton manufactures i 
thu coontry ve greatly cheaper than those of India, yet that the Ind 

manufactui 



46 EVIDENCE ON EAST INDIA AFFAIRS: 

22 Feb. 1831. manufacture is greatly superior ; that it wears better and lasts longer ?*--The 

"~ manufactures of India are of every degree of durability. Of course, the 

. Tordm^ Esj. ^^^^ durable are exported to England ; flimsy manufactures will not bear 

the expense of transit, but in India, cloths of every texture are made for the 

use of the natives. 

54f5. Whilst the natives of India are in the state in which you have de« 
scribed them on the Coromandel coasts is it of much importance to them 
whether there is a free trade or not to England ? — Their condition cannot 
be worse than it is at present. 

546. Would they remain in the same miserable condition* provided the 
restraints which at present exist with respect to trade and settlement in 
India were removed? — They would, if the same revenue system is enforced^ 

547. What is the state of health and bodily strength of those inhabitants 
on the Coromandel coast ?•— It depends a great deal on their caste. The 
Mussulmen are as stout a race of people as we ourselves are ; the lower 
class of Hindoos are small people and very weakly indeed, and very short- 
lived : it is rare to see a woman above thirty years of age. 

548. Have you had many opportunities of becoming acquainted with the 
interior of India ? — In the district of Madura I have been living entirely 
among the natives, never seeing an European for months together ; and 
also I have been much in Tanjore. 

549* Is not the situation of the natives at the difierent presidencies greatly 
superior to that which you have described in the interior ? — In the cities it 
is very superior ; and they would flock in crowds to the cities to work as 
coolies, but they are prevented by the police : they are seized, and sent 
back to till the lands on which they were bom. 

550. Is the territory of Madura fertile ?— It is, when watered ; its fertility 
depends entirely upon watering. 

551. What are the chief products of that territory? — Grain, cotton, 
tobacco. By grain I mean rice and coarser grains, in large quantities. 

55i, Is sugar grown there ?— *It is not : I am not aware that it could be 
grown in the district of Madura. 

553. Is artificial irrigation carried to a considerable extent there ?— The 
whole cultivation is more or less by means of artificial irrigation ; either by 
embanking the field to save the water which falls upon it, by leading the 
water from rivers, or by saving it in tanks. 

554. Are there extensive tanks in Madura? — There are. 

555. Are they of recent or of ancient construction ?— Of ancient con- 
struction. 

55fi. Are they under the management of government? — Entirely. 

557. What 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4 

557. What sort of repair are they in ? — ^The worst possible ; merely 1 
serve the purpose of a year. 

558. Supposing that branch of rural economy were more attended t 
would not the fertility of Madura be greatly increased ? — Greatly. 

559' Are the works for irrigation in the province of Madura equal 
those of other countries of Asia which you have seen ? — Not in their prese 
state. 

560. How are they with reference to those of Persia ?— Inferior. 

561. Have you visited tiie province of Tanjore ? — Frequently. 

662. Is that fertile ? — It is the most fertile district of India, next 
Burdwan. 

5(iS. Does that arise from its irrigations ? — The soil is of good qualit 
but the fertility depends entirely upon the supply of water. 

564f. What is the amount of the diiSerence between the value of land th 
is irrigated, and land that is not irrigated? — The whole value of lai 
depends upon the supply of water, the lands are of no value whatever unle 
watered ; every land which can command water is of some value. I ha' 
known the most valuable gardens in Persia cut down, merely because tl 
water-springs failed. 

565. Do you conceive that in all parts of India irrigation might be carrie 
by a proper expenditure of capital and skill, to a much greater extent ths 
it is now carried ? — ^To a much greater extent 

566. For what species of products is irrigation required ? — Particular 
for rice ; and even what are called dry grains require a degree of irrigatio 

567. Are there not considerable streams that fall from the ghauts?- 
There are. 

568. Are they properly economized ? — ^ITiey are not. 

569^ Is there, or is there not, a large field for the application of capital 
economizing the water that falls from the higher lands ? — An immense fiel 

570. Have you any knowledge of the system of irrigation in any oth 
country except India ?-^I have seen it practised in different countries 
Europe ; Spain, France, Holland, and Flanders. 

571. Have you any practical knowledge of the subject? — I have nev 
been employed with land, except on Saugur Island, where our whc 
existence depends upon embankments. 

572. Do you think there are many improvements in irrigation which y< 
have seen practised in other countries, which might advantageously 
introduced into India ? — Many. 

573. What is the amount of the land-tax taken by the government in t 
district of Ramnad ? — It is considered as one-fourth of the gross produce 
dry cultivation^ aod one-half of the gross produce of lands which commai 

wat< 



/». Gordon, Fmj. 



48 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

22 Feb. 1831. water, but in garden cultivation, such as fruit trees, it is fixed by an agree- 
ment ; that is the legal demand- 

57'1'> What is the practical exaction? — To leave as little as possible for 
the subsistence of the people ; they have no appeal : the collection is left in 
the management of native servants, who always leave as httle as possible. 
Tlie collection is made by small instalments during the whole course of the 
harvest It is extorted by every torture possible, especially by means of the 
kittee, which is a couple of sticks between which the fingers are placed. 
This is a torture inflicted by every peon at his own discretion. 

575. To what period do your observations apply ? — Up to 1828. 

576. Is it then the fact, that a much larger sum is extorted from the 
unfortunate ryot than that which he would have to pay by law ?— There is 
no administration of the law ; there is an agreement made, to which he must 
submit, with regard to the cultivation, and he has not only to pay his own 
rent, but in case any of his neighbours are defaulters, there is an assessment 
upon those who can pay, continued even for two or three years. 

577. Is the assessment permanent or periodical ? — 'The assessment of ihe 
kingdom of Ramnad is called a permanent zcmindary assessment; that is, 
the Company have made an agreement with the zemindar of Ramnad for a 
fixed sum annually, which is not to be exceeded ; but they have set aside 
the zemindar of Ramnad, and put their own officer in to collect the revenues, 
and no agreement is made with the natives, who are the actual farmers of 
the land } the assessment on them is not permanent ^ it is considered that 
the zemindar may make his own assessment with them at his pleasure, but 
fhe actual zemindar is the Company's officer, 

573. Do you know the reason why it was taken from the zemindar? — 
By a forged will. The king of Ramnad was imprisoned at Trichinopoly 
for his cruelty to his subjects; but in the Southern Poligar war, in 1801 
or 1803, it was supposed he was about to make his escape to join his 
subjects then in arms ; he was accordingly sent to Madras, and imprisoned, 
and he died in prison. Mr. Lushington had appointed the king's sister as 
successor. He had one daughter, and on the death of the sister it was 
pretended that the sister adopted one of her slaves, and suits were com- 
menced in the different courts of the Company between this adopted slave 
and the daughter of the king. It was appealed to the King of England in 
Council, where it has been upwards of ten years, and now remains as 
unlikely to be decided, I understand, as on the first day ; and in the 
meantime the princess is a beggar in the country, sometimes without any 
allowance from the Company, living with a neighbouring zemindar. The 
slave who was adopted died ; and it was pretended, that at his death he 
left a will, adopting a nephew, a son of his sister j and I have understood 
from the government officers, that this will \*as witnessed by the collector 
of Madura, who for many months had not been in the district, and conse- 
quently could not be at the death the time the will was dated. 

579. When 





SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 4 

S79- ^en did this happen ?— It was ^lout the year 1818 that the goven 
ment first sent a native collector to Ramnad, the time when the manaaemeii 
of the zemindar^ was assumed, and the native servant was placed in th 
management of it by the Company. 

580. Do you state these facts of your own knowledge ?— I have ha 
correspondence with Shivagamynatchiar, the princess. She did not stat 
these things to me, nor have 1 seen her, but I know her to be in that stat 
from my own knowledge ; but the facts I have stated are what I know to b 
true, from what I have seen and heard : it la a thing of public notorie^ 
and spoken of daily. 

581. Is that a solitary instance of oppression ?— No, all the neighbourin 
kingdoms present similar instances. 

582. Have you heard of any such proceedings having occurred at Travai 
core? — When I was at Allapee, in 1813, I either saw the gallows of tli 
minister, or heard that it had stood there a few days or weeks before, but 
think the gallows was then standing, and the remains of the fort in whic 
he attempted to defend himself against the English. 

583. Do you know whether the amount of the revenue of Madura 
greater now than it was a few years ago, before these transactions too 
place ? — Under the native government it must have been better cultivate 
and more productive than at present, judging by the remains of the publi 
works, the churches, the palace and the waterworks. 

584. Do you know the amount paid by the zemindar to government f< 
Ramnad? — I think the amount of the permanent settlement is 119,000 st! 
pagodas annually. 

585. Do you conceive that a larger sum than that is extracted from th 
ryots P— Much larger ; at the time of the settlement it was considered to h 
two-fiflhs or three-iifths of the gross collection of the zemindar. 

586. Do you know whether the land is valuable in that province for sale 
— It is not saleable. 

587. Do you know the value of the landlord's rent under the permanei 
settlement of Bengal, that is, what land would sell for subject to th 
taxes ?—FTom ten to twenty-five years' purchase, by the public auctions ; bt 
in Madura it is not saleable at all ; there land is a service, not a property. 

588. Do you understand land to be a saleable article in any part of tli 
Madras presidency ?— ! cely. 

589. Supposing a fan ' t land revenue to fall into arrear, how ca 
the Kovatiment reoovei t ? — By seizing his persona] property, h 
impwments of husbandry, h < t 1 his slaves, which are disposed i 
at public auction. 

.$0Oi, Doyan jtoorn h the settlement is made with the ryots in Madura 
is it«n anaual wttJcmen t Dy the collector? — At Ramnad, the revenue polici 
1^ am nativa aenrai go round the villages, and fix as they cai 
H t 



r. Gordon, Etq. 



50 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

22 Feb. 1 83t. or as they please, with the rillage, the amouat to be paid for the year's 
cultivation. 

591- Do they go round at any particular period of the year ?— They go at 
the time of the settlement, previously to the commencement of the cultiva- 
tion, about June. 

5^^. Does the head man of the village undertake for the whole, or does 
he settle with each individual ryot? — I cannot say particularly, but I 
think with each iudividual ryot. There is a list of each man's land, and 
the amount he has to pay drawn out; it is an annual arrangement with th« 
ryots. 

593. Does the land revenue attach to the produce of fruit trees? — It 
does. The people are separately assessed, and the trees in each village are 
numbered occasionally by persons who are sent round to take an account of 
every tree in every village, and each tree is assessed at a certain rate. 

594. What are the staple products of exportation from the Madras terri- 
tory? — Cloth, salt, chanks. 

595. Where are those articles exported to? — Cloth to most countries; to 
America, England, South America, the Gulf, and the Red Sea ; the salt to 
Bengal only. 

596. Is salt exported from Madras to the Eastern Archipelago?— It is 
occasionally, when permitted by the Company. 

597- Does it require an express permission to export it? — The Company 
holds all the salt in its own hands, and sells it for exportation to the east- 
ward ; it is a monopoly on the part of the Company, and no person may 
deal wholesale in salt. 

598. Is there not a mineral alkali which is produced at Madras?— Tliere is 
an abundance of it in the province of Madura; it is called Caramutti: it 
naturally forms on the surface of the earth. 

599. Has it been sent to Europe ? — It has, but it was unprofitable ; it 
was of too weak a quality, not sufficiently refined. 

600. Supposing the duty to be less in the ports of Britain, could it then 
be imported here with advantage ? — I am uncertain. 

601. What use do the natives make of it? — In washing, attd the manu- 
facture of soap. 

603. Has it been exported to Ceylon ? — It is continually exported to 
Ceylon, for the manufacture of soap and for the purposes of washing. 

603. Is any of that soap exported from Ceylon to England? — It was ex- 
ported in large quantities, till a protecting duty was laid on in Engluid. 

604. Is there a manufactory of soap at the Danish settlement at Tran- 
quebar ? — There is, and there is a considerable export of that soap to all 
parts of India. 

605 la 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 51 

fiOA. Are indigo and cotton exported from the Madras provinces ? — Cottoi 
is, and indigo in small quantities. 

606. By whom is the indigo manufactured ? — Principally by the French 
in Pondicnerry. 

607* Is it indigo of good quality ?— Very inferior to that of Bengal. 

608. Can you state the difierence between the process of ttie manufactur< 
of indigo at Madras and in the Bengal provinces ? — In Bengal it must b< 
manufactured from the leaf within a few hours afler it is gathered, but a 
Madras the leaf is allowed to ferment a month or six weeks. 

C09. Is there any indigo manufactured by natives at Madras ? — A consi 
derable quantity of what is called the mud indigo, which is the stalks ani 
leaves mixed up altogether, for the use of their own manufactures. 

610. Is the best indigo produced from the leaves alone ? — The whole i 
produced from the leaves : but by the European process that kind of refiis 
is separated from the water, but what is made by the natives is mixed u 
with the leaves without being separated. 

611. How is the Company's investment of cotton procured at Madras ?- 
By means of Commercial Residents. 

612. What is the district it is chiefly drawn from ? — Principally froi 
Tinnevely, which is to the westward of the Madura district 

6 13. Are you acquainted with the circumstances of that province?— 
have been in Tinnevely. 

614. Are the revenues paid in kind at all, or is the cotton purchased I 
Commercial Residents? — I am uncertiun. 

615. Do you know the annual amount of the Company's investment • 
cotton?— In 1833, when I was in Tinnevely, the investment was 8,0C 
bales. 

616. What is the amount of the bale ?— I imagine 250 pounds weigh 
half a candy. 

617. Where was this sent to ?— It was sent to Madras, and from Madr 
in the Company's ships to China. 

618. What is the original price of the cotton ?— I do not know. 

619. Supposing the State to take one half the gross produce of the soil, 
the case of indigo and sugar, do you consider that the manufacture of indi^ 
and sugar coold be ben^cially carried on under such a system ? — It cou 
not; it requires too much capital to be subject to such a system. 

6S0. Has the commercial resident at Tinnevely any thing else to do tbi 
to fiinMi the investment of cotton? — In 1823 he had nothing else to < 
except to fiinish 8,000 bales of cotton. 

6C1. What is the amount of the salaries and commisuon of the establis 
«ent 7—1 dunk about half a lack of rupees a year, £5,000. 

H « 62%. Do 




p. Gordom, E$g. 



58 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

694. Does that include sll the charges of the merchandiee? — Not the in- 
voice charges ; it is exclusive of carriage and freight; and packing. 

638. Are the Company's commercial agents under the Madras presidency 
allowed to carry on trade on their own private account ? — They are. 

624. Do they act as agents for private merchants ?— They do. 

625. What agency do they charge to private individuals r — IVfr. Heath, at 
Salem, charged fifleen per cent, on account of the advantages of the Ccnn- 
pany's establishment which he enjoys. 

626. What advantages do you consider he possessed ?— He is as a magis- 
trate over the manufacturers. 

6S7. Did he dictate the price to the persons selling itP-r-Gntirely. 

628. Was there any other chai^ of brokerage besides the fiileen per 
cent. ? — No other charge. 

&i^. Have you pud that youi^elf ? — I have paid it \ not to Mr. Heath, 
but to a person who was protected by him, who had the use of his establish* 
ment. 

630. What charge for similar agency do private merchants make at Cat* 
cutta and Madras ? — At Calcutta, two and a half per cent, for the provision 
of piece goods, and at Madras five per cent. 

631. Do you know what was given to the producer for the articles so pur- 
chased ? — I do not, I have merely the bill I was charged ; but I know 
nothing of the manner in which the goods were procured, they were pro- 
cured at a considerable distance from me. 

632. Do you know whether the cochineal insect is bred in the Madras 
provinces r — It is collected in t^e southern provinces. 

633. By whom is the cochineal prepared ?— By the natives entirely. 

634. What is its quality, as compared with that of Mexico ?— Very coarse 
and inferior. ' 

635. Do you know how the cochineal insect was first introduced ipto 
Madras? — 1 understood it was introduced by a doctor on the Madras e^ta^ 
birshment, about thirty years ago. 

636. Is it a 6ner red than the lac dye ? — It is ; the lac dye is a substitute 
for cochineal. 

637. Do you consider the Company's coKuner<^ a^nts. as skilfid «ai] 
economical ?— I do not. 

638. Should you be disposed to employ them, provided you could get. any 
body else to do your business as agent ? — Not unless they possessed auperiqr 
advantages to private agents, as magistrates. 

639. You mean the power of dictating the price ?— Entirely so. 

640. Are the Company's commercial agents at Madras active> or have 

they 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of th« HOUSE OF COMMONS. 51 

they much duty to perform ?*~They have little or nothing to do } it b eon 
sidered as a peosion braoch of the civil service. 

6il. Are they very numerous? — They are not» they do not eiceed te 
persons. 

642. Do you think the Company themselves are good traders ^— I thin 
not } no sovereign, I believe^ ever traded to advantage. 

6if8. Did there exist, in the province of Madura, any British-bom sub 
jects engaged in commerce, agriculture, or manufacture ?— -None, excep 
myself. 

644. Are there any in the neighbouring provinces of Tanjore or Hi 
nevely ? — None. 

64f5. What number of British-born subjects, of the description alluded tc 
may there be throwhout the Madras provinces? — ^Twenty, chicdSy shop 
keepers, exclusive of persons in the service of the Company. 

646. What is the reason why so many British-bom subjects^ not in th( 
service of the Company, are engaged in agriculture and manufacture in th< 
province of Bengal, as compared with the provinces of Madras ?— -Because 
the supreme government have systematically been favourable to interlopers. 

647* In your opinion, is the presence of such persons as indigo planters i 
detriment to Bengal, or not ?— -I think they aie the greatest advantage whici 
Bengal enjoys at present. 

648. Aft the laws aiid reguUtions against the free settlement of British* 
bom subjects in India more rigorously executed under the Madras govern 
ment than under the Bengal government ? — Much more so, and stul mon 
rigorously at Bombay. 

649. Will you state the ground upon which you conceive that to be the 
case ? — I have ftequented Bengal for upwards of twenty years, without evei 
being interfered with in the wghtest degree ; I never was asked where ] 
came from, or where I was going to. I was at Bombay once^ merely as i 




one person out of a hundred never has been possessed of free nmrinen 
indentures. 

650. Were you affowed to continue at Bombay when you went there?— 
I had no purpose of continuing, but I should not have been allowed to 
continue. 

65U Can a Brilisb4)Qra subject, without a passport, travel through the 
pceddencir of Madras ? — ^No, he cannot. 

059. What is the nature of the passport he gets ? — These are the passport 
regulations df the Madras gQwenmeat^praducing the same]^— It is directed 
that his route ^all be on the sea-ooast. Only the principal officers of govern- 
ment 



54 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

22 Feb. 1831. ment can grant passports, which are to be countersigned at every station 
P G^rdaii Esr ^^^^^ ^® arrives. He is on no account to be allowed to go beyond thesea- 
' ^* coast ; neither may he have a passport as a resident in any part of the Madras 
territory, but merely as a traveller. 

653. Is it granted for a limited period, or unlimited ? — The period is not 
specified. Occasionally it is said, till the period of his return, without spe- 
cifying the number of days ; and it is visited at every village by the native 
watchman and native police officer. 

654f. Do natives require passports to move about ? — They do not 

655. Are there often vexatious delays ? — I have been delayed several days 
in procuring a passport : I have been arrested and sent back twenty or thirty 
miles, merely because my passport was not countersigned, though 1 had 
taken leave of the collector in the morning* and was not aware of the regu- 
lation ; and another time I sent for a passport, and the collector wrote back 
that he had lost his passport-book, and was obliged to give me a piece of 
paper written, which he assured me would answer the purpose. 

656. By whom are those passports countersigned?— By the principal 
officers or government, who alone are authorized to grant passports, as col- 
lectors and commercial residents and commanding officers. 

657. Having a passport, are you allowed to move from the residence of 
one collector to the residence of another collector ? — Yes, and then to have 
the passport countersigned. 

65S. But it is inspected by the native officer of the village ?— *It is. 

659. Have you experienced much delay in that inspection, in your case?— 
A good deal of annoyance and unpleasant interference. 

660. Is there any thing paid for the passport ? — ^Nothing. 

661. Are those regulations adhered to strictly? — In the year 1828, under 
pretence of those regulations, I was imprisoned and marched to Madura, 
sixty miles into the interior, and imprisoned two months. 

662. Will you state the particulars connected with that transaction ? — I 
was at Ramnad ; a native servant called on me for my passport, though I was 
not travelling, but residing. I reported the circumstance to the magistrate of 
Madura, sixty miles distant ; the Assistant magistrate replied, that unless I 
could produce an authority for being in the district, it was his order that the law 
should be enforced. I was marched to Madura, attended by above a dozen 
persons, armed men ; 1 was detained at Madura two months. I then pro- 
ceeded to Madras, to bring an action against the collector in the supreme 
court. I took counsel's opinion, a copy of which is in the pamphlet I have 
delivered in ; the counsel said, that in the defective state of the law as apply- 
ing to India, I had no means of criminal prosecution against the magistrate. 
I applied to the Madras government, but received no answer from them ; I 
went up to Bengal, and applied to the supreme government frequently during 
two years ; after two years' application to the supreme government at Cal- 
cutta 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 5, 

cuttat I was referred to the Court of Directors. Immediatelv on my arrivs 
in this country, three months since, I applied to the Court of Directors, ani 
have not yet received any answer to my application. 

663. You stated » that you went from Madura to Madras ; did the collec 
tor allow you to go without anv application to the Madras eovemment ?- 
Immediately that the collector bad reported my arrest to the Madras goven 
ment, the Madras government ordered that I should be released, and the arme 
peons were taken off from me ; till that time four policemen were constantl 
\n my room, but still I was detained ; and whilst a prisoner, he sent a fres 
summons, and thev forcibly dragged me into his court to answer to a set c 
interrogatories, which I would not answer. 

664. Who was the collector ? — Mr. Rous Peter, at Madura. 

665. Is the collector still living? — I understand he has destroyed himsell 
in consequence of some investigation into his afiairs by the Madras goven 
ment. 

666. Will you have the goodness to read the counsel's opinion?^ 
was a case submitted to Mr. Lewis, a barrister, and clerk of the Crown t 
Madras: 

'' Mr. Lewis is requested fiilly to consider the foregoing case, on the part of M: 
Peter Gordon, and to advise that gentleman whether any and what criminal prosecutio 
can be sustained by Mr. Gordon against Mr, Rous Peter, for the arrest and imprisox 
ment of, and arbitrary conduct towards Mr. Gordon, as above detailed, and the steps b 
which copies of warrants and proceedings may be procured, if it is not a crimini 
case. 

*' Opinion : Ex parte Mr. Peter Gordon. — I have read the accompanying case, whic 
is one of as much unjustifiable oppression as any I have ever yet met with, and on< 
I should say, as much calling for the interference of the government, by inquiry at leai 
into the conduct of one of their servants, as well can be imagined. That there has bee 
the most unwarrantable abuse of authority on the part of Mr. Rous Peter, is evident 
and that he has made an almost obsolete regulation of government subservient to h 
own private purposes, is equally so, by the arrest and detention of Mr. Gordon's jpei 
son, at a time and under circumstances which render justification totally impossiDl< 
The government of Madras, it would appear, in complete abandonment of its own resi 
lations as respected Mr. Gordon, thought fit to accept of him as a renter, he rendenn 
the enormous sum of about 100 rupees a day ; a circumstance fully known to Mr. Petei 
the farms rented being in his distnct. Mr. Gordon, it would appear, resided generall 
upon the farms, going backwards and forwards to Madras, Calcutta, and elsewkere, fo 
a period of duree years, as it suited his purposes and occasions, in all which time Mi 
Peter^ who must necessarily have had advice of Mr. Gordon being a renter, never one 
interfered with his personal liberty, or instituted any inquiry to discover whether Mi 
Gordon was or not a British subject within the 53d of the late King; neither do I thinl 
it was competent to him to have done so, unless he had assumed an auth6rity paramoun 
to the government itself. The moment, however, that one of Mr. Gordon's contracts i 
determmed with the government, for it appears there is another one still eiusliiig, anc 
before Mr. Gordon has time to adjust his afiairs consequent to his contract in Mr 
Peter*s district, he is, without previous notice to depart^ seised, and placed in a state o 
rigorous confinement, and subjected to personal insult. Mr. Gordon is however ordered 
upon his own remonstrance to the Governor in Council, to be liberated, and Mr. Petei 

• 

1) 



56 EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS'. 

22 Feb. 18S1. is directed to ascertain the fact whether Mr. Gordon is a British subject within the 

— ^ meaning of the Act above quoted ; and this fact it pleases Mr. Peter to endeavour to 

P. Qordmy Etq. come at by personal interrogation of Mr. Gordon himselfj who is further imprisoned, 

and dragged, in violation of every principle of law and of natural Justice, in custody of 
armed peons, before Mr. Peter, to answer his interrogatories. 1 cannot conceive for 
one moment that the government could or would sanction such a coufse of proceeding as 
Mr. Peter seems to have pursued ; and I think it may fiEurly and in justice to the 
government be presumed, that Mr. Peter has misstated the case to the government, if 
the government has refused inquiry into Mr. Peter's conduct, and redress for his mis* 
behaviour. Although I repeat tliat Mr. Peter's acts are most unjustifiable, I might 
safely add scandalous, yet I r^et to say that I do not know of any criminal process 
which can reach him, in the defective state of the law as applicable to India ; and I am 
of opinion, that no criminal indictment could be sustained against him alone, thouc^ 
he would be answerable, heavily so, I should say in a civil action, for the injuries he 
has inflicted on Mr. Gordon. Mr. Gleig seems to be mixed up with this transaction 
in a way which certainly does him bnt little credit ; and I think it may be collected 
from the general statement, that he and Mr. Peter were acting in that degree of undue 
concert together, that I am decidedly of opinion they might be indicted for a con* 
spiracy, and would be so properly indicted, if the facts alleged to have taken place in 
respect of a member of Mrs. Muler's famfly, at Ranmad, could be establi^ed, or 
that that lady could be induced to disclose all the facts within her knowledge; but 
without the aid of the testimony of Mrs. Miller, and her daughter, I cannot hold out 
any hope of redress to Mr. Gordon, even to this extent, notwithstanding all he has 
suffered* In closing this, I cannot avoid again repeating the advice I formerly gave 
Mr. Gordon, of making a temperate but urgent remonstrance to the goremraeirt on 
the injury and degradation he has suffered, accompanied by a request that the gorem- 
ment will furnish him with copies of Mr. Peter's and also Mr. Grleig's correspondence 
with government on the subject of Mr. Gordon's arrest and detention, and the causes 
assigned for it, and also for copy of that letter written by Mr. GleHs to Mrs. Miller. 
I feel almost confident such an application would succeed. If it did, Mr. Gordon 
might be put in possession of evidence which might materially assist him in the 
attainment of justice, and enable him to benefit the public generally by the exposure 
of a system which evidently requires reformation, as his own case but too strongly 
proves. 

'' Madras, 1st May 1828." (Signed) «' RoBBRT Lkwis.'* 

667- Do you know whether the regulation which the counsel describes as 
nearly obsolete, is still in force ? — ^The passport regulations were evidently 
made for a state of war. I left Madras immediately after this, and I have 
not been at Madras since. 

668. Have you a copy of the case upon which that opinion was given ? — 
I merely submitted the correspondence which took place between myself 
and the magistrates, as contained in this pamphlet, *' Official Corre^ond- 
ence.** 

669* Did you make any application to the government of Madras ?— I 
did. 

GrjO. Did they institute any inquiry into the conduct of Mr. Peter ? — 
When this book was published at Madras, I understood that a commisrion 
was sent down to inquire into the state of the Madura district. I had pre- 
viously stated, that in the cash balance of Mr. Peter there was a deficiency 

of 



SELECT COMMIITEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 57 

of £100,000: to investigate this and other charges, a commission, I under- 
stood, was sent down to the Madura district, which he could not meett and 
therefore destroyed himself. 

67L Have you made any application to the authorities in England since 
your arrival ?— Directly I arrived in England, I went to the India- House and 
saw the Secretary, who directed me to make an application in writing ; I 
hav^ called there frequently since, and have been promised an answer. 

672. What was the date of your first application ? — The 26th of November; 
in the last year, and I was at the Examiner's office about a week ago. 

67s. How long were you resident at Ramnad ?— Five years. 

674. What were you engaged in ?— In farming the revenues. 

675. Under whom ?— With the collector of Madura, and I was also in 
communication with the government. 

676. When did Mr. Rous Peter die? — In 1828, a few months after this 
took place. 

677* ^^^ any inquiry instituted into the circumstances of the case by the 
government of Madra? ?— There was a correspondence, which I have never 
been able to see. 

678. Had there existed any causes of private difference between you and 
Mr. Peter? — There was much correspondence between us. The first was about 
the duty on British iron ; from that time, there was frequent correspondence 
with respect to custom duties, the assistance I was entitled to receive from 
government in support of my farming, and the opposition 1 received instead 
of assistance. 

Ii79* Where had you been in the intermediate period between the date of 
these occurrences and your arrival in England ? — Two years 1 was applying 
to the Bengal government, and the day 1 got an answer from the Bengal go- 
vernment I embarked for England,before the written answer arrived, as soon as 
I received a verbal answer ret'erring me to the Court of Directors in England. 

680. Had you any other object in Calcutta than that of awaiting the 
result of your application xo government ? — Obtaining employment. I re- 
sided in Calcutta. I was idle the greater part of the time, and was constantly 
applying to government whenever I could ; part of the time I was very ill. 

681. How were you employed during that period ?— I was three months 
io Saugur Islands 1 

682. During all that period were you in the habit of making applications 
to the government, and obtaining no answer ? — ^No answer till very lately, 
when I went personally and obtained an answer. 

683. To^om did you apply ?«-Both to Mr. Bayley and Lord Bentinck. 
The two first applications were made to Mr. Bayley's government, and im- 
mediately afterwards to Lord Bentinck, who arrived in July 1898. 

1 684. Who 



s 



58 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

22 Feb. 18 31. 684. Who was the governor at Madras at the time ? — Mr. Lushington 

685. Did you suffer considerable loss from this interruption to your busi- 
ness at Ramnad ? — As nearly as J can estimate it, £100,000. 

686. In what way ? — In the total ruin of the farms. Instead of having 
assistance to carry on those farms, I experienced constant opposition. 

687. When did you take the farms ? — From 1823 ; but the disputes were 
in 1825. 

688. When you estimate your loss at £100|000, do you mean a loss of 
iroperty actually realized, or a loss of profit which you might have made ?— 
X is a vague estimate : it was a destruction of capital^ and a loss of all that 

might have been realized by the farms for which I was paying a rent. 

689. What was the amount of the rent you paid ? — I think 80,000 rupees 
a-year for Tinnevely farm, and 27,000 rupees a-year for the Ramnad farm, 
11,000 for the Chia farm, besides other mercantile engagements which I 
had. 

690. Were you not aware that your occupation of those lands was con- 
trary to law? — Not when I took them. I did not occupy lands, I farmed 
revenues. 

691. When was it you took the farm of the revenue ?— It was taken in 

1823 by the House of Scott & Company in Calcutta, who sent me as their 
agent to inspect all their concerns in Southern India, and I returned to Cal- 
cutta, and then entered into fresh engagements with the government at 
various periods. In July 1824 I took the farms of Ramnad for three years, 
and then the next year I took the farms of Tinnevely. 

692. From whom did you take those farms ? — From the Madras govern- 
ment, and from the collectors of Tinnevely and Madura. Before I entered 
into any thing, I was in correspondence with the Revenue Board, through 
the agency of Arbuthnot's house. 

693. For what length of time did you take this ? — By different leases ; one 
lease I entered into was for three years, from the collector of Madura, and 
for three years with the collector of Tinnevely, with the sanction and appro- 
bation of the Madras government 

694. Which was the farm you took for three years ?— Both the Ramnad 
farm and the Tinnevely farm, I had first for one year, and afterwards I 
took each of them for three years. In 1823 I had them for one year ; in 

1824 Ramnad was under the management of the government, and in the 
middle of 1824 I took it for three years, which would expire in July 1827- 

695. When did your imprisonment take place? — In December 1827 ; but 
the Tinnevely farm was not expired then, and the property that had been 
produced of chanks that had been fished, were in the warehouse at Ramnad, 
and not disposed of. 

696. Up 



S£L£CT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 69 

696. Up to December 1827f bad you the full managemeat of tbe farm you 
took ?— Yes ; I had been called up to Madras the year before, and the 
management of the chank fishery had been placed in toe hands of the col- 
lector. I was not allowed to appoint any person to take charge of it, and I 
had offered to give it up to the government, and begged the Company to 
take it ; they entirely refused to take it on their own account, but appointed 
the collector to manage it during my absence. 

697. Are you still in possession of any of those farms? — When I left 
India, the house with which I am connected continued the Tinnevely farm 
under a lease from the government, but not the Ramnad farm. I do not 
know that it was renewed for the present year ; the lease was till the 12th of 
July 1830. 

698. What was the object of the lease ? — The exclusive privilege of tak- 
ing chank on that coast, which are sent to Bengal, and sold in the Bengal 
market. 

699. Then it had no reference to the land ? — ^None. It is called a farm 
because it is a farm of revenue ; but the chaya root is dug on tbe land, and 
I had a right of digging on the land of every person. 

700. Did you ccJlect any land revenue ? — Yes, it is a branch of the land 
revenue ; it is entered under the head of mahl. 

70 1. What is chaya root? — A dye root, a species of madden I had the 
exclusive privilege of digging chaya root in the kingdom of Ramnad. 

702. Had you anything to do with the grain crops or the cotton ?-— 
Nothing. 

703. Does not that province produce very fine cotton ?— It does. 

704. To what process are those chank sheHs applied 7— As ornaments ; 
also in the religious rites of the Hindoos, for pouring water out on their 
idols when they are saying prayers ; and every person attending the burning 
of a body, who wishes to show respect to the body, takes a chank shell. 

705. Was your contract much of the same nature as the pearUfiabery ?— 
It is of the same nature, and it is on the same coast. 

706. Did you pay an annual rent ? — An annual rent. 

707. Are those shells exported to other parts of India ?— Only to Calcutta. 

708. Is the produce arising from that fishery considerable ?— «It varies con- 
siderably in point of value and in point of produce, according to the number 
of persons employed on it. The year it was under the government manage- 
ment about 150,000 cbanks were obtained. 

709. Can you state the value of the Tinnevdy cotton, as compared with 
other cotton ?-^In the cuatom^iouse ;^riff the cotton of Madras generally is 
valtf^ ^t 100 rupees per candy ; but Tsonevely and Ramqad oottoo is 
valued at ISO rupees per candy. 

I « 7IQ. Are 



P, Garden, Esq. 



60 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

22 Feb. 1831. 710. Are all Europeans travelling for commercial purposes obliged to be 

furnished with a passport? — They are. 

711. Are the servants of the East-India Company obliged to be furnished 
with a passport ? — They are, except military officers in charge of military 
parties. 

712. What is the term as applied by the regulations to an European travel- 
ling out without a passport ? — Vagrant : he is liable to be arrested and im« 
prisoned while a report is being made to the supreme government at Madras. 

713. Is any reward offered for his apprehension ? — ^There is a reward of ten 
pagodas for his apprehension. 

714. What are the regulations with regard to licenses and passports under 
His Majesty's Government at Ceylon ?— Europeans require neither license nor 
passport; but coast natives require a passport when travelling to the interior. 

715. You stated, that the natives of Madras do not require a passport ? — 
They do not when travelling about the presidency of Madras. 

716. Would a native of Ceylon require a passport in the Madras presi- 
dency ? — None ; but Europeans require passports in the Madras presidency. 

717. Was the government of Ceylon ever administered by the East-India 
Company? — It was, by the Madras servants. 

718. For what period?— From 1796 to 1802. 

719* At that period were the regulations with respect to passports, and the 
exclusion of British-born subjects to hold land, enforced at Ceylon as they 
are now at Madras ? — They were. 

720. What, in your opinion, is the reason of the difference between the 
conduct of his Majesty's Government at Ceylon and that of the Madras 
presidency? — ^The Company's government has no authority over Europeans 
short of transmitting them, therefore it does not like their rivalry in trade, 
or their obtaining a settlement in the country ; the King's Government in 
Ceylon has full authority over Europeans. 

721. Supposing permission were given to Europeans to reside in India, 
would it not be necessary that they should be amenable to the laws existing 
in the spot where they reside ? — It would be necessary and desirable that the 
local courts should have jurisdiction over them. 

722. What do you mean by the local courts ? — They ought not to be 
Company's courts ; they ought to be King's courts, established in every 
zillah. At present the provincial courts of Ceylon are superintended by a 
supreme court, which goes on circuit ; but the local courts of the Company 
are not under the supreme courts of the Company. 

723. Do you know whether the King's Government in Ceylon has at thiei 
moment the power of deportation or not ? — It has the power of deportation^ 
and imprisonment without the benefit of habeas corpus. 

7«4. Is 




\jt~ 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OP COMMONS. 61 

724. Is it your opiDion that such a power should be vested in the King's 
Government in India, in case it were taken away from the Company T-^ 
Certainly not. 



Lunte, 2&^ die Februarii, 1831. 

PETER GORDON, Esq. again called in, and examined. 

725. Have you any explanation to afford the Committee of your former 
evidence ? — Yes. 

726. You stated, it was not necessary for the natives of the Madras 
provinces to have passports within the Madras territory similar to those 
necessary for British-born subjects ; do you wish to explain that answer ?— 
I was thinking of the published passport regulations. Those regulations do 
not apply to the natives ; but a system of passports is maintained, by which 
a native cannot pass from village to village ; he cannot carry a burthen for 
any traveller, nor go to work in any town ; he is obliged to apply to the 
native servants of the government, who are at the same time employed in the 
revenue of the village, and obtain a chit, which is written on a leaf, without 
which he cannot quit the village for a day's work. 

727* Does there exist a regulation to this effect in the Madras presidency? 
— In the printed dvil regulations of the Madras government there is nothing 
of the kind. 

7^8. Is there any other regulation you are aware of, upon that subject?—* 
I am not aware of any express regulation, but the whole system is carried on 
against the published regulations. 

729. Is it the practice that those passes should be given ?— It is the uni- 
versal practice. 

730. What is its object ? — To force the inhabitants to remain on the lands 
on which they were bred, to cultivate them for the Company on the Com- 

{)any*s own terms. Were it not for this regulation, they would quit their 
anas, and go to the towns and wofk as labourers. 

731 Are yoii aware of any instances in which individuals have been pre- 
vented emigrating from the country to towns for that purpose ? — Constantly. 
I have constantly had labourers who were obliged to receive those chits, and 
I have given those chits to my own slaves, my own chank divers and chaya 
diggers, for their persons and their boats. 

732. Is this a practice generally prevalent in the Madras territory ? — ^Yes, 

it is general, if not universal. 

733. Are 




62 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDI A AFFAIRS : 

28 Feb. 1831. 735. Are there any servants of the East-India Company now in England 

who can speak to this practice ? — Yes ; Mr. Cotton, his Majesty's Justice of 

P. Gordon^ Esq. ^j^g Peace and principal collector of Tanjore, Mr. Alexander Sinclair the 

younger, Mr. Ogilvy, and Mr. Gleig. 

734. Where were those gentlemen employed ? — In Tanjore and in Madura. 
They are now resident in England, and must necessarily be conversant with 
this system, which they have carried on for years. 

735. Supposing a cultivator to* quit one coUectorate and to proceed to 
another without a pass-note, would he be claimed and sent back ? — Constantly 
such claims are made, and they must have been made by Mr. Cotton and 
the other gentlemen I have mentioned. The claims are attended to, and 
they are sent back, quite as much so as West-India negroes are sent from 
one plantation to another. 

736. Are you not aware that the practice of giving pass-notes to culti- 
vators and others, and seizing the fugitive peasantry in the way you have 
described, does not prevail in Bengal? — It prevails in Bengal, as far as 
regards the Company's ryots, whether weavers, silk-winders, salt manufac- 
turers, or opium cultivators. I have a recent instance of it : ^^ 1824, 
February 10th ; R. Plowden, salt agent at Hidgeelee, to D. Hodges, Mud 
Point, Saugur Island." I met with the copy of this letter on the books 
of the Saugur Island Society : — 

'* Sir : — Having accurate iuformation that the following salt manufacturers of the 
Hidgeelee Salt ^ency have absconded from hence, and taken advances, as labourers 
or otherwise, for the works carrying on under your superintendence at Saugur Island, 
I beg to send a person who will identify them, to request that they may be respectively 
delivered over to the charge of the bearer of this letter." 

737. Where does that letter appear ? — On the proceedings of the Saugur 
Island Society. 

738. Can you vouch for its authenticity ? — ^Yes, I can. I succeeded to 
the person to whom it is addressed ; he is now in the Company's service as 
a surgeon. 

739. Do you know anything of the circumstances under which that letter 
was written ; whether the persons were defaulters, or had entered into 
engagements they had not fulfilled ?— The ten men's names followed, which 
I have not here ; the claim is made as against ten defaulters. The next 
letter is from the same person to the same person : — 

'' Snt : — ^I am favoured with yoin: letter of the 24th instant, in reply to mine of the 
lOtb, requesting the restoration of ten moUungees therein named, who had absconded 
from this division. I beg leave, in reply, to inform you, that I can recognize no autho'^ 
rity in the committee of management for the Saugur Island Society, to whom you have 
referred my letter, that is paramount to the enactment of the Legislature^ which 

Erohibits mollungees from seeking^ other employ while under an engagement to the 
ompany. (Paragraph the second :) A person having been deputed by me to identify 

those 




SELECr COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 63 

those peraoBB, I conaider tbeir (iirtfaer detention, pending a reference to the authorities 
you bare named, ai a very great and uncalled for impeaimoit to my availing myself <tf 
the services of those individuals, and as a very serious delay and loss on the Dusmess of 
the agetxy confided to my superintendence. (Third:) Previously, therefore, to my 
taking any further steps in this matter, I have to repeat my request, that the peraoas in 
question may immediately be returned. 

" I am. Sir, your obedient servant, 

" R. C. Plowobn, a. H. D. Hidgeelee." 

740. Those latter cases, to which you have alluded, are cases in vhich an 
idvaDce had been made to parties engaged in the salt maoufacture ? — All tiie 
inhabitants of India are in debt to the Company, by the showing of the Com- 
pany's accounts. 

741 . Do you imagine, in the cases you have mentioned with regard to 
the salt manufactures at the mouth of the Ganges, that the parties so claimed 
had had advances made to them on the part of the Company? — It is 
pretended so by the government. By experience, which makes me acquainted 
with the system, miluons know it who cannot appear in this court to witness 
against this system ; I consider them in the same situation with the whole of 
the rest of the natives, particularly in the southern provinces : it is a ficti- 
tious debt. 

742. Is it the practice to make advances to mollungees ?— -Yes, it is. 
74S. Have you any reason to believe that practice to have been deviated 

from in those instances ? — Forcible advances are made. I do not consider a 
man is a debtor, any more than if sixpence is laid at my door and is claimed 
as a debt} and I know that is the custom of the Company with the 
natives. 

744. How do you know that ? — By experience. 

745. State some of your proofs within your own knowledge ; you are 
aware you are making very serious charges ? — This is an extract from the 
Surat Diary, made by Mr. Rickards, which is an official document, and it 
exhibits the system of advances. 

746. What is the date of it?— From I796, annually, up to 1811. 

747. Is Mr. Rickards in this country, who made that statement? — He 
was a member of this House, and I have seen him this day. Innumerable 
proofs have occurred in my own knowledge. I have been carrying on. In a 
degree, the same system myself ; and many particular insbmces arecontuned 
in this official correspondence between myself and the government, and I 
dare say I can turn to some that bear on the point in a minute. Here is an 
instance, not exactly of their persons, but their property being taken away, 
their sheep ; and the reply of the commandant of the town is, it was not for 
himself but for his dogs that a sheep or two was taken. Here is a letter 
from myself, No. % to the sub-collector and assistant magistrate of 
" lad:— 

"SlIi: 



64 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

28 Feb. 1831. " Sir: " Attancurry, 5th of July 1825. 

•■ The bearers having applied to me for that protection whicl^ to my certain kno^ir- 

P. Gordon, Esq. ledge, they actually require, I beg to recommend them to your attention. It is 
assumed they are slaves of the soil, and unable to follow their occupation of cfaank- 
divingf where most profitable to them. 

" I am. Sir, your most obedient servant, 

" Peter Gordon," 
The person to whom that was addressed was Mr. D. Bannernian, who has 
lately returned from England to India. 

748. What was done in that case? — I have here his answer. Here is 
another letter. No. 3. 

" To the Sub-Collector and Assistant Magistrate, Ramnad. 
" Sm: " Attancurry, 5th of July 1825. 

" May I request your sanction to this notice. 

" I am, Sir, your obedient servant, 

" Peter Gordon." 

" Notice. — Chank-divers are not slaves of the government or of the renter, but 
may live where they like, and follow other employments if they like. 
" To P. Gordon, Esq. Attancurry." 

74^. Is that notice signed by you ? — No ; it is left in blank, with no sig- 
nature to it. I wished the magistrate to sign it 

750. Is that the notice you sent to hitn in blank for his signature P— Yes. 

751. Did he sign it ? — Here is his reply. 

•* Sib : " Mootoopettah, 7th of July 1825, 

" I beg leave to inform you, that as cases may occur m which there are circum- 
stances rendering it incumbent upon particular divers to attend particular chank 
fisheries, I do not consider the notice to which you request my sanction as entirely 
unobjectionable, and I must therefore decline authorizing it. It appears that the three 
persons whom you sent with your letter on the above subject belong to the Shevagunga 
district, and I nave no authority to redress their grievances, supposing them to exist. 
" I am, Sir, your most obedient servant, 

" D. BA^^EHMAN, Sub-Collector. 

752. Do you happen to know the particular circumstances of those three 
parties? — Yes, I do. Here is a continuation of the same subject. — Extract 
of No. 36. 

" To the principal Collector of Madura. 

'• Attancurry, 2: th of July 1820. 
" BvT strange as it must appear, these rapacious custom-house officers, aided by the 
police of the sea-coast department, and countenanced by the ameenas and talookdars, 
drive the chank-divers from the prolific Ramnad ports to the free porta of Shevagunga. 
It would be supposed that the divers would not require much driving, but would flock 
to Shevagunga. I am happy to say the contrary is the case, and that in spite of the 
activity of Nattacotty Chittie renters, and the terrors of the reigning znnindar, the 
perveruon and the frequent defiance of authority intrusted to native serrantH of the 
^vemment, and in the absence of all protection from the assistant ma^>-istrate of 
Kamnad when refugees within his district, the divers of Shevagunga contintie to pro- 
voke the lash : some have come and settled at the Ranmad porta ; others come and 

diye 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 65 

dire at them, notwithstanding the terror of a flt^ine on their return home, ii4iere they 
are prepared to find that their wives have been troubled on account of their&bsence. ' 

Those three persons came to my district to work for me. 

753. What were their names? — Their names are on recortl in this corre- 
spondence. 

734. From whence did they come ? — From the adjoining district. The 
magistrate mentions he is merely a magistrate of the kingdom of Ramnad, 
and Shevagunga is another kingdom, under the same principal collector, but 
not under the jurisdiction of the assistant magistrate. 

753. Upon their coming to your district to fidh, what took place? — Tlieir 
trees were cut down, their wives were troubled, they were beaten on their 
return home; and not merely those three men; they came as the repre- 
sentatives of others I the whole of the villagers migrated into my service. 
The magistrate says, that they are natives of Shevagunga, and as they merely 
came into the Ramnad district, he has no authority over them. 

75G. How long did they remain with you ? — They came whenever they 
possibly could. 

757. Was this act of oppression constantly committed ? — Here are nu- 
merous instances of divers of Tanjore also coming, and the renter interfering 
and desiring they may come back. The renter ot Tanjore came with native 
servants of the government, taking away the divers, and flogging them, taking 
them back by force 1 whole villages. The collectors say, expressly, the people 
are riot free people. 

758. Are those divers under any engagement to those collectors? — No 
more than the other natives; they are forced to enter into any bonds, and 
they render any receipt they are called upon to do for property taken. If 
there is any complaint, they are called up to town, under the pretence of 
being paid for their sheep, and things taken away by force in the same man- 
ner. I know to a certainty, that the people are not voluntary debtors to the 
Company ; advances are forced on them, or it is pretended that they have 
received advances, according to the same system as the soldiers are sometimes 
recruited in En^jland, but with much more severity. 

759. Do you know how those advances are forced upon them ? — In any 
manner. It any witness will appear in court, and declare that the people 
have received advances, they are considered as the Company's ryots, 'i'he 
regulations are published. 

760. Is there any regulation by which the Company are authorized to flog 
persons escaping under those circumstances ? — Yes. 

761. What is that regulation ? — This is prior to the code of I79S, but 
adopted into that code : this is 1775. May 1st. 

76c. You wish to afford some explanation in respect to what you stated 
K upon 



66 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

28 Feb. 18S1. upon the exportation of raw silk from Bengal to Madras ? — Yes, concerning 
— the duties. 

' ^' 763. State what explanation you wish to make ?— On reference to the 
printed tarifi^ I find^ if exported in a foreign bottom, the duty at Madras 
would be sixteen per cent., instead of eight per cent., the total amount of 
duty would be thirty-one per cent. 

764. How does that make thirty-one per cent. ? — Seven and a half inland 
transit duty to Calcutta, seven and a half exportation in a foreign bottom 
from Calcutta, and sixteen per cent, import duty at Madras* making thirty- 
one per cent, passing from one British town to another. 

765. Do you mean to say that this silk, when it shall arrive at Madras, 
will be liable to another sixteen per cent. ? — Yes ; sixteen per cent, duly^ 
the same as if it had arrived from any other territo^ than British. I was 
also questioned respecting the imports and exports of Calcutta. I beg to lay 
before the Committee this document, up to the SOth of April 1830, which is 
the latest in this country, and another also by Doctor Wilson, from 1814 
until 18S8. 

766. Supposing silk imported into Madras in a foreign ship, is it liable 
to sixteen per cent. ? — ^Yes, in a foreign vessel ; an Arab vessel is a foreign 
vessel. 

767. What would it pay if imported in an English ship ?— Eight per cent. 

768. Would there be any duty upon its export from Calcutta in a British 
ship ? — None. 

769. There would be only the transit duty payable inland ? — Yes ; and if 
exported to the United Kingdom there would be a drawback of two*thirds of 
the duty } if exported to the United States, a drawback of one-third of the 
duty ; but if exported to the presidency of Madras in a foreign bottom, seven 
and a half per cent, sea export duty ; therefore Madras is on a less favourable 
footing than foreign Europe and the United States. 

770. Supposing silk sent from the Bengal presidency to Madras in a British 
ship, it would be liable to seven and a half per cent transit duty, and eight 
per cent, import duty ? — Yes } fifteen and a half per cent, is the gross duty 
upon a British ship. 

771. Would any part of the duty be drawn back on the export of this silk 
from Madras ?-*-None, only on exportation to the United Kingdom or to 
foreign Europe, and now within a few months, the empire of Brazil ; but no 
drawback on re-export to any port of British India or foreign Asia. 

772. Those duties are all prescribed by the printed regulations of the 
government ?-*-Yes, by the local governments* 

773. Are those duties consistent with the regulations published at Madras ? 
— lliose which I state are consistent 

774. Are 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. ©7 

774' Are you aware whether aoy estates are held in property, or on Icmg 
leases, by British subjects in the Madras presidency ?— None. 

775. By law, can they or not be held ? — They cannot be held by law. 

776. Do you know any instance in which they are so held? — Merely 
houses, but not landed property to any extent On the Malabar coast, in the 
Travancore district, there are estates held, but not under the Company's 
goremment : Messrs. Beaufort and Huxom hold estates under the ficbon of 
the ranee of Travancore, but actually under the Company. 

777. Supposing powers were given to Europeans to hold lands under the 
Madras presidency, would capital be invested in the cultivation of the soil, 
under the existing revenue r^ulations? — It would not, under the existing 
revenue system j capital has no more business at Madras than it has at 
Morocco. 

778. Does that arise from the weight of the taxation, or the mode in 
which the taxes are levied ? — From being collected without law, or against 
law, at the will of the collectors. 

779- By the collectors, do you mean the natives ? — Native and Europeans 
twether, supported by the whole military force of the Company, or indeed 
of England, army and navy. Here is a very recent instance, in the recol- 
lection of every gentleman acquainted with Indian affairs, mentioned by Mr. 
Feter, io his correspondence with me, when Mr. Thackeray was killed in 
attempting to collect the revenues, with one or two other civilians and some 
military officers, as late as \8iS ; he was killed at a fort, attempting to as- 
sume it, as his brother calls it in a diary I have here of bis, and his hand was 
nailed on the door of the fort It had been his boast that his hand bad never 
been raised to his head as returning the salute of any native 1 that has 
appeared in the public papers. 

780. You were acquainted with the island of Ceylon ?— Yei. 

78 1. Did the goverment of Ceylon encourage or discourage European 
colonization? — They encourage it to the utmost; and they have recently 
published regulations, offering land for the cultivation of difiereirt articles, 
declaring that these articles shall be held for ever free from duty. 

783. Has that been attended with a considerable increase of o^oizatioD 
in Ceylon ?— It has not 

78S. Can you state why it has not ?— -These regulations are very recent, 
and the government of Ceylon, in common with the Company, sanctions 
trmnimission and imprisonment without habeas corpus. 

784. That, you think, is a bar. to the settlement of Europeans ? — Yes, a 
material bar. 

78& Are you acquainted with the French presidency at Pondicherry ?— 
I aa well acquainted with the whole of Pondicherry, and the district of 
Kar^caL There are upwards of two hundred villages in a much better state 
than the neighbouring English villages, especially the roads and public works. 
K« 786. Are 



68 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

28 Feb. ISSl. 786. Are Europeans permitted to hold lands there ? — Yes, they are encou- 

raged by every inducement possible. There was a proclamation lately by 

P. Gordon, Etq. jj,g french government, holding out premiums for the cultivation of certain 
valuable products. 

787- What has been the result of that system F — The French, and indeed all 
the foreign European territories, are in a much better state than the English 
territory ; any person acquainted with the country, set down in. it at night, 
could declare immediately whether it was the Company's territory or not. 

788. What extent of territory do the French possess round Pondicherry? 
— It may be fifteen miles in circuit, not more. 

789. Has it been considerably improved since the repossession of it by the 
French? — Considerably; there was a great number of coolies employed, 
when I last passed it, in making an agreeable walk by the sea-side. 

790. Are you aware of any possession by the Danes or Portuguese ? — I am 
acquainted with Tranquebar, Goa, and Sadras, a Dutch possession. 

791. What is their policy with respect to permission to Europeans to hold 
lands? — There is encouragement to Europeans ; a regular system of legisla- 
tion, an exact administration of justice, the same as in towns in Europe. 
One of the courts of Pondicherry contains a dozen members, and there are 
several other courts, and the police is vigilantly administered, and vigilantly 
superintended. 

792. Are there many opulent native families resident in the province of 
Madura? — If any, they are very few. There is the Marea of Keelakurray, 
who Is reputed rich, the zemindar of Shevagunga has extensive lands under 
his management, and many of the Nattacotty Chittie merchants have the 
command of immense funds; but no class can be considered at all rich, 
excepting the officers In the immediate and actual service of the Company, 
and as soon as they are dead or lose their situations, their property is very 
soon spoiled. 

793. In what way spoiled ?— By the officers of the goverment. Wherever 
money is known to exist in the territory it is taken away. 

794>. By whom? — Whoever has money that is not actually employed in 
trade, it is taken away by the servants of the Company, by the revenue police 
of the country. 

795. In what way? — ^Whoever has money keeps it buried in the interior of 
the house, and if there is a suspicion of this, he is seized, laid hold of and 
tortured, lifted from the ground by his roustachios. between two peons. 

796. Do you know any instance in which this torture has been exhibited ? — 
— I know many instances In which the kittee torture has been applied. In this 
official correspondence are two or three particular cases, one of which strikes 
my memory. [ think it was one of the three men, whose case I referred to 
the magistrate ; I observed him with a finger double the usual thickness, 

when 




SFXECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 69 

when standing at a distance away from me, and upon inquiry ns to what it 
was, 1 tbund it had been injureil ljy the kittee. '1 he kittee consists of two 
pieces of stick, like a vice, tied together at its end ; it is jammed, and the foot '' 
stamped on it. 

797. By whose order is it inflicted? — At the discretion of every revenue 
police peon throughout the country ; 100,000 persons, as Sir Thomas Munro 
has estimated. Sir Thomas Munro has stood by, by common report, and 
' seen this kittee inflicted ; he must have seen it. This person whose finger 
struck me I sent to the magistrate Mr. Nelson, requesting him to investigate 
it ; from ttie native, I aftf rwards understood, that he had beeo sent, not by 
Mr. Bannermau, but by order of the principal magistrate to a native officer, 
and fined again. It may be necpssary to state that he had been thumb-screwed 
for having worked for me, though he was one of my owe chank divers. At 
the same time, three whole villages I understood to be thumb-screwed ; but 
here is a positive instance, which came under my own inspection. I referred 
him to Mr. Nelson, the European magistrate, and he was not allowed to 
examine it ; the sufferer was sent to the native officer. 

79S. Did you make any representation to the government upon this parti- 
cular case? — The magistrate was the government ; it was under the presi- 
dency of Madras ; he was the only magistrate in the district. 

799- Did you appeal from that magistrate to the government of Madras? 
— I do not know whether I did or not. Here is every representation I have 
ever made to the authorities of Madras. 

800. At the time that this occurred, did you make any representation to 
the government of Madras upon that particular point? — I cannot recollect, it 
is several years ago, without going into these document!). Here is every 
representation I ever made to the government of Madras, and the answers I 
received; that is, copies of them. Here is the general representation of the 
subject to Sir Thomas Munro, which caused, I believe, his journey into the 
district : 

No, 1. — " To the Honourable the Governor General in Council, Fort St. George. 

■■ Ramnad, iiOth May 18-26. 
Extract.— " Further, thou^ at the risk of transmiuion, which is equal to death, the 
general state of this zUlah loudly calls for investigation. I know but little of it ; but do 
not hesitate to say, that it is not governed according to law in those few points that 
have been regulated by law ; it groans under the most degrading despotism ; entirely 
in the hands of natives, unchecked, without responsibility, out supported with irresisti' 
ble force. 

" I have the honour to be, &c." 

Immediately after Sir Thomas Munro came into the Madura district, I 
expected a full investigation, and accordingly requested the collector to lay 
lMm>rs the governor the following charges, contained in letter No. 149. Sir 
Tbomu Munro did not investigate die state of the district; he returned 
9g^ to Madrai, where I agaia addressed him. 

. .. No. 4- 




70 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

28 Feb. 1631. No. 4. — ^"To the Honourable the Governor General in Council, Fort StGeorge. 

•■ Sir: " Ranmad, 24 Sept. 1826. 

P. GordoH, Etq. •• I beg leave to state that the native inhabitants are subjected to ttie kittee and other 

tortures ; that those tortures are frequently wantonly and unjustly applied ; that they 
are applied at the discretion of the peons ; that they are applied to collect revenue, to 
extort money, and that in June 1824, at Madura cutchery, I saw near cnte hundred 
villa^ accountants in a painful posture. 

" I have the honour to be, &c. 

" Peter Gordon." 

801. Did you get any aaawer to that letter? — None; it is not the custom 
of the Madras goverament to answer complaints. 

802. You are generally acquainted with the Madras territory?— With the 
southern part of it I am. 

803. State the condition of the roads and hridges in that country?— It 
may be said there are none whatever; none exist beyond the jurisdiction of 
the supreme court at Madras, or the town of Madras. 

804. How are the rivers generally passed? — On rude rails of split bamboo 
and earthen pots, which are coutinually sinking, and sometimes by swimming 
across in an earthen pot. 

80J. Are there any very extensive works for irrigation you are acquainted 
with? — None particularly deserving notice. The whole system of cultivation 
is by irrigation ; but there is no work deserving particular notice. 

806. Do you know at all what is expended by the Madras presidency in 
keeping those works in repair for irrigation ? — The Board of Revenue is 
reported to have expended the enormous sum of £60.000 a year on an 
average often years for the whole territory. 

S07. Is there not a great tank for the irrigation of Ramnad ? — There is a 
large tank. 

808. lo what state is it ? — As rude as possible ; a slovenly dam of mud 
across a torrent. 

809. Is that an ancient or a modem construction ? — Very ancient. 

810. Is there one at Madura ?— There is a fine tank outside the city gate ; 
a teppacolom. 

81 1. In what state of repair Is it ?— It is so substantially built, that it does 
not require repair ; it is a work of native construction. 

812. You stated you were some time resident at Saugur Island ?— For 
three months I was. 

813. Can you give any account of the quantity of land under cultivation 
there ? — Yes, I can, by referring to memorandums published in the Calcutta 
papers. " Saugur Island. — The islets of Saugur are dreadfully unwhole- 
some ; the stream of cofiee-coloured water by which the ship is surrounded 
sufficiently indicates by its tint the inundations that have supplied it." *' A 
few Europeans who Hve in Meerzapore, a suburb of Calcutta, su^r greatly 

from 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 71 

from climate. My sircar said he never went near the bad water that flows 
up the salt water lake to Eotallee, without sickness and head.«che."-~ 
Heber. 

814. Is Saueur Island at the present moment wholesome or nnwbole- 
some ? — The climate of Saugur I am not inclined to consider worse than 
other parts of the unbounded shores of the Hoogly, below Calcutta. 

815. Was not it conndered, before the clearing of the jungle, an unwhole- 
some spoti^— It was. 

816. What sum of money has been expended upon it by private indivi- 
duals? — Ten lacks of rupees. 

817. Do you consider the soil of Saugur islands generally fertile or not ?-— 
The soil is the richest loam to the depth of twenty feet, of inexhaustible fer- 
tili^, requiring sand as much as any other manure, and retaining the water 
in tanks, whicn are formed cheap enough to be available for watering the 
general crops, and exposed only to evaporation and extraordinary floods : 
even there, floods may be guarded against by extraordinary high bounds. 

818. Do yon know, with respect to cottMi, what sort of cotton is culti- 
vated in that part of India you are acquainted with ; is it of good quality ?— 
That of the Company's territory, it is the worst qtulity that comes into the 
British market 

819. Have the Company taken any steps to improve it?— The cotton 
produced in the islands of Seychelles and Bourbon is the finest cotton in the 
world. 

820. Have the Company taken, to your knowledge, any means to im^ve 
the cultivation of cotton ? — Very trifling, scarcely worth mentioning. They 
have had a few bales of seed brought to Tinnevelly, and machinery sent 
lately to Bombay. 

8S1. What have been the results of their attempts to improve the cotton ? 
— It is at present the worst cotton grown in any part of the world, like every 
other Indian product. 

822. Are there any plantations undn their own immediate management ? 
—None, that I am aware of. 

823. Is not the machinery by which the cotton is now cleaned of a very 
inferior description in India ? — ^Very inferior. 

824. Can you describe what it is ? — It is a small machine that costs six- 
pence, and cleans it very ruddy indeed, turned by the hand, and with a 
very great loss of labour } it requirea no strength, but occajHes the whole of 
tiw time of one person ^ it ia the common Bengal po. 

825. Does it dean tt thmnngbly ?*— No^ it feqsuvs to be cleansed by a 
bow-string wbkh breaks it topieoM. 

826. Have yoa seen the madrinaiy now med io America? — Yes { I saw a 
gin sentbj lu. Fiddingtoo to Sugar Uud. 

ZV' I>oes 




72 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA . AFFAIRS : 

28 Feb. 1831. 827- Does that do its work efiectually ?— It wasnotftt wtMrk^ but it i« a 

p r^^ F '^^t'^''"^^*^**")^*'^^" ^h® otters are- In Bengal I have seen, niodels of mills 
^^'^^^^ '* and other gins, that save an immense deal of labour. , , 

828. What would be the cost of that machine in fitting it up P-r-^A very few 
pounds ; five pounds at the utmost. 

829* Have not the natives a great prejudice against using any of that ma- 
chinery ?— •None that I am aware of, not even for grinding their , own floun 
At present the Hindoos buy flour from the strand mills in Calcutta, wherei it 
is ground by steam machinery. 

830. What is produced on the estate you have mentioned as belonging to 
Messrs. Beaufort and Company, at Travancore : — The first object was the 
naturalization and cultivation of cinnamon : they procured seeds and plapts 
from the island of Ceylon, and engaged cinnamon cultivators. 

831. Has it succeded ? — It has only been a few years in progrei^ and I 
have not heard of it for the last three years. 

832. Do they grow pepper ? — I cannot say, particularly. I am aware they 
have tried every thing that held out the chance of cultivation ; they sent- to 
me respecting chaya root and cotton. 

833. That estate is considered to have succeeded as far as it has gone?— 
I cannot say; it is a large estate, and not improved. It being under the 
native government they have no certain tenure ; they are assured that the 
taxes and rent shall not be raised ; but whenever the Ranee pleases to change 
her mind, or is persuaded by any of her allies to do so, they may be asses^d 
without any appeal. The existence of their property depends upon the will 
of the Company's resident at Travancore. 

834. Who is the Ranee's dewan at present ? — I do not know. The resi- 
dent was a military officer, lately appointed. 

835. Is not the quality of the cotton of Tinnevelly remarkably good? — 
Compared with other Indian cottons, it is the best, except Seychelles arid 
Bourbon. 

836. Does not it admit of very extensive cultivation ?^-l believe it pan jbe 
extended considerably, and improved considerably. There is a posjtive 
proof that the general quality of the Tinnevelly cotton can be improved ; 
that which is cultivated by Mr. Hughes on his own land is better tbari the 
rest. 

837. Do you know the price it sells for here ? — No, I cannot speak to £hat 
rightly; it has varied of late. ' ^^' 

838. Do you know it has been sold as high as l5., whereas . other Indian 
cottons are selling as low as Ad. or 5d. ? — I do not know that, but I have 
always understood it fetched a much better price. It is prepared under his 
own inspection and daily observation of the cleaning of it, and is setii to his 
agent in London. 

839. How 



SELECT COMiMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 73 

m 

8d9. How loDg did you reside in India? — -In 1810 I first proceeded there. 

840. Did any of your relations reside there at that time ?*— They did ; I 
went out in company with a cousin. 

841. Your father? — My father had been in India before me ; he died in 
1805. 

842. Some of your brothers were resident there ? — Not at that time. A 
cousin was resident there, with whom I went out in the same ship : he went 
out with my father, and was several years sailing about with my father. 

843. Did you go out with a license from the Company, or by an invitation 
from your father? — My fiather was dead. 

844. You had a license from the Company ? — No, I had not ; I never had 
a license. One was offered to me by Lestock Wilson, Esq. member of a 
house in the Old Jewry ; but I was told in the same breath (I believe the 
gentleman was a Director at that time) that it was not at all necessary. I 
never found it necessary, and was never asked for it during twenty years I 
have navigated in India. 

845. You went out as a mariner ? — I went as fourth mate of the Fort 
William. 

846. How many years did you exercise the profession of mariner exclu- 
sively, without any commercial pursuit ?— ^Until I entered into contracts with 
the Company's government at Madras. 

847. Were you then trading on your own account, or as the agent of 
other parties ? — Joint account ; partner with the house of Scott and Co. of 
Calcutta, as far as regarded the transactions under my own management. 

848. That was the commencement of your commercial life ?— No ; a 
mariner or a mate of a ship is generally concerned more or less in trade ; and 
before that I had owned part of a vessel and cargo in the trade of Calcutta. 

849* Your first contract with government was in 1824? — The first con- 
tract I remember forming was in 1824. In 1823 I had charge of the con- 
tracts that were formed ; the correspondence begins with Rous Peter, Esq. 
collector of Ramnad, under the date of 29th May 1823. 

850. Your lease was merely that of the chank fishery ?— «I had leases of the 
chank fishery and of the chaya-root farms of Ramnad, and of the Tinnevelly 
chank fishery. 

851. Immediately, or very soon afler you went to reside at Ramnad, you 
were engaged in a correspondence with the collector?— Immediately I went 
to reside at Ramnad I was engaged in a correspondence with the collector 
of the Madura zillah. 

852. That correspondence was conducted in a respectful manner on your 
part, and civilly upon his part, was not it?— -Here is the whole correspon- 
dence, every letter that ever passed between us or any of the authorities of 
Madras. 

L 853. Did 



74 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

^ Feb. 1881. 853. Did you complain of any exaction of duty on his part ?— Frequently 
P C dan. Eaa ^ ^^^V^^^^^^ of exactionfi of duties. 

854. What answers did you receive to those complaints ?— -They are con- 
tained in these documents. 

8.55. What answers were they ? — Various ; they are contained here. 

856. Were they satisfactory, or otherwise ?— Always very unsatisfactory, 
totally unsatisfactory. 

857- On what ground did you consider them unsatisfactory ? — My opinions 
of them are stated in these documents, to which I beg to refer. 

858. Did he not state the authority upon which all his exactions were 
made ? — He did not. 

859* In no instance?-^ In few, if any instances ; I do not remember any 
specific instance in which he did. Those bills that were paid, those demands 
that were complied with, there of course I admitted the authority. 

860. Did he ever charge you with having removed any of those articles 
without paying the duty which you were bound to pay ? — He did. 

861. He charged you with the ofience commonly known by the name of 
smuggling ? — No, not that I am aware of. 

862. Were your goods seized at any time ? — Frequently. 

863. On the ground of your having evaded the duties ?-— And several 
parcels yet continue under seizure. 

864. Upon the ground of your having evaded the duty ? — The whole cor-» 
respondence is here contained.] 

865. Was that the ground ? — No ; that I would not pay the duties, but 
not evading the duties. I had sent on different routes waggon loads and 
cargoes of goods, and I would not pay the duties that were perfectly illegal 

866. On what ground did you resist the payment ? — On various grounds, 
according to the circumstances, because the demands were illegal and against 
law. 

867. That he had no right to exact any duty, or that it was a surcharge ? 
-—This is the first reference I made to the government of Madras (Letter 
No. 1, to the Secretary of the Board of Revenue, Fort St. Geoi^ge, dated 
Ramnad, 23d May 1825) ; the local correspondence had been going on some 
time. 

868. Did vou resist the payment of the duty because it was illegal and 
unauthorized, or because of the rate of duty ? — ^The great cause of com- 
plaint was, the law says, " No duty shall be received except at the established 
choukies)'' but at other places, unauthorized choukies, duties were demanded. 

869. What law do you refer to ? — The Madras government regulations of 
1812. 

870. Did you, or did you not, on any occasion in 1826, remove a quantity 

of 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. ^5 

of chaya root without payment of the duty to Government ?— I was con- 
stantly removing loads of chaya root, and there were frequent complaints 
about it The one I suppose that is alluded to was in a schooner. 

871. Did you on any occasion, in 1826, send away a quantity of chaya 
root without the payment of duty ? — No, 1 did not, positively at no period, 
either in 1826 or any other period. 

872. Are the Committee to understand you never did send away chaya 
root from the district without paying the duty? — I never did; I never 
attempted it nor desired it. I have always paid the legal duty, and more 
than the legal duty. 

873. Was any of your chaya root seized ? — I have mentioned various loads 
are under seizure, but none have been brought to trial. I have invited trial, 
but been requested to remove loads of chaya root, and I would not. 

87 i. Were they seized on the ground of your not having paid the duty ?— 
Here are the particulars, and the whole correspondence. 

875. Answer the question shortly ? — Illegal duties were demanded and 
refused. 

876. Upon what authority did you pronounce the duty illegal ? — I con- 
sider legal only those authorized by the printed regulations of the Madras 
government. 

877* Is the Committee to understand that those duties were beyond the 
rates specified in the regulations ? — Quite against the regulations. I believe 
in every case, and every demand I resisted was eventually abandoned by the 
Madras government and the local government What I was not allowed to do 
at one time, I was always allowed to do afterwards. I was even allowed, 
and the order is contained here from Mr. Peter, that my boats and goods 
should not be detained on any pretence, on any part or the territory, but 
that they should pass free. 

878. Did you continue to be the agent of Messrs. Scott and Company 
during the >ivholeof your residence in India, till you came home?— I did. 

879. You were not invited by them to leave Madura, and come to Madras 
in 1827? — In 1826, by Messrs. Arbuthnot and Company, my agents. I was 
the attorney of Messrs. Scott and Company on the Coromandel coast, and 
their partners in these concerns. References were made by me to Messrs. 
Arbuthnot and Company, who negociated with the Madras government, and 
requested me to come up and explain, which I considered to be a summons 
from the government, and instantly obeyed it, under the idea that it was a 
summons from the government, which it proved to be. 

880. Was not the ground of their calling you to Madras, the offensive cor- 
respondence that had taken place between you and the collector at Madura ? 
— I suspected it was, but had no ground for proof until Rous Peter, Esquire, 
said to me, in 1828, when a prisoner before him, '* you may not be in these 
districts } formerly you were removed by the order of governmeot*'' 

L2 881. You 



76 ^II!)B«CB 0^r feAST-INDIA AtellilS: 

28 Feb. 1831; 881. You w6t^ abteAt a year at Madras, and then retunieq io Ramnady 

— T- . did not you?— From Madras I went to Ceylon. 
P, Gordcnj 9q> gg^ y^^ ^ff^x^ absent for a year, and returned after a year to Aamnad ? 

— -I was absent from Ramnad nearly a year, and then returned to Ramnad. 
883. What time was it ? — Christmas I8S7, I returned to Ramnad, 
884^ Were you then, or not, called upon for your license by the ooUectbr, 
upon your return to Ramnad ? — On the 27th of November 1827f I returned 
to Ramnad ; on the 4th of December 1827, 1 addressed a note to the sub-ool- 
lector of Madura ; on the 28th of December 1827, I wrote the following 
letter to the magistrate of the zillah Madura. 

885. Were you called upon for your license by the authorities at Madura ? 
—This will state it. 

• 

886. Were you or not called upon to produce your license for residing at 
Madura ? — He demands my passport ; he says, he is come as a police officeri 
and demands my passport ; I was not asked for a license ; a license and 
passport are materially different things. 

887. What is the difference between a license and a passport ? — -A license 
is a document obtained in England, which I never had any occasion for. 

888. You are aware they are granted by the government there ? — There 
are frequent instructions from the honourable Court of Directors to the go- 
vernments in India, forbidding them to grant any license of residlence. A 
license of residence in Indiais necessarily and properly only granted by the 
Directors or the Board of Control, but a license to reside in the ji^residehqy 
ten miles in the interior, is granted by the local governor. 

889. Were you or not, in fact, asked for the authority under which you 
resided, and refused to produce it ? — On Christmas day a Tamut officer, a 
police officer of the district, paid his Christmas respects to the family in which 
I was, and ornamented them with garlands of flowers^ which is customary ; 
on the 28th of December he sent a message to me that he would wait on me, 
and pay his respects to me. I expected a Christmas visit which I did not 
wish to receive, and I sent word back, I would not receive him ; that I was 
passing shortly through the district, and was not prepared to receive hiin. He 
then intruded himself as a visitor to me, after having been refused ; he with 
much noise says, ** he is come as a police officer, and demands my passport.*' 
He first came as a visitor, and when I would not receive him, he came as a 
police officer. I was residing there ; I was not travelling. 

890. Did you produce a passport? — No more than I should at present. 

891. You were apprehended in consequence, were you not?— I made a 
statement to the magistrate of Madura, and the reply was, from the joint 
magistrate, '* The ameena has received my orders to require from you to 
state by what authority you are now in these districts.'' The one demanded 
an authority for passing through the district, and the other for residing in 
the district. 

892. You 



SELECT ,CQMMITTEE of rag HOUSE OF CXJJ^MONS. 77 

892. You were apprehended in consequence ?*— Peoni were put over xoe ; 
but I have been making application to know why I was appreheodedt to hia 
Majesty's Justice of the Peace, to the local governments, to the supreme 
government, and to the Court of Directors; but I have not yet got any an- 
swer, and I have never yet seen the warrant. 

893. How long did you remain under the surveillance of the peons? — 
** Madura, Sunday noon, March the 2d, 1828. A passport to Ramnadporam 
is just now handed to me/' 

894. How long were you detained ? — Two months it is. I am desirous 
of referring to official documents : it was handed to me afler repeated appH- 
cations. 

895. That was at the close of your confinement ? — That was the only 
means by which I could leave the place to which I had been marched. 

896. State the precise period of your confinement ? — ^From the 28th ^ 
December to the 2d of March. 

897- Did you, or not, receive a summons from the magistrate before you 
Mrere placed under any restraint ?— I did not receive any summons of any 
description, or any notice or notification of any kind ; no message or com- 
munication from any magistrate or person. 

898. Are you quite sure of it? — No communication whatever from any 
magistrate until my communication to him that I was a prisoner, though I 
baa been a month on the coast. 

899* Did you, or did you not, receive any communication from a ma- 
gistrate ; did you not receive a written document of any kind under the 
authority of a magistrate, before your arrest? — The first communication was 
the joint magistrate's letter of the 29th of December, in reply to the letter I 
sent informing him I was arrested. 

900. That was explaining the ground of your confinement. You are sure 
you did not receive any written document, or indorse it with your signature 
or initials ? — This reply is the first document I received for about a year from 
my departure, until a month after my return to the coast ; there bad been 
no communication between the Madura authorities and myself for about a 
year afler i had first left in October 1826. 

901* Were you brought before a magistrate on any occasion during your 
arrest or before it ? — I was marched to Madura, a distance of about sixty 
miles, by armed natives, and then taken before his Majesty*s justice of the 
peaces Rous Peter, Esq. 

902. What day was it?— The 7th of January 1828. 

903. That was after you had been a month in confinement ?-^No, eleven 
days, when James Taylor, Esq., now a member of the council at Madras, 
was present, together with several other English gentlemen. 

904. Were any questions put to you on that occasion ?— Mr. < 



78 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

2^ Fel>. 1831. assistant to the magistrate, said, *< You are sent for to know by what authority 
— ^ you are in these districts." 

ormnj gq. ^^^ ^.^ ^^^ make any answer? — I replied, "I request to see the copy 

of the warrant for my arrest," 

906. In fact, you answered the questions by putting of a question to the 
magistrate, and did not give him any answer to his questions ? — I did so^ 
as I understand it is the birthright of a Briton not to be put on any trial or 
interrogatory until a specific charge is brought against him. 

907. Was not the charge against you specific ; namely, that of residini 
without a license within the district ? — To this hour I have not seen any suci 
charge. 

908. You mentioned an appeal to Sir Thomas Munro in the year 1826 ; 
did you receive no answer to any of your applications? — I have received two 
letters from the honourable the Governor in Council of Fort St. George. 

909. Will you state the contents of that dated the 6th of February 1827? 
-—I do not find it. 

910. Did you receive any communications from the governor, or any of 
his officers, on the 6th of February 1827, to this effect; that if the collector 
had dealt illegally with you, he was amenable for it to the zillah court in 
which you resided ? — Yes, I did receive that letter. 

911. What did you do upon receiving that letter ? — I replied to it : 

No. 2. — " A. Chamier, Esq.^ Acting Revenue Secretary of the Government, 

Fort St. George. 

'' Sir : " Vepery, I4th of February 1827. 

" I am honoured with your letter of the 6th instant. I begged of government that 
I might receive information concerning the constitution and regulation of the chank 
fishery of Ramnad : your reply seems for this information to refer me to the printed 
copies of the regulations. I he^ to state, that in those regulations I find implied 

Erohibitions of such monopoly, but no shadow showed of sanction for it. I beg the 
onourdble the Governor in Council will be pleased to cause inquiry into the existing 
monopoly of chank shells under the presidency, also into the powers of a renter at 
Ramnad for the support of a monopoly of chanks." 

912. What steps did you take in consequence of this communication from 
the government at Madras, directing you to prefer your complaint to the 
zillah court? — In the first place, my belief is that the reference was against 
the act of Parliament, 53 Geo. IIL ; and with the permission of the Com- 
mittee I will produce the opinion of Mr. Robert Cutlar Fergusson, advo- 
cate-general of the Company, on this point, as submitted to him by the 
Bengal government, concerning the possibility of one European impleading 
another in the courts of the Company. 

913. Have you got that opinion ? — I can produce it. 

914. How long had you resided at Ramnad without a license from the 
government? — From the beginning of 1823 until the end of 1827- 

915. You 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 79 

91^« You suted you were engaged in the chank fiaheiy on that part of 
the coast ? — Yes. 

916. Were you so engaged with the knowledge of the government? — 
Under the authority of the govern ment, by a contract with the government. 

917* Under those circumstances, did you conceive it necessary to have 
any other h'cense to reside at Ramnad ? — ^No, nor do I conceive it necea» 
sary : it is in my power to return to India as freely as to Liverpool. 

918. Are you at the present moment the renter of this fishery ? — ^At the 
time I left India : the lease of Tinnevelly was ours until 12th July 1830. 

919* At the time of your arrest you were the renter of the fishery under 
the government ? — Yes, until the moment of my departure from Calcuttat on 
the 15th June 18S0. 

920. You stated, you invited a trial upon the litigated points between you 
and the collector ? — Yes. 

921. How ? — By letter. I offered to deposit the amount of every demand 
made upon me in the supreme court of Madras. 

92S. To whom did you make that offer ?— -Both to the c(dlector and the 
Board of Revenue. 

925. You have stated, the duties demanded of you were illegal duties ; 
were any duties payable upon the export of those chank shelb ?-i-*There 
never was any dispute concerning the chank duties ; it was concerning 
other articles. Duties were chargeable upon the chank shells, and always 
paid. 

924. To what articles did your answer refer ? — The first was on the import 
of British iron, that was the origin of the dispute : sixteen per cent, on 
the invoice value of British iron was demanded and insisted on oy the native 
servants of the Company. 

9ftS. You resisted the payment of that duty ? — ^Yes. 

926. Does it appear upon the Madras regulations that anv duty is payable 
upon British iron into Madura ? — Quite the contrary i by tne express law it 
is exeoipt 

927. Does not the Act of Parliament prevent the granting a license to 
Europeans to reside in India by authorities at the difierent presidencies ?— I 
aikl not aware that Parliament has deprived the Indian government of the 
r^t of licensing Europeans to reside in India ; but the Uirecton have con- 
stantly forbidden them to do sa 

928. Was there any other point, except that of the duty upon iron, on 
which you had a difference with the collector ? — Several others, concerning 
the duties inland, and the sea^duties on chaya root, and the valuation on the 
tariff: it was overvalued three times its amount ; and almost if not every 
point that came into dispute was given up by the government. 

929. C 



80 EVJDEKCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

28 Feb. 1891. 9^. C^n yx)u state fo tbe CommUtee the duties pajfible<upQii fbat^-chayia 

root? — Inland transit duty, £ve per cent . j. 

P GorAm, Riq. ^^^ r^^^^ appears upon the regulations ?— Yes. 

931. What demand was made upon you upon that bead, what per- 
centage P-— Payable only on passing the choukio} and it was frequently 
demanded where it did not approach a cbouki^ on its coining, iotp my 
stores. 

93S. Was tbere any choukie between the place where the chaya root was 
collected and your own store? — There was no choukie; it passed the 
choukie merely on its way to Madura for sale. 

933. How far were your stores from the place where the chaya root ^^as 
collected ?-~AII round the store, from the very door of the stores, but' ten 
miles from a choukie. 

934. Do the Committee understand the duty on this chaya root was 
demanded from you before coming into the store ?— Yes, on remoring fVdm 
one store to another. 

935. To what distance ? — The whole length of the coast, 120 miles. 

936. Do you conceive such a demand was legal or illegal i^— It Vas 
abandoned by the government 

937. How soon after you commenced collecting chaya root wits the 
demand made upon you ? — ^Not until after the disputes concerning British 
iron. 

938. Can you state the year?— About 1825 or 182t>. 

939. When did you commence collecting chaya root ? — The 12th of Joly 
1824. 



Jams, ^die Martii, 1831. 

PETER GORDON, Esq. again called in, and examined. 

Ji March 1831. 940. You stated, on the last day you were examined, that you irere 

desired by the government of Madras to proceed against the individuiU who 

P. Gordon, Etg. had aggrieved you in the zillah court r — I did. 

941. Will you state the reason why you did not take that course ?-~Hei^ 
is theopinionof the advocate-general of Bengal, stating tbataBritiflh'subjiect 
cannot be impleaded by another British subject in any of the country courts : 
and that the law on the subject stands as it did previously to the passing of 
the Act of the 53 Geo. III. c. 155. This is signed, " R. C. F&roussoNj 
January 28th, 1818." 

942. Had you not the means of proceeding against that gentleman in the 
supreme court of Madras?— I attempted it subsequently as a criminal suit, 

and 




SELECT COMMITIEE of the H0US£ OF COMMONS. 81 

ttni] the opinion of the derk of the Crown was given in on the first day of 
my examination, that I had no means of obtaining redress. 

943. You state, that you were advised to proceed civilly in the zillah court 
■gainst the gentleman referred to; that yon were then advised by the 
advocate-general that you could not proceed in that court ; why did you not 
proceed in the same manner in the supreme court ? — I knew that, at the time 
tlie supreme court was established, it had not jurisdiction in revenue a^rs, 
and 1 suppose that to be the case at present. I frequently, as I have already 
stated, ofiered to deposit the amount of every claim made upon me in the 
supreme court, and wished to try the legality of the demands, but I never 
could have it brought to a trial. 

944. This was a question of customs, was it not ?— Yes ; and the customs 
are a branch of revenue. The supreme court cannot proceed in affairs of 
customs : the local regulation for the management of the Madras customs 
enacts that disputes at the custom-house of Madras shall be tried in the zillah 
court at Chingleput; especially in the Madras regulations, first, second and 
third, of 181«. 

945. Do you mean to say that the result of the advice you obtained was, 
that there was no court in India in which you could obtain redress?— I did 
my utmost to obtain redress in India at various times, and here is a note from 
the supreme government, referring me to the Court of Directors : 

" The case referrtHl to in this letter was the act of the Madras j^ovemment, the 
papers and proceedings relating to wliich are on record at (hat presidency, and the 
case is not one admitting or requiring the interference of the supreme government. Mr. 
P. Gordon may prefer ois complaint to the Court of Directors, who EaTe the power of 
controlling Bucn matters, and to whom tlic appeal naturally lies. 

" H. T. Pbinsep, 

" Calcutta, 3d June, 1830. " Secretary." 

946. The question refers to redress from the court of justice ; do you 
mean to say that you were advised that there was no court of justice in India 
in which you could obtain redress? — 1 believe that there was no court of 
justice in India in which I could obtain redress. 

947. Is it not the fact, that the internal customs is mixed up with land 
revenue as well as the farms and that the King's courts have no jurisdiction 
therein ? — I believe that to be the case ; it has been so by Act of Parliament. 
The'system has been changed occasionally, but as far as I know, that is now 
tbe system. I did my utmost, both in courts of law and by applications to 
(be Madras government, and to the supreme government : tne opinion of 
Mr. -fetigusson was taken 00 a reference by the supreme government previous 
to tay. case: 

948. Did you consult English counsel upon the subject ? — "niere are 
oritnf' ApuMs^'^od have been for several yean, and of course on every 

"*" ' " A* {: did 'B»t consult counsel} but on tbe great point of ray 
M persooal 




82 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

:) Marcli I83t. personal arrest I did consult counsel. Nothing but a criminal proceeding 

~~ would satisfy me ; a civil proceeding would have been an insult, after having 

/'. Gordon, Esq. ^^^^ arrested and marched through the country, and treated in the way in 

which I was treated. The meanest individual in this country is entitled to 

a criminal proceeding against any magistrate who arrests him improperly, 

and I considered myself endtled to the same in India. 

949- What is the fee usually paid to a counsel ? — The expense altogether 
of counsel and attorney, taking this particular opinion, was, I thinks five or 
six hundred rupees (about £60) ; and the detention, having noother business 
at Madras, was upwards of six weeks, during which time I was living at a 
tavern, and not attending to any other business : with loss of time it cost 
about £300. 

950. Have you been in the habit occasionally of assisting the natives with 
your advice?— Constantly, whenever it was in my power. 

9^1. In cases of hardship, and complaints they have had to make?— 
Whenever it was in my power. In 1816 a Committee of the House of Com- 
mons being appointed to inquire into the situation of Lascar seamen when in 
England, three letters of mine were laid before the Committee. About that 
time I published a tract on the situation of the Lascars in this country. I 
mention this as an instance, that at an early period I interested myself about 
the natives, and of course the same system has always been continued. 

952. Is not that considered a very unacceptable interference on the part 
of the authorities in India ? — Exceedingly so. 

9^3. Is it not sufficient to draw down the wrath and jealousy of the govern- 
ment towards you? — Especially on the subject of purveyance, concerning 
which some of my most violent disputes originated. 

954. Will you describe to the Committee what you mean by purveyance? 
— The supply of the table of Europeans generally with all articles of food 
produced in the villages; sheep, fowls, hay, straw, firewood, labour, and 
other articles, but not rice. 

955. Are all those supplied at certain rates ? — A tariS'is published of fixed 
rates, at which they must be supplied by the natives, and ought to be paid 
for by the goveniment's servants ; but these articles are seized, and generally 
the natire does not receive any thing whatever. 

956. Seized by whom ? — By the native servant, for the use of the Euro* 
peaii traveller and European officer ; for the use of myself it was done 
frequently. The native officers of revenue-police are glad to have the name 
of an European to make use of; they seize> perhaps, a dozen sheep, and 
supply one to the European. 

957. What may be the nominal price they allow for a sheep ?— I can lay 
the Madura rates before the Committee, and also the market rates. 

958. Do they bear any reasonable proportion to each other ?— One half, 

generally 



I 



SELECT COiMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 83 

generally speaking ; but in reality the natives do not receive any thing for 
what is taken from them. 1 have frequently seen at the cutchery a hundred 
fowls collecting, and at the head police-office in Madura there is a constant 
supply of sheep and poultry kept up for the table of the judge and collector, 
gratis. 

959. By whom are the rates of price fixed ?^^By the collector of the 
revenue. It is considered a service, and publicly collected from the villagers, 
without any secrecy. 

960. Do the natives receive nothing ? — Generally speaking, tliey do not 
actually receive anything 

9CI. Do the Europeans pay nothing? — Occasionally they do. 

9G2. To whom does that money go ? — To the native servants of the 
government. There are written regulations well known in all the cutcheries, 
that is, the office of the judge and of the collector. Purveyance is managed 
by the police. The collector, being a magistrate, collects for the table of the 
judge (the judge cannot collect for himself) ; and by this system the col* 
lector, of course, has a considerable degree of influence, and can make the 
situation of a judge very uncomfortable, in not supplying him. 

903. Does not the judge pay according to the tariff prices to somebody .^— 
At Madura I should think not. 

9fi4. Is that a common practice, according to your experience? — It is. 
On the arrival of Mr. Nelson as sub-collector of Ramnad, it was mentioned to 
me, that the peon, as usual, had applied in the village of Aitexgaric for the 
supply of oysters and fish. 1 sent a message to the peon, requesting him to 
come to mc ; he appeared, and produced a written order, which 1 have 
copied and translated. I sent a note to Mr. Nelson, representing the cir- 
cumstance to him, and during the whole of his residence in the zemindary 
he never took the smallest article whatever without paying for it, which was 
particularly noticed and spoken of daily by the natives. 

965. To whom did he pay ? — He paid the person from whom it was taken, 
whenever he possibly could, under his own eye, and the natives always 
acknowledged they were never robbed on his accoinU. 

966. To whom do the natives complain, on such occasions, of the rob- 
beries committed ? — There is no person to whom they can complain ; it is 
done by the magistrate, and for the magistrate and his friends. 

9^)7 • If they show dissatisfaction upon those occasions, are they not liable 
to punishment ? — Of course they are ; but still many dis|)utes occur between 
them and the revenue police officers. When they come to a village, if there 
are any strong influential people, and it is a populous village, there is 
occasionally considerable resistance. The villages of Mussulmen are, by 
usage, exempted from the greater part of this service ; it falls entirely on ttie 
lower classes of natives, on the lowest and most depressed. 

968. Does the magistrate live quite free of expense for articles of that 

M 2 kind ?— 



S4 ' EVIBBNCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS j - 

a March 18SI. kind ? — For sheepi fowls, straw, and other articles, he arid; all his attendants 

about him, natives and Europeans, live and travel nearly^ if not quite, free. 

P. Gwdon, Eiq. There was one case which I brought to trial, and the magiiitrate punished 

the officer who made the collection : but it was with a great deal of trouble I 
brought this to trial, aA;er a great deal <of evasion by the magistrates. 

969* Are there not similar demands made for officers, civil and military^ 
travelling in the country ?^-There are for Europeans generally. 

970. Does that demand include the supply of the native servants travellmg 
with him ? — It does. 

971. Do they not travel sometimes with large numbers attending them ? 
Some hundreds. 

972. Is it not, then, considered quite a visitation in a district when an 
officer comes that way? — It is ; and at Madura it is usual for the Europeans 
and head native servants to have the cows of the natives, which are brought 
to their house, and remain with them till they are dry, when they are changed 
for fresh cows. 

973. For what length of time? — As long as they can be milked. Aa 
European resident, a judge or collector, will have twenty. 

974. Is there any payment made for this supply. — None. 

975. From what district is the supply of provisions for Madura drawn ?— 
From the district of Madura. 

976. Of what extent is that ? — It contains nearly 1,000,000 souls. 

977. Is it in general drawn in great proportion from the immediate neigh- 
bourhood of the town ? — Generally from the neighbourhood of the town ; 
but many villages, castes, and persons are exempt from it ; as in the town 
of Madura, there would be no person who has not some degree of protection 
keeping fowls ; the police, peons, and invalid soldiers, and persons who have 
any degree of protection, are able to keep fowls. 

978. Are not the personal services of the natives called for equally ?— They 
are, except as bearers of palanquins. 

979. Are they for carriage by bullocks ? — They are for carrying goods 
belonging to the government. If the government seizes a quantity of chaya 
root for arrears of rent, they press the bullocks, and cause it to be carried at 
their own tariff rate, and boats are pressed in the same manner for transport? 
ing chanks and other services. 

980. Are there tariff rates paid upon those occasions? — They are some^ 
times paid, and sometimes promised ; they are entered into the village account. 
Even the written code of regulations says they shull be entered into account,, 
and that does not render it necessary to make payment at the time. 

981. Are those rates sufficient to remunerate the individuals whose per- 
sonal services or cattle are required ? — A few of the principal people gain by 
|his system ; for every trade is managed by a kind of guild, and the heads of 

eacK 



SELECT <X)MMITT£fi of tox HOUSE ^F CX>MMONS. $$ 



eadig^itd are uttially intimate and friendly with the officers of po]ice»-»Tbey 
arrange in such a manner, that it is rather favourable^to the head >of<thejflttild 
to have these services to perform ; but it falls heavUy on the poorer peojpTeit is 
the cattle drivers and others. J^^!i 

98?. Witt you explain how it is favourable to one party, and tot fa'dtherft? 
-^Itis favourable to the influential people of the caste or guild. With r^rd 
to the carriers and bullock-drivers, every transaction is in a degree profitable 
to a few of the influential head men of the caste or tribe. 

983. Does that arise from the payment being made to him ?-^By its being 
managed by him. 

984^. The payment of the persons under him being lefl to his direction ?«— 
Yes, it is all by management ; they manage it as well as they can among 
them. The police must keep friendly with each guild, or turn the head 
men out whenever they will not carry on the management of the trade ia 
conjunction with the police. 

985. Whenever the natives can, do they make resistance ?— They do. 

986. Does the privilege of purveyance extend to those who happeilto 
travel for commercial purposes ? — It does, in a degree, by the written instru^ 
ments which I have had copied niany times. These instructions render it 
incumbent upon the native police-omcers to provide for Europeans; so 
much so, that it is absolutely necessary, on arriving at a town, to apply to 
the native police-officers of the town to get supplied, and the traveller pays, 
if he has no particular influence with the police-officers. 

987. Does that arise from there being a want of inns in the towns ?^-In a 
great measure from that, and also from a want of faith ; for if a traveller was 
to go to a village and buy fowls, he would And a difficulty. They have 
such a disgust at supplying travellers, that whenever they can withhold 
supplies they do it ; and if he was to pay the native into his own hand, 
without witnesses, after his passage from the village, by means of the natives 
and the neglected police-officers together, most likely there would be a 
complaint that he had taken his supplies without payment ; therefore his 
proper and legal mode of making payment is by applying to the police-officer, 
and on quitting the village to get his receipt 

988. What is the punishment usually inflicted upon those who do not 
comply with requisitions of this nature r — It is seized by force. 

989* Is the dawk established at Madura ? — Not so regularly as in Bengal. 
On application to the collector of Madura, or to any of the districts, there 
were stationed relays of bearers, and also of porters, who are paid through 
the government. 

990. Supposing an officer of government were to proceed from Calcutta 
to any distant part of the country, would he be enabled to get to the end of 
his journey without any expense ? — I am speaking at present of Madura ; I 
have not travelled in Bengal, except by water. 

991. Ini 



S6 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

s March IBSl. 991. la aoy other part of India?— A revenue o£Bcer would ; a revenue 

officer, travelling in his own district^ is enabled to travel without any expense ; 

"■ ''°'™''*> ^'?- a revenue officer, native or European, 

992- How is it when he gets out of his district? — Mr. Peter, in travelling 
to Cutallum, his servants, in entering the Tinnevellj district, were proceeding 
as in their own district, making seizures of supplies ; complaint was made to 
Mr. Bannerman, assistant or sub-collector in charge of that part of Tin> 
nevelly, who had the servants of Mr. Peter brought before him ; he repri- 
manded and forced them to pay for their supplies. 

993. Have you read the work published by Bishop Heber?— I have. 

994. Are not these abuses prominently referred to there? — They are. 
He paid extreme attention to prevent them ; but in the Madras territory, it 
is within my knowledge that he could not prevent them. 

995. You have not travelled in the presidency of Bengal ? — No, except 
from Bandel to the sea. 

MATTHEW GISBORNE, Esq. called in, and examined. 
M. <iii^rnt;Etq. 996. When did you 6r8t go out to India, bow long did you reside there, 
and when did you return to this country? — I left England for Java in the 
beginning of the year 1818, and resided in Java till the beginning of 18S1 j 
I then went up to Calcutta, and remained there till tlie end of 18S8. 

997> What was your occupation during your residence in India?— I was 
engaged in mercantile pursuits, as a merchant and agent. 

998. You have still a mercantile establishment there ? — I have at Calcutta. 

999. Did you see the early progress of the free trade between Great 
Britain and India? — Yes ; I had an opportunity of observing the progress of 
it from almost the commencement of the year 1818; I was personally 
engaged in it. 

10(X>. What was the result in Java with respect to the consumption of 
Brilish manufactures ? — There was a very extensive demand for British 
manufactures during the time I was in Java, both for cotton manufactures 
and for woollens and metals. 

1001. What kind of cottons? — For white piece goods and for printed piece 
goods. 

1002. W^hat returns are made from Java? — From Java the returns to 
this country at that time were made in coffee, and sugar, and rice, and 
occasionally funds were sent up from Java to Calcutta in tin, japan, copper, 
and spices. 

1C03. Did you travel in the interior of Java ?— Yes, I did. 

loot. What is your opinion of the relative condition of the peasantry of 
Bengal and Java ? — The peasantry of Java seemed to be in a better condition, 
as tUr as their external appearance went, in the wearing and consumption of 

manufactured 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 87 

manufactured goods ; they consumed a greater quantity and more expensive 3 
articles than the Bengalese generally. 

1005. What are the wages of a day-labourer in Java ?**-The wages are 
higher in Java than in Bengal. 

1006. How much ? — I believe nearly double. 

1007. What is the money in Java? — ^The Dutch money, Dutch coin j the 
silver money, guilders ; and the copper money, stivers and doits. 

1008. Is it at what is called par value?— That I cannot tell. 

1009. Does it contain the quantity of metal which it purports to contain, 
or is it not a depreciated coin ?— I believe the copper coin was very much 
depreciated } whether the silver was, I am not aware. 

1010. How would you then ascertain the relative prices of labour between 
Java and Bengal ? — I fix it by a reference to the exchange between England 
and the two countries. 

1011. Do you mean that the effective wages of labour are twice as great 
in Java as in Bengal ? — Yes, I believe they are. 

1012. Did you travel much in the interior of Bengal ?— -No, I did not 
travel much : I went one journey up to Cawnpore, about eight or nine hun^ 
dred miles from Calcutta. 

1013. Did you go by water or by land ? — I went up by dawk and returned 
by water. 

1014. Was the rate of travelling expensive? — I think that it was eight 
annas, about Is. a mile, that I paid the postmaster-general for laying the 
dawk for me for the bearers, and there was a small gratuity given to the 
bearers at the end of each stage. 

1015. Were your provisions furnished to you regularly and gratuitously? 
—No ; I had no provisions furnished gratuitously. 

1016. During your residence for seven years at Calcutta, did the com- 
mercial intercourse between this country and India increase ?— It increased 
very materially. 

1017* In what branches of commerce were you chiefly engaged ? — I was 
engaged in the sale of ail descriptions of European manufactures, and in the 
shipment of Indian produce to this country. 

1018. Will you name them ?— The sale of all kinds of cotton and woollen 
goods, and copper, lead, and iron, and spelter also to a considerable extent ; 
and there were glass and earthenware, and other manufactures suitable to 
Europeans, sent out in more limited quantities; and the returns were in 
sugar and rice, and indigo and cofifee (not rery much cofi^ from Calcutta), 
saltpetre^ cotton, and occasiomilly a little silk; but I did not do much 
ioadk. 

1019. Any lac dye .^— Yea ; I dipped cooaiderable quantities of it. 

1020. Did 




88 



EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDI A AFFAIRS : 



3 March 1881 . 



M. Guhomcj Eiq, 



1020. Did you ship pepper ?— -Occasionally ; but that goes more from the 
Coromandel and Malabar coast. 

1021. When did the first import of cotton-twist take place ? — In 1823 
there was a small quantity sent : IS^it was, I believe, the first year in which 
any material quantity was sent ; tliat was about 121,000 lbs. weight. 

1022. What was the amount of the import of cotton-twist in 1828 ? — ^About 
4,000,000 lbs. weight. 

1023. What were the numbers of the twist sent out to India ? — I have 
received all numbers, from very low ones, 12 and 14 and 16, up to No. 150; 
but the principal consumption is between Nos. 30 and 40. 

1024. What kind of cloth would be made from Nos. 30 and 40?«— The 
cloth it makes is similar to our shirting cloth. 

1025. The lower numbers are the coarsest, and the higher the finest ?«— 
Yes, just so. 

1026. Had any attempts been made to introduce cotton-twist for the ten 
years from 1814 to 1824 ? — Yes, repeated attempts had been made, but they 
had not been successful before that. 

1027. Why ? — I suppose from the price being too high for it to come 
within the means of the natives to purchase it. I should state also, that I 
saw a letter from Calcutta before I went there, stating that the English twist 
was quite unfitted for the native use. 

1028. In what year did you see that return ?— I believe in the year 1818 ; 
but a few years afterwards, when the price had materially fallen, it began to 
be introduced, and has been since so much more extensively introduced, that / 
there appears to be no foundation for that opinion. 

1029* Was the fall in the price of cotton-twist in this country the reason 
it was more introduced into India ?— I apprehend so. 

1030. Who are the purchasers of cotton-twist ; what description of persons 
in India ? — ^We sell to the native merchants, who purchase all kinds of cotton 
goods of us. 

1031. Do they sell them to the native manufacturers? — Yes. 

1032. Is there any machinery made use of, except that to which the natives 
have been accustomed ? — No ; I believe no European machinery at all. 

1033. Is there any improvement of the native machinery you have heard 
of? — I am not aware of any ; I have no opportunity of judging. 

1034. If the East-India Company had continued to enjoy the monopoly 
they did previous to 1814, are you of opinion that the same quantity of 
cotton-twist would have been imported as has been imported under the pre- 
sent circumstances ? — I should think not. 

1035. Have you had any complaints from the natives of the quality of the 
goods made from British twist? — Yes; I have heard of very considerable 

complaints 




SELECT ^COMMITTEE of Ttre HOUSE GfF COMMONS. 

compliiints tfein^tnade by the natives, that thtf goods tpade from British 
twist were not so durable as their own, ' *^ • . , u 

109B. "What dp you consider to be the caase of that ?--iBecau86 the t#ist 
settt oM Ha^'. Heeh i^rincipally of an inferior quality : some parcels ttff^ 
superior ^tialtty have been sent out, but they would not bring in Beng^ a 
pncfaT propctrtibaed to their increased cost here* I believe tiiat the t^ist 
which has been sent out has been what is called weft twist principally^ and I 
b^liev^ bas^ been Hised by them for warp as well as weft. 

IOS7. It requires a superior quality of twist ?— -Yes, for warp. 

1098. Has the importation of British cotton manufactures interfered 
mdterially witli the same branch of Indian manufacture ?— It must have 
interfered to a certain extent ; but the whole quantity of English cotton 
goods s^nt to that country is so small, compared to the consumption of the 
population, that I should suppose it cannot have very materially interfered. 

10d9. Has not the importation of British cotton-twist into India con- 
tributed io some measure to counterbalance the disadvantages of the impor* 
tation of cotton cloth ? — The cotton-twist sent out must, of course, have 
furnished employment for the Indian weavers. 

104<0* Has it interfered with the coarser Indian goods ?^— No, I believe not 
at all, 69arcely, 

1041. Has not the present price of cotton manufactures in many countries 
in Europe,, and in tlie United States of America, contributed to the falling 
off of the manufacture of Indian cottons? — Yes, it must have materially 
contributed to it, as Indian cotton goods used to be shipped in large quanti- 
ties to the ports of Europe, and to South America, where they have. now 
nearly l^een superseded by the manufactures of this country, and of otiier 
countries. 

104^ Has much distress been produced to the Indian weavers by the 
import of British cottons ? — I have not been in the way of hearing of much } 
it must have produced partial distress at the time, no doubt 

1043. Were you ever in the district of Dacca ? — No, I never was. 

1014. Have you not heard that distress, to a very great extent, prevailed 
in Dactfa among the weavers for a very long time ?•— No, I was not aware of 

that. 

1045.' Are the Indian weavers employed in other trades, as fishermen, and 
so on ? — I understand they are, both as agriculturists, and fishermen on the 
partu of the river and the coast. 

1046^/ They do not confine themselves to weaving cotton, as persons do in 
this coiih Cry ? — So I understand. 

1047. In what commodities did you make your returns from India .^— In 
cotton, saltpetre, rice, sugar, indigo, silk, and sometimes in some cofiee, a 
little pepper and lac dye, and shell lac. 

N 1048. Had 



i) 



90 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS : 

3 March 1831. 1048. Had the exports of raw cotton from Bengal to Europe increased or 
tf GMorne E ^^^^^^^^^ during your stay ? — During the time of my stay they had rather 
' ^' increased, but previously they had been much larger. 

1049. In what manner is cotton cultivated and brought into the market of 
Calcutta ; have Europeans any share in the culture of it ?— No ; I believe 
that is entirely carried on by natives. The Europeans who deal in it have 
merely the collection of it, and perhaps the further cleaning of it afler it 
comes into their possession, and the packing of it for export. 

1050. Could cotton be exported from India to this country unless it was 
screwed and packed by English machinery ? — ^No, it could not be sent uqless 
it was compressed to a much smaller compass than it is in at the time of the 
purchase. 

1051. Is that done by an hydraulic press ? — It is by a screw-press. They 
have hydraulic presses at Bombay, I understand, but they have not at 
Calcutta. 

1052. What is the quality of Bengal cotton compared with American ? — It 
is much inferior to the lowest kind of American. 

1053. In what respect ? — In shortness of staple, and being so much more 
dirty than American cotton is. 

1054. Have those defects been remedied at all within the last few years ? 
—No, they have not been remedied in the culture : the dirtiness of it has 
been partially remedied by great care in the selection, when Europeans have 
purchased it. 

1055. Do you know of any attempt by an European to cultivate cotton ? 
— I never knew of any extensive attempt. A friend of mine, who resided 
at Benares, got a few seeds, I believe, of Brazil cotton, and cultivated them 
in his garden there for two or three successive years, and produced three 
bales of cotton at last, which he sent down to Calcutta for shipment for 
England. I was to have shipped them to Liverpool, but they arrived too 
late for the vessel I had, and they were sent to London, where he informed 
me that they sold for a shilling a pound, at the time that Indian cotton gene- 
rally was between four-pence and five-pence. 

1056. Has the quantity of sugar increased or decreased ?— The quantity 
of sugar has rather increased. 

1057* What causes have prevented its greater increase ?— Its quality is so 
inferior, generally, to West-India sugar, that it cannot be brought into com* 
petition extensively with that. 

1058. Why ? — Because the grain is inferior ; it is so imperfectly manufac- 
tured ; the grain of it is so much less ; it is so much less perfectly freed from 
impurities in the manufacture. 

1059. Is it naturally inferior owing to the climate, or only from the defect 
of the manufacture ? — I am told that the sugar-cane is as good in Bengal as 

in 



SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 91 

in the West-Iodies, and I have seen some sugar produced much superior in 
quality to that generally sent. 

1060. By whom produced ?«^By the natives in the district of Burdwan. I 
have occasionally bought a small quantity of it, and sent it home ; but it was 
generally at a cost too high to make it a profitiUile remittance. 

1061. What was the cause of that being so much better ? — It was because 
it had undergone an additional process : they called it twice-boiled sugar, but 
what the exact process it went through was I do not know. The grain was 
much lai^er and much better than that of common Bengal sugar. 

1069. Did you hear that there was a great loss sustained by twice boiling 
it ? — I only infer that from the increased cost of it. 

1063. What is the quality of Bengal sugar, compared with the sugar of 
China and Siam ?— It is very considerably inferior to the sugar of China and 
Siam. 

1064. Is that on account of the manufacture being better in China ?— -The 
Chinese are much more skilful in the manufacture of sugar than the Ben- 
galese are. 

1065. Do the Chinese manufacture the sugar in Siam ? — I do not know 
that ; they manufacture the sugar in Java principally. 

1066. Has the exportation of rice from Bengal increased lately ?— Very 
much so indeed within the last three or four years ; principally, I believe, 
owing to the invention of some machinery for freeing it from the busk after 
it arrives in this country. It used to arrive with a great deal of dust, and a 
great deal broken in the grain, and much inferior in colour to the American 
rice ; whereas now, I believe, by coming in the husk, it arrives with the 
grains unbroken, and it can be freed in this country so as to look fresh and 
bright, as the American rice has done. There has also been a reduction of 
duty, which has tended to reduce the price of it 

1067. Supposing the rice had been cleaned in India as it is in Carolina, 
would it have come in in greater quantities? — If it could be cleaned in 
India as it is in Carolina, so as to be brought clean home, no doubt it 
would be taken in greater quantities. 

1068. What is the duty upon rice now? — I do not know precisely, but 
there has been a considerable reduction of the duty ; and the export from 
Calcutta to this country has been, I believe, five times as much in the last 
three or four years as it was in the previous three or four. 

1069. Is the machinery for cleaning it of modem invention?— Yes; and 
I believe is confined to few parties in this country, who have mills for that 
purpose. 

1070. Was it broken by being cleaned in India? — ^Yes, and, in conse- 
quence, of less value, for they had to clean it from the dust Md partfdes 
before they could sell it v 

N« 1 



GisbOf-ne, Esq. 



92 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

March 1831. 1071* Does indigo form a staple article of return from Calcutta to 

Europe ? — It does. 

1072. Wiien was it first imported into this country to any extent ? — I 
believe it commenced from India about forty years ago, from what I have 
seen stated upon the subject ; but it has now so greatly increased in extent 
as almost to have superseded all other indigos. 

1073. Do you recollect what it was in 1813 or 1814, as compared with 
what it is now ? — I do not think 1 can state that with any accuracy. 

1074. Have you imported much lac dye ? — A considerable quantity. 

1075. How was lac dye discovered ? — It was discovered by some Euro- 
peans who were in the interior of the country in India. 

1076. What is stick lac ? — Stick lac is the gum, with the insect or egg 
of the insect in it, from which the lac dye is made. The insect forms a 
gum on the tree, and deposits its eggs in it, and it is collected by the per- 
sons who manufacture it from the trees, and the dyeing particles separated 
from the gummy particles, and the gum is made into shell lac. 

1077- Can you describe shortly how it is separated ? — I cannot. 

1078. The discovery of the easy process of separating the lac dye from 
the stick lac was made in 1814 or 1815, was it not? — I believe it was. It 
is a process not very difficult, as it has been very extensively practised both 
by Armenians and others. 

1079. For what is lac dye chiefly fit ? — In the dyeing, I believe, of scarlet 
cloths. 

1080. What article has it superseded in the dyeing of scarlet ? — I sup- 
pose it is used where cochineal would have been used ; but it is not adapted, 
I believe, for the very finest dyes. 

1081. Has it affected the price of cochineal? — I believe lac dye and 
cochineal have both acted on each other. The price of cochineal has fallen 
to about one-fourth of what it was ten or twelve years ago, but the imports 
have materially increased, which may have tended to its decline. 

1082. What quantity of cochineal is imported from Bengal ? — ^None 
from Bengal. 

1083. There is a small quantity of cochineal in Bengal, is there not? — 
I have not seen it there. I understand that the insect is there, but I have 
not seen any of it there. 

1084. What do you consider to be the principal obstacles to the exten- 
sion of commercial intercourse between Great Britain and India ?^The 
want of returns more suited to the markets of Great Britain ; the bad qua- 
lity, generally, of the products of India. 

1085. By what means could the quality of those returns be improved and 
their quantity increased ? — I suppose that if the cultivation of them got 

more 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS- 98 

more entensively ioto the hands of Europeans, they would be very mate- 
rially improved. 

10S6. Why?— >*The experiment I have mentioned in cotton shows tliat 
one article could be materially improved ; and no doubt sugar, if tbe^ 
were European machinery used in the manufacture of it, might be mate- 
rially improved also. 

1087* Could the quantity of indigo be much increased r — The Quantity 
of indigo could be increased, no doubt ; but at present the quantity sup- 
plied seems to be as much as is required in Europe. 

1088. Do you conceive that the free trade in India has been profitably 
or unprofitably conducted during the twelve years you have been engaged 
in it? — There have been considerable fluctuations; but I consider that 
upon the whole it must have been a profitable trade, from the immense 
increase that has taken place. 

1089* How has it been to your own house? — It was profitable, so far 
as I was concerned in it. 

1090. What is the opinion entertained by the mercantile community of 
Calcutta of the character of the East-India Company and its commercial 
acts, when they act as merchants ? — I suppose it is generally thought that 
it is impossible for a large company and government together to act well 
as merchants. 

109K You proceeded first to Java in 1818 ; had you previously obtained 
a license from the East- India Company, the Board of Control, or the go- 
vernment of the Netherlands ?-^I did not obtain any license at all to go 
to Java ; it was under the Dutch government, and therefore I required no 
license from the East-India Company. 

1092« On your arrival in Java, was there any license demanded, or any 
questions asked of you ? — No license was demanded : I had to appear at 
tne police office and announce my arrival, and mention where I was residing. 

1093. When you proceeded into the interior, had you to provide your- 
self with a passport r— Yes ; I had to apply for the permission of the govern- 
ment to proceed into the interior. 

1094>. Would a Dutch subject have had to make the same application for 
a passport ? — I rather think he would. 

109^* During your progress through the interior, were you detained or 
delayed in any way by the inspection of your passport ?— -Not materially : 
I was occasionally called upon to produce it. 

1096. Did you sufier any incovenience from that ?— Nothing beyond a 
few minutes delay in places where I had to produce it; not more than a 
quarter of an hour. 

1097* On your arrival from Java at Calcutta, was any demand made upon 
you there for a license or passport?— No. 

1098. Did 



d4 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

3 March 1831. 1098. Did you apply for h afterwards ?— I wrote home to England to 

. have a license obtained for me, because I knew it was contrary to the regu- 

Jtf. GisbamejEsq. lotions of the Company that a person should reside there without one; and 

I thought I might get into di6Sculty, possibly, unless I had one* 
1099. Did you get one ?— I did. 
IICX). What did you pay for it? — Fifteen guineas, I think. 

1101. How long after you had been in India did you apply for that 
license ?— I wrote home immediately after my arrival in Bengal for one. 

1102. You met with no obstruction, either at that time or any other? — I 
met with no obstruction in getting that one. I subsequently had to apply 
for a license for a young man who was in Calcutta at the time, and came 
to be an assistant in my office, and the parties to whom I wrote in this 
country to procure the license, wrote out to me that the license had been 
refused, on the ground that no sufficient reasons were specified for his resi- 
dence in India. I believe the application had been made for him as being 
there, without stating any reason for his residence there. I subsequently 
made an application for him to reside there as an assistant in my office, and 
the license was obtained. 

1103. From whom did you obtain the license? — From the Directors. 

1104. What did you pay for it ? — I am not quite sure that I am correct, 
but I think about ten guineas. 

110^, What was the nature of your own license ? — I do not remember the 
nature of it, beyond its giving me permission to remain there as long as I 
complied with the laws of the country and conducted my self pr operly • 

1106. How came your license to differ from his in the price of it?«^I 
cannot tell, unless there may be a difference made in respect of a person 
going out as principal and as assistant ; but I am not quite clear as to the 
sum paid. 

! 1107. Do you know whether the license was obtained from the Board of 
Control or the East-India Directors ? — I believe from the EastJndia 
Directors. 

1108. Was the refusal in the first instance to grant the licenses to your 
assistant made by the East- India Directors or by the Board of Control ? — By 
the East-India Directors. 

1109* The license for your assistant was obtained on your statement that 
you would give him employment ? — ^Yes. 

1110. It is probable, in the first instance, it was refused because there was 
not that statement ?— I presume it was. 

1111. Do not you know that it is very material that an European, land* 
ing in India, should find employment as quickly as possible ?— It- cer- 
tainly is. 

1112. The 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 95 

1119. The efiect of want of employment is perhaps more injurious in that 
country than in any other?— I think it is, as far as I have bad an oppor- 
tunity of judging. 

1113. Have you, since your return to England, applied for licenses for 
other persons ? — Yes, I have, in several instances. Last year I had to apply 
for licenses for two ladies who were going out to India, one of them a mar- 
ried lady with two children, the other a single lady ; in the first instance, 
there were some difficulties thrown in the way of my obtaining them. The 
married lady was the wife of an officer in the Company's service in Bengal ; 
but when I applied at the India-House for the license, I was told that I must 
produce a letter from her husband, stating that he wanted to have her. 

1114. What sums were demanded for these licenses? — I think at first I 
was told I siiould have to pay, if the license was obtained, £7 or seven 
guineas for each individual of the parties; but when this objection was made, 
and I was required to produce a letter from the husband, 1 happened in the 
mean time to learn from a friend that both the ladies were born in India, 
though of European parents, and I applied for them as born in India, and 
the licenses were given on the payment, 1 think, of £2 each person. 

1115. Then you did not give any securities ? — I had no securities to give, 
as they were born in India, and returning to their friends. 

1116. Does not a very large proportion of the money paid go to cover the 
stamp on the bond ?^I really do not know ; but very probably it does. 

1117* Have you, in other instances of application, had to enter into 
securities ? — Yes, I had to enter into securities for two persons for whom I 
obtained licenses ; two securities, of £500 each, for each party. 

1118. For what were the securities taken ?— For their good behaviour in 
India, and that they should not become burdensome to the Company. 

1119. During your residence in Calcutta, did you know of any instances 
of any who were burdensome to the Company ? — No, I did not. 

1120. Have you not heard of persons being sent home at the Company's 
expense? — I do not recollect any instances of their being sent home at the 
Company's expense : I have heard that they might have been sent home, if 
found without license, and unemployed, as charter-party passengers. There 
were two instances, I believe, when I was in Calcutta, of persons being sent 
home by the government ; whether at government expense, I do not know. 
Mr. Buckingham and another person, Mr. Arnott, I think, was his name. 

1121. When a vessel goes to India, is it necessary to have a license ? — 
Yes, it is. 

1122. What is paid for that license ? — That I do not know. 

1123. When you proceeded to the upper provinces, were you obliged to 
fiimish yourself with a passport ?— No, I was not obliged ; I merely applied 
to the postmaster of Calcutta to Uy a ddk for me through the country, and it 

was 






96 EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS: 

SMarcli, IS31., was done: but I have frequently seen notiiicatioiis in the Calcutta govern- 
, . „ . ~ — ,. nient gazette, that peraons should furnish themselves with passports. 

M.ftltOOnW, r.M. __ , , , ._ , , 

11S4. Have you in any instance known those notifications attended to?-— 
I have never known an instance of a person having a passport ; I have never 
heard of one. 

11^. Did you suffer any inconvenience from not having a passport during 
your journey ? — Not at all. 

1126. Do you know of any of your friends sufering inconvenience from 
going on such journies without passports ? — Not at all. 

1 IS7. Then the notification appears to be a dead letter ? — As far as I have 
known, it was. 

1 128. Had you your license about you ? — No. 

1129- And you were not asked for it P— No ; but I was mostly known to 
the Company's civil servants whom I saw in travelling up the country. 

1130. In travelling by palanquin were you supplied with provision ? — We 
had whatever provisions we wanted in the palanquin ; my provisions consisted 
principally of dry biscuit. 

1131. Did you not require provisions in the villages you passed? — What- 
ever provisions I wanted beyond those I had, were obtained at the different 
European stations, from friends with whom I stopped. 

1132. Is it not usual, in travelling in India, to obtain an order to have 
provisions in the way at certain places? — I am not aware of it in Bengal. 

1133. — You have read the works of Bishop Heber? — Yes; he adverts to 
such a practice, principally in the Madras districts. 

1134. In what part of the Bengal territory is the cotton sold in Calcutta 
grown? — Several hundred miles up the country. 

1135. Is it in the hilly district, or alluvial soil? — I do not apprehend it 
can be in the hilly district. 

1136. You state that the staple is very.short ; is that owing to the sort of 
cotton cultivated, or the mode of cultivation ? — I believe that both are defec- 
tive; but that the improvement particularly wanted is the introduction of 
different seed, and a more frequent changing of the seed, as well as much 
greater attention to the cultivation of it. 

1137. With respect to the cotton-twist which you state to be exported 
from this country to India, are many of the very highest numbers exported ? 
— None of the very highest, I believe. I did receive as high as 150 ; I have 
heard of as high a number as 200 exported, but in very small quantities. 

1 138. Up to what number do they carry it ? — I cannot say. 

1 139. Where is the twist principally woven into cloth, after its arrival in 
India?— I believe it has never been introduced successfully farther than one 
or two hundred miles from Calcutta. 

1140. Is 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 97 

1 140. Is the cloth made from that twist worn generally by the lowest class 
of natives, or by what description ? — No, not bv the lowest class ; the lower 
class wear a heavier sort of cloth, in which we have not at all interfered with 
them in the manufacture* 

1141. Is it by the highest class, or the middling order ?«-By the middling 
order, and I should think rather by the higher classes. 

1 1 42. Is it worked up in the same looms that their own twist used to be 
worked up in ? — ^Yes ; they have no European machinery. 

1143. No improvement has taken place in their machinery of late years? 
— Not that I am aware of; but I am not acquainted with their machinery. 

1144. Have you seen the machinery for making sugar? — I believe I have 
seen a sugar-mill, and I have heard one described. 

1145. Is it not one of a very inferior description ? — Of the lowest descrip- 
tion possible ; merely a kind of wooden, hollow cylinder to receive the cane, 
with a large post in the middle of it, which is pulled round by a bullock, and 
squeezes out the juice. 

1146. You have stated that the general opinion in Calcutta is, that the 
Company do not carry on their mercantile transactions with any very great 
advantage, either to themselves or otliers ?— I believe tliat is the general 
opinion. 

1147. Will you state the grounds of that opinion? — Principally because it 
was found that the prices of all commodities in which they interfered were 
driven up to rates which made them unprofitable to those who had to deal in 
them, and their monopolies in some branches of trade altogether put an end 
to the dealings of private merchants. 

1148. To what branches do you advert ? — The export to England in silk, 
which is almost altogether in the hands of the Company. 

1149. Is there any other in which they possess a monopoly ?— They have 
a monopoly of opium, which is exported to China : they have the salt 
monopoly. 

1150. Do you know whether the commercial residents of the Company 
act as agents for any other parties except the Company ? — I believe they have 
been occasionally employed by other parties to act as agents. 

1151. Do you know at all the commission they charge for acting? — I do 
not 

1152. You have stated the Chinese and Siamese sugars to be superior to 
the Bengal ; do the Chinese and Siamese sugars find their way to this country? 
— I do not know whether they would be admitted into this country. 

1153. If you were allowed to export the raw products of India to China, 
would that facilitate your payment for the goods imported from England into 
India ? — ^That must most materially facilitate it, for it would open to us all 
the products of China as a means of remittance to this country. 

O 1154. Are 



98 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS : 

3 March 1831. 1154. Are you of opinion that the trade of India might be considerably 
r increased by throwing open the China trade to the merchants of England 

Ai. in$borne, Ksq. generally ?— I am undoubtedly of that opinion. 

1155. Will you state the grounds on which you found that opinion?— ilf 
the China trade to this country was opened to the merchants of Englaml 
generally, we should have the means, as opportunity offered, of shipping the 
produce of Bengal to China, which is extensively done now, both in cotton, 
saltpetre, and opium, and having the proceeds of those things reinvested in 
tea, or silk, or nankeens, and other articles in China, for shipment to this 
country. 

1156. In the present trade from India to China, is there any amount of 
returns in silver ? — I believe as much as from S,000,0(X) to 4,000,000 dollars 
is annually remitted back in silver to India from China. 

1157. Might not the same ship which is engaged in carrying out British 
manufactures to India, also be engaged in the trade from India to China, and 
afterwards from China to England, supposing a free trade established ? — 
Certainly, if the trade was free. 

1158. At the same time that there is an exportation of silver from China 
to India, is there not an import of silver into China yearly ? — There is yearly 
a very considerable import of silver into China. 

1159. Can you state the extent of it?— I cannot; but the Americans, I 
believe, import silver largely into China, to pay for the cargoes they take from 
China. 

1160. Are not the Indian cotton manufactures softer and more durable 
than the English ? — They are more durable, and perhaps their muslins may be 
of a softer texture. 

llGl. Does that not proceed from their being spun with the hand instead 
of machinery ? — I think it probably does. 

11 02. Are you aware of the process of spinning the cotton thread of the 
finer qualities in India ?— No ; except by having heard that the very finest of 
all is spun under water. 

1163. Is not the spinning of cotton thread the chief employment of the 
women ? — I believe it is. 

11G4. Has stick lac not been in use in India from time immemorial among 
the natives as a dye ? — Not as a dye ; I should think the lac has been used 
very much as a varnish. 

1165. Is it imported from Pegu? — I have known very fine stick lac 
imported from Pegu into Calcutta. 

llG6. Was not stick lac previously imported in its original state from Pegu 
and other parts of India into Great Britain ? — I do not know as to Pegu ; 
but from British India it was in considerable quantities. After I had been 

in 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 99 

in India several years, I had a quantity of stick lac sent back to me for sale 
in India which had come from India several years before. 

1167. It is a much more bulky commodity in stick lac ?«^ Yes, much more 
so than the dye. 

1168. Are not the natives very much wedded to their own machinery in 
agriculture as well as in manufactures? — Yes, I believe they are. 

1169. Are you aware of frequent attempts having been made to introduce 
English machinery unsuccessfully, in agriculture particularly ? — I have not 
been myself cognizant of any attempts which have been made in either the 
one or the other. 

1170. After the Europeans introduced the improved process of indigo 
manufacture, have you known the natives imitate it ? — Oh yes. The natives 
make indigo upon the European plan, but still very inferior to that made by 
the Europeans, because they do not take anything like the same care in the 
process : they do not take care that the water is clean in which the plant is 
steeped ; they have it mixed with sand and dirt, which is a most material 
injury to the quality ; and they do not pay the requisite attention to the 
proper times of steeping, and ot beating and boiling, on which the quality 
materially depends, so that the native indigo is always very inferior to that 
made by Europeans 

1171. As far as their prejudices are concerned, they have shown no objec« 
tion to adopting the European system ? — Not at all. 

1 172. You stated that you did not conceive the importation of British 
manufactures would materially interfere with those of the natives of India ? — 
I have said I did not conceive that they had materially interfered. 

1173. Are you aware what the importation was in India previous to 1814, 
and what it is now ?•— In the year 1815, the importation into the countries to 
the east of the Cape of Good Hope, of British white and printed goods, was 
about 800,000 yards, and in the year 1830, I think it was about 45,000,000 
yards. 

1174. You do not conceive that that materially interferes with those 
manufactured by the natives of India ? — It must interfere to some extent, 
but still I think the quantity sent is very immaterial in comparison with the 
whole consumption of the country. I would mention one circumstance with 
regard to the importations of goods into India : the British manufacture, of 
course, interferes with the native goods ; but the 4,000,000 pounds weight 
of twist which have been sent out to India would, I suppose, make half as 
many yards of cotton goods as all that we have importea into India within 
the fast year. 

1175. Then they have been deprived of the spinning of that ?—^They have 
been. 

1176. Are you not of opinion that the use of ] 

02 



100 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

'3 March 1831. be very greatly extended, if greater facilities were afforded for the returns to 

this country ? — I certainly think so. 

M.Gisbome,Esq. ^^rjj^ g^ lowering the duty on sugar and various other articles ?— All 

lowering of duties, no doubt, would tend to that effect : but what is prin- 
cipally wanted is the improvement of the quality of the articles, the improve- 
ment of sugar and of cotton. 

1178. Do you conceive that can be effected by any other means than the 
employment of European skill and capital in India? — 1 do not. 

1 179* Are you not aware that the Company have made many attempts, 
unsuccessfully, to improve the manufacture of sugar ? — I have heard that the 
Company have made many attempts unsuccessfully. 

1180. Have you ever seen a paper printed at the India-House upon that 
subject some years ago ? — I have not ; but the Company had been also 
unsuccessful in the introduction of British manufactures mto India, till it 
was opened to the free trader. 

1 181. Are you not aware that the Company have made very considerable 
remittances to this country in specie of late years ? — I believe they have. 

1 182. Have not the private merchants occasionally resorted to that means ? 
^-I believe it has been once or twice resorted to, but not at all extensively, 
I conceive. 

1183. You refer to Calcutta ? — I do. 

1184. Supposing the manufacturing interests of India to suffer by an 
import of British manufacture into that country, would not the agricultural 
interests of India be compensated to an equal degree by the necessity of our 
purchasing their articles in payment for the goods so imported ? — I think 
they would be more than compensated. 

1185. What duties do the British manufactures pay on importation into 
Calcutta ? — Two and a half per cent. 

1186. Are you aware of the duty paid on the impoi1;ation of Indian 
manufactures here ? — It is very high. 

1187. It is very high on silk ? — Yes. 

1188. On pepper it is 1^. a pound ?— Yes. 

1189- That is 300 per cent, on the prime cost?— Yes. 

1190. Supposing the whole of those duties repealed, do ^ou imagine there 
would be a considerable import of Indian manufactures into England ? — I 
should think not very considerable. 

1 191. Supposing the ten per cent were given as a bonus, instead of being 
paid as a duty, do you then think there would be a large import ? — The 
import would be increased, no doubt ; but I think the British manufactures 
would still drive out the Indian manufactures. 

1192. When did you leave India?— In 1828. 

1193. At 



SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 101 

1193. At what rate of interest were the Compfiny borrowing money then ? 
-^At five and six per cent 

1194>. Have you heard the rate at which they have been borrowing money 
during the last twelve months ; whether it exceeds that ? — I do not believe 
it exceeds that, but I am not quite sure. 

1195. Are they not in the habit of issuing treasury bills at five per cent, 
in payment for their investment ? — There are treasury notes, called Com* 
pany's paper, in Calcutta, at five per cent 

1196. They pass as cash ?— They do^ deducting the interest 

1197* Those are issued at various times, without any restriction ?— -I 
believe so. 

1198. They answer all the purposes, in Calcutta, of cash to the Company ? 
—They do. 



7 17 1 tj lm:. 



LuniBy 7^ die Marlii, 1831. 



The Hon. 6. M. Fortescub in the Chair. 



PETER GORDON, Esq. again called in, and examined. 

1199« Have you some papers which you wish to give in ? — This is a table 
containing the neirick prices, and the actual market prices of several articles. 

1300. Will you explain the meaning of the word neirick ? — ^The same as 
tariff; a book of rates. 

1201. By whom are those prices generally fixed ?-— The neirick prices are 
fixed by the officers of government, the revenue police. Both these tables 
of prices were furnished to me by a native ; I believe he was the vakeel of a 
talook to the courts of the judge and of the collector, an agent of the talook 
attending at the cutcherries of the judge, and of the collector doing the 
business for the talook. 

1202. Do those prices relate to the zillah of Madura ? — Yes. 

120S. Do the market prices and the neirick prices vary considerably ?— 
They do. 

1204>. Will you mention one or two instances?— Grass, four bundles, one 
coily fanam. 

1205. What would be the market price ?— -Half a coily fanam. 

1206. Then 



102 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



7 March 1831. 1S06. Then the market price is less than the neinck price? — It is in that 
~- instance. Sheep, the first sort, one rupee two anas eight pice, the oeirick- 

GonnW) -Efy. ^^\^.Q . jjjg noarijet price one rupee twelve anas. 

[The Table was delivered in and read asfolUms:'] 



Sheep 

Ditto 

Ditto 

Fowls 

Fowls' Eggs . . . 

Grass 

Ditto 3 cubiu 1 
round .... J 

Firewood 

Coolies 

Challies 

Pans 

Fowls 

EgB* ■" 

Gmss 

Firewood 



third sort 

second 

first . 

table. 

third. 

second 

first . 



each, 
each. 
each. 



eodi. 

each, 
each . 
each. 



8 bundles 
ditto mills 
each. . 
each. . 



ttrdsk. 



i 

O 3 

o 4 



Uuliet Fficei, Aetml. 



each . 
each . 
each . 
each . 
10 mills 
each . 
each . 
each . 
each . 
each '. 
each . 
each . 
each . 
each . 



3* 



1307. Is there anything further you wish to state on this subject ? — No; 
but the book before cne contains a reference to some of the circumstances to 
wliicU I have spoken relative to purveyance and other subjects. It is a note- 
book, commencing Ist January 1838. 



JAMES RITCHIE. Esq. called in and examined. 

J. Ritchie, Etq. 1-^08. You are a partner in the house of Ritchie, Finlay, and Co., of 
Bombay? — lam. 

1309. When did you first go to India, how long did you reside there, and 
when did you return? — I went to India in 1816, and with the exception of 
two short trips to this country, and occasional visits to the interior, I resided' 
there till last year. 

1310. In what part of India have you principally resided, and what other 
parts of it have you visited? — 1 have resided principally in Bombay; I huve 

visited 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 103 

visited Malabar, and the countries between Malabar and Madras, and Calcutta ; 
I also visited Giizerat and our own provinces. 

1311. During your whole residence in India, were you employed in com- 
nuercial hfftutt ? — I was. 

im. During your residence in Bombay, with what ports or countries did 
you carry on commercial inierconrse : — With almost all the ports in the 
Company's limits, with Persia and with China, and also with the Cape of 
Good Hope. 

1313. How many considerable European mercantile estabtisliments are 
there at Bombay ?-^There are probably ten or twelve, I think, now : they 
have been increasing latterly. 

1314. How many were there when you first went out? — Our house was 
the fifth. 

1215. They had increased from four or five to twelve since 1816?— Yes. 

1216. Were the four or five old-established houses ? — ^Yes, they were. 
1317* How many native houses of business are there in Bombay carrying 

on foreign trade ? — A very great number, I cannot speak with any certainty. 

1318. Of what class do the native merchants consist? — Parsees, Hindoos, 
and Mussulmen. 

1219> Is it not occasionally the custom for some of the mercantile estabtish- 
menis to have a native partner ? — I believe not. I never knew of any native 
partner in any principal European establishment ; but there are often native 
partners in particular speculations in principal houses. 

1220. What parties do you commonly use as brokers ?^I believe the Par- 
sees are the most numerous of the castes employed as brokers. 

1221. What estimate have you formed of the relative general intelligence 
and commercial capacity of the different classes uf native merchants? — I think 
the Parsees are the most intelligent. 

1222. As compared with the Banians or Hindoo merchants of Calcutta? 
—I have not had much opportunity of forming an opinion upon that subject, 
but I think they are more intelligent tl^an any of the Calcutta castes, natives. 

1333. Describe to the Committee what the Parsees are ? — ^They are the 
fire- worshippers who came over from Persia on the first irruption of the 
Mohariunedans into that country ; they are the remains of the original inha* 
bitants of Persia, who then fled to India. 

1334. Are they numerous ? — They are very numerous. 

1225. Are they for the most part free from the prejudices of caste, and 
other antipathies which btflong to the Hindoo cliaracter ?— -Yes, they are. 

H'i6. Do the native merchants of Bombay ever embark as supercargoes 
to foreijin wuntnes ; and if so, to what countries ?— They do very frequently, 
pnncipujly to China. 

If*** Are those chiefly Parsees? — Chiefly the Parsees. 
; 1228. Has 



■1. RiOMe, Etq. 



1(H EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

1 March 18S1. 12S8. Has the commercial iatercourse between Bombay and the United 
Kingdom increased, or otherwise, since the opening of the trade to this 
country ? — It has increased very considerably, I think. 

12S9- What are at present the principal staple articles of import from 
Great Britain into Bombay ? — Metals of all descriptions, woollens, cottons, 
and cotton-yarn. 

1230. On your first arrival at Bombay in the year 1816, was the couBump- 
tion of British cotton fabrics then considerable ? — It was very trifling. 

1^1. What number of Indian merchants in the habit of dealing in British 
piece goods, were there in the bazaar of Bombay, when you arrived at that 
place in 1816 ? — Only one. I understand that question to refer to a retailer 
from the importer. 

1232. Had you much difficulty in disposing of your early investments? 
—Yes, we had, and principally from that circumstance. 

1233. By what means, or owing to what causes, has the consumption since 
become so considerable ? — I think the great cheapness is the principal cause 
of the increase of consumption, the very low price at whidi we oan now 
afford them from this country. 

1S34-. Is it in any respect owing to the pains which have been taken to 
adapt them to the wants of a particular consumption? — Certainly, to some 
extent : we make the goods now exactly to imitate the nativ& goods. 

1S35. Were you witness to the first importation of British cottOD-yun into 
Bombay ? — ^Yes, our house were the first importers. 

1236. When did that take place? — I think it must have been in 1819 or 
1820. 

1237. Can you inform the Committee in any one year what have been the 
exports from Great Britain to Bombay, of British cotton piece goods ?— 
I have the account of them, both to Calcutta and Bombay, for the years 
1829 and 1830. 

[The Witness delivered m the same, which was read^ asfoikms ;] 

COTTONS: 

Exports of Goods and Yarn to Calcutta, in 1829 and 1830. 





Y*rda Plain uid 
Coloured CotloiM. 


Tarda FlinU. 


FoimdaofYani. 


t. 


1829 


13,354,984 
14,905,685 


2,599,8?6 
3,441.110 


1,912,066 
3,774,799 


655,462 






IiKmiM 


1,550,?01 


841,234 


1«2,733 


£143,294 




SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 105 

Exports to Bombay. 





Tirdf PUin and 
Coloufed Cottons. 


Tirdf Prints. 


Pounds of Tarn. 


«• 




X. 


1829 

1830 


12.795,321 
17,005,333 


4,304,439 
4,151,119 


734.479 
4%,200 


570,626 
618,174 


Increase 


4,210,012 


^^,_ 


^^^^ 


£47,548 


Decrease 


— 


153,320 


238,279 






1288. Are British and other European metals imported into Bombay and 
Calcutu ? — Very largely, every ship almost is ballasted with them. 

1 Z3\). When was the article of spelter first imported into Bombay ? — I 
think in 1822. 

1240. How was Bombay supplied with spelter before that? — From China, 
with tutenague, a description of spelter ; it is rather a finer description of 
the same article. 

1241. The effect of the importations of spelter has been to drive the China 
tutenague out of the market, has it not? — Entirely, on our side of India. 

1242. In what part of the British territories or neighbouring countries are 
the British and European manufactures imported into Bombay principally 
consumed ?— They are principally consumed at the presidency, at Surat and 
other large towns within our own territories : a considerable quantity has 
latterly gone to Maiwa« 

1243. Are they carried up the country ? — Yes, a very considerable quantity 
has gone latterly. We have a considerable export to Persia and other places 
on the Red Sea, and the Arabian Gulf. 

1244. Are they sent to Malwa in return for opium ? — ^They are principally, 
that was the origin of the trade. 

1245. You returned from England to India in 182S, by the route of Georgia 
and Persia, did you not ? — I did. 

1246. In passing through Georgia and Persia, did you find that the people 
consumed British manufactures, and if so^ of what description ? — In the 
southern part of Persia from Ispahan, the bazaars were quite filled with 
British manufactures, printed goods principally ; in the northern parts they 
were tupplied with German and French gocNdt. 

liMTf. Did you find any British manufactures in Georgia and Tabriz ? — 
None, they were all French and German. 

P 1248. Were 



106 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS i 

7 March 1881. 1248. Were the tnarketa of Georgia and Tabriz as well supplied with the 
"~77 French and German goods as the southern markets of Persia were with British? 

J. jtUemft &g. __There appeared to be abundance enough in the bazaars, but they were 
either of a much finer or a much coarser description than our goods. 

1349' How were they with respect to price ? — Comparatively much dearer. 

ISdO. Were they worse adapted to the wants of the people ? — From being 
so much dearer, they were, and not exactly the patterns and descriptions 
required. 

IS.?!. In what years did you visit Malabar and the internal provinces of 
the southern part of India? — In 1819 and 1820. 

125S. Did you find the bazaars well stocked with British manufactures ?— 
No, none at all. 

1253. Were the bazaars of the British territory in the southern part of 
India you have visited, as well supplied with British manufactures as the 
bazaars of Persia were ? — I did not see any British manufactures in Malabar, 
or any of the southern parts of the Madras territory. 

1254. To what do you ascribe their absence at the time ? — Our goods had 
scarcely got down that length, probably. They were very well supplied with 
their own manufactures, and our goods at that period cost a great deal more 
than they do now. 

1255. What do you conceive to be the relative condition of the Persian 
peasantry, compared to that of the peasantry of the British territories in the 
south of India? — I should conceive the cultivators are pretty much alike in 
point of comfort. 

1256. Was not the Persian government then exceedingly bad, and the 
country in a state of great confusion and anarchy ?— It was, at the time I was 
there, and has been in a much worse state since, 1 understand. 

1257. When were you there? — I was there in 1822-3. 

1258. Did you conceive that the British cotton goods you saw in the south 
of Persia were supplied entirely from Bombay ?— Entirely. I met our own 
goods all through the country, from Ispahan downwards ; I knew them. 

1259. What is the port they are sent to from Bombay ?— We send them to 
Bushire. 

1260. What returns do you get ?^Principally bullion ; latterly ulk in large 
quantities from the province of Ghilan in the north of Persia. 

1261. Have you exported any British manufactures from Bombay to China? 
— We have, a small quantity. 

1262. Has the large importation of cotton piece goods from Great Britain 
proved injurious to the corresponding native manufactures ?— I should think 
it must, in some degree. 

1263. In 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. m 

1263. In what way ? — We have no imports whatever now into Bombay of 
muslins from Bengal. 

1264. Have any well authenticated instances of distress, produced by the 
Indian weavers being thrown out of employment in consequence of the intro* 
duction of English goods, come within your knowledge ?-— None to my own 
knowledge ; but I have heard that the weavers at Surat have been much dis- 
tressed in consequence, and have taken to other employments. 

1265. Must not the large importation of British cotton-twist have proved 
in some degree a substitute to the Indian weaver for the loss of work he has 
sustained by the importation of the manufactured article ? — It has, no doubt, 
to some extent. 

1266. During your acquaintance with Bombay, from 18IG to 1830, had 
the importation of raw silk from China, Bengal, and Persia, increased, or 
otherwise ? — I cannot speak positively as to the Bengal or China silk, but 
from Persia it has increased very much indeed. 

1267- May not this increased importation of raw silk have afforded new 
employment to the cotton weavers thrown out of work by the importation of 
British goods ?— It probably has, to some extent ; but the silk weaving is 
carried on at Ahmedabad only. 

1268. Where is Ahmedabad ?— It is in the northern district of Guzerat, 
under the Bombay government now. 

1269. Is that far from Surat ?— Probably two hundred miles. 

1270. You are probably aware that it has been frequently stated, that but 
for the discovery of the saw-gin, it would have been impracticable to have car- 
ried the production of upland cotton in America to the extent which it has 
now reached ? — I have been told so ; but that machine is for separating the 
cotton from the seed. 

1271 • Would not the introduction of a cotton of which the wool adhered 
with less tenacity to the seed, be in itself a considerable improvement upon 
the present one ?— It would, no doubt, if it was practicable. 

1272. You returned from India last year, did you not, by the route of 
Egypt?— I did. 

1273- Had you an opportunity of seeing the cultivation of cotton by the 
Pacha ; and if so, in what manner was it conducted, and what is the nature 
and character of the cotton ? — I examined many of the cotton fields in pass- 
ing through Egypt ; the cotton was sown in drills, as I believe is the custom 
in America. 

1274. Is it black seed^ long stapled cotton ?— It is. 

1275. How does it rank in comparison with American cottons in our 
market ?— -It is worse than the Sea Island cotton, better than the Upland 
cotton. 

P2 1«76. Why 



' . 



^. .." ^«lsi 



108 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



7 March 1831. 
J. Ritchie^ Esq. 



1276. Why does not it rank so high as the Sea Island cotton ?— I believe 
the staple is not so long or so fine, and it is probably much dirtier. 

1277. Is it consistent with your knowledge, that the Pacha of Egypt has 
of late been manufacturing cotton-twist by European machinery ? — ^Yes, I 
particularly examined one of his mills in full work, at Ghennah on the Nile. 

IS78. Is that moved by water ? — No, it is driven by cattle. 

1^9* Under whose directions were the works conducted, and how many 
labourers were employed ? — There was a native Mussulman at the head of an 
establishment of about five hundred boys and girls employed in the mill. 

1280. Did you examine the quality of the twist? — I did. 

1281. How was it in point of respective numbers? — It was a low num- 
bered yam, strong, but very unequal. 

1282. Have you heard that this twist has been exported to British India? 
— It has, since I left India. 

1283. What opinion do you entertain of this speculation on the part of the 
Pacha of Egypt ? — I should not think it could pay him. 

1284. Was it sold in India at a lower price than the British cotton-yarn ? 
—It had not been sold at the last accounts from India : it was not liked by 
the natives, it was not so well put up. 

1285. Do you know the price which was asked? — I do not know that they 
had gone even that length : they have been examining it, but the prices 
offered had been very low, lower than for English yarn. 

1286. Have you heard that a cotton-mill has been erected at Calctitta for 
spinning yarn ? — ^There has. 

1287* Do you consider that this speculation will answer ? — It will require, 
I think, to be very well and very economically managed to do so. 

1288. What are the relative qualities of the Chinese, Bengal, and Persian 
silks brought into the market of Bombay ? — ^They are all a low quality of silk 
as required for the Bombay manufacture, the Persian is the lowest I believe 
in the scale. 

1289* Has the quantity of Persian raw silk imported into Bombay and re- 
exported into England increased of late years ? — Very much. 

1290. To what circumstance do you attribute the origin of this new branch 
of trade ? — It has come down as returns for our British manufactures princi- 
pally, I believe : the imports of Ghilan silk into Bombay have been all within 
these ten years. 

1291. Do you consider the import into this country as a consequence of 
the reduction of duties? — Certainly. 

1292. Is it not imported into Bombay for the purpose of being sent into 
this country ? — ^There is a great consumption of coarse silk at Ahmedabad, 
within the Bombay territories: I have known 1,000 bales in one import, 
frequently, from Persia. 

1293. Did 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 109 

1993. Did the firm to which you belong make any efforts towards the im- 
provement of Indian cotton, in culture and preparation for the market?-— We 
did. 

1294. In what way ? — We imported cotton seeds from the Brazils and from 
America. 

1295. Are not you aware that similar attempts have been made in other 
parts of the Company's territories to improve tlie cotton ?— Yes. 

1296. Did any of those experiments of your's succeed ?— They did not. 

1297. To what do you ascribe their failure ? — The cotton deteriorated very 
much in some of the experiments, in others the seeds did not well come up. 
In one case, where we had the greatest expectation, in Salsette, the small 
crabs on the beach destroyed the green plants of the Sea Island cotton as 
soon as they came up. 

1298. Do you know whether the plant was left to the charge of natives, 
or placed under the superintendence of agents acquainted with the culture of 
American cotton ? — ^There was no person personally acquainted with the cul- 
ture of American cotton then on our side of India. 

1299* Are you not aware that Salsette has produced some very fine cotton ? 
—Yes, I have seen some samples. Our cotton seed was also tried at Ban- 
doop, and there failed. 

ISOO. Was not Dr. Scott's, in Salsette, considered equal to Bourbon cot- 
ton ? — I believe it was ; but that estate was abandoned before I went to India. 

1301. Do you know any other place in which fine cotton is produced for 
exportation? — I merely know of one on our side of India; that is a village 
near Manyrole in Kattywar, called Labarcoire, which produces a small 
quantity of very fine cotton. 

1802. By whom is that cultivated ? — By natives entirely. 

1 SOS. Is that of recent introduction 7 — ^They have always produced it there, 
but it has been but recently brought to this country. We imported some 
in 18l9f but never were able to trace where it came from till two or three 
years ago; since that time, probably, the imports into this country are from 
100 to 150 bales a year. What we sold in this country brought very nearly 
fifty per cenL more than the common cotton of Guzerat. 

lS04i. Was the price there much above the common cotton ?— At first we 
got it at nearly the same price ; but as it became known, the price was raised 
so as to become equal in proportion to its relative value. 

1505. Can it be increased ?— I understand it cannot be much increased. 
It appears to be only grown in one particular spot, but I have never been there. 

1506. Is this an extensive district ?— Very small where this particular cot- 
ton is grown. Manyrole produces a very large quantity of cotton* 

1307. Is it near the sea*>coast ?— It is, I believe. 

1308. Had 



110 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



7 March 1831. 1308. Had the East-India Company ever discovered this cotton, aiid 
. — 7" brought any of it to view ?— No, 1 do not think they had. I do not know 

J. RiteUe, Etg. ^^^^ j[ jg v^ithin their territory ; I rather think it is in the territory of a native 
prince. 

1309. At what distance is it from Bombay ? — Probably from two to three 
hundred miles. 

1310. How is it brought to Bombay ? — By boats : all the cotton to Bom- 
bay is brought by boats. 

1311. Do not you think tliat Salsette is capable of producing a vast quan- 
tity of cotton, if sufficient encouragement were given by Government? — I do 
not think that it would pay, at the present prices of cotton. 

131S. If encouragement were given by the Government, allowing those 
who chose to make experiments to have the land for a certain number of 
years rent-free, instead of exacting a vei^ heavy rent ? — That would certainly 
be a very great encouragement. Latterly the government have given large 
tracts of land in Salsette in several farms, to natives, within the last two years, 
for the encouragement of agriculture. 

1313. Is the cotton plant in that country an annual?— Almost entirely. 

1314f. Did you make any trial of American machinery for freeing cotton 
from the seed? — The government did. I recollect being present at a trial 
about ten or twelve years ago, of applying the saw-gin to Bombay cotton. 

1315. Will you state the result of that experiment ? — It was not success- 
ful ; the machinery ground up the seed with the cotton. Our cotton 
adheres strongly to the seed. 

1316. Does not this prove that there is a material difference between the one 
description of cotton and the other? — I believe the seed in the Surat cotton 
adheres much mure strongly to the fibre than it does in the American cotton. 

1317. Have the Hindoos or other natives of India, as far as your expe- 
rience extends, evinced any indisposition to the consumption of staple British 
commodities, other than that arising from inability to purchase, or unsuit- 
ableness of the article offered to them, to their tastes and habits ? — None 
other that I am aware of. 

131 8. In what manner did you make your returns to Great Britain for the 
manufactures you imported from thence? — In produce of all descriptions, in 
bullion, and in bills ; and we used to send produce round by China, and 
advance on cottons going to China, and send opium also to China. 

1319. How did you get your returns from China? — From China our 
returns went in bullion, bills, and in silk. 

1320. To this country? — Yes, and to Bombay. 

1321. Was that exporting in Company's ships? — The bullion and bills for 
England went in the Company's ships, but our produce came to Sincapore 
or Bombay, brought in country ships. 

1322. What 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. HI 

1329. What produce do you allude to ? — We ourselves only imported silk 
in that way ; but nankeens, sugar, cassia, and other produce, are lai^ly 
imported as returns to Bombay. 

IdSS. Is any use made of American or other foreign ships for that pur- 
pose ?— No, I never knew any. 

1324. Will you describe the character of the cotton commonly exported 
from the west side of India ? — It is called, with reference to American cotton, 
a short stapled cotton. In general it is very dirty, and latterly it has been 
very much injured by the natives in adulterating it with water and sand 
before it came down to Bombay from Surat, and other shipping ports to the 
northward. 

1325. In respect to quality as estimated by price, how does it stand in 
reference to the ordinary cottons imported from America?— It is the lowest 
of all. 

1320. How much below the common American upland cotton ?— The 
general run of Surat cotton is probably fifteen per cent, lower than the 
general run of upland cottons. 

1327* Do you believe that much of that difference of price arises from the 
defective mode of cleaning it, or that it is inherent in the natural quality 
of the two descriptions of cotton ? — A great part of the difference is in the 
comparative state of cleanliness between the two. 

1328. If you were to take a small piece of one cotton, and of the other, 
perfectly clean, would there be still a difference of value between the one 
and the other ?^Between the cleaned Bombay cottons, and the best cleaned 
American upland cottons, I conceive there would be ten to fifleen per cent, 
difference. 

1329* There is a real difference in the intrinsic value of the article, inde- 
pendent of any skill of management ? — I think there is. 

1330. You stated, that it was not possible to clean the Indian cotton with 
the same machinery as you clean the American cotton ? — Not with the saw- 
gin, certainly ; we never clean cotton with the saw-gin. 

1331. Is it possible with any machinery to render the Bombay cotton as 
clean from the seed as the American ? — Yes, I have seen Bombay cotton as 
clean as any American cotton. 

1332. By what process? — By picking it clean from the bushes originally. 
The machinery does not effect the cleaning of it ; the machine is only used 
to take away the seed, it must be picked clean. 

1333. Does not the greater part of the dirt which exists in the cotton 
arise from the imperfect clearing away the seed ? — ^No, it is leaf principally, 
and sand as well as seed* left in by carelessness or design. 

1334. Are you not aware that within the last two years, the quality of 
what is called Surat cotton has been very much improved, in consequence 

of 



^' 



112 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

T March 18S1. of regulations by the government in preventing the adulteration of it? — 
— ;- Within the last four or five years, the cotton usually imported into Bombay 

,7. Ritthie^ Etq. ^^^^ come in a very adulterated state, being mixed with sand and water. 
Strong representations were made by the trade to the government to endea- 
vour by regulations to prevent this. A regulation was made which came 
into operation in May in 1830, fixing penalties upon all proprietors of cotton 
found in that state, and confiscating the cotton so found adulterated ; since 
that time the cotton has been comparatively clean again, and free from 
adulteration. 

1335. Has It not, in consequence, produced a corresponding rise in price 
in China as well as in this country ? — It has, certainly. 

1336. Is not the Surat cotton you have described applicable only to the 
coarser manufactures of this country ? — Generally so. 

1337. Is not therefore the demand for it in this country, whatever might 
be the extent of supply, limited? — It is becoming, I apprehend, a much 
more usefiil cotton in our manufactures than it was. They now mix it in 
spinning the finer cottons, which they did not do formerly ; they use it more 
generally in the mills of this country than they did formerly. 

1338. If the quantity could be very extensively increased from India, 
would it answer the manufacturing purposes in this country to which Ame- 
rican and West-India cottons are applied? — I should think it would very 
materially interfere with the consumption of the low American cottons. 

1339. You stated, that it was owing to penalties and liability to confis- 
cation, this cotton was improved?— 'Yes, as far as the purposed adulteration 
went. 

1340. Would not that be better effected in the ordiqary state of things, 
by interesting private individuals to cultivate it, and bring it to market ?^— 
Ihe cultivation had been quite free up to this period. 

1311 . The question supposes that individuals poesessing capital will engage 
in the cultivation of cotton in India ; do you not imagine that, under those 
circumstances, it would be their interest to bring the cotton in the best 
state to market?— Certainly. 

1342. And that, therefore, penalties and regulations would not, under 
those circumstances, be necessary? — Certainly not. 

1343. Have not the natives of India great dislike to the adoption of our 
machinery ? — Certainly they have, they dislike all changes. 

1344. Does not that go even to the extent of their refusing to use otir 
small ploughs which have been sent out to India, and still adhering to their 
own wooden plough ? — ^That has not come within my own knowledge. X 
remember hearing of an English plough that was sent to Colonel Ford'a 
estate at Dapoorie, near Foonah, but I am not aware it was ever used any- 
where else, or even found useful. 

1345. Is 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 113 

134i5. Is it not within your knowledge, that even to this day they use 
cattle for the treading the corn? — Yes, I have seen tliat operation going on. 

1346. Do you conceive that the natives of India dishke any change that 
is obviously for their own advanUge, and which they can understand to be 
for their own advantage ? — There is great difficulty in persuading tiiem that 
changes are for their advantage. 

1347- Do you not conceive that they are more indisposed to change than 
any people in the world ? — I have seen some certainly in my travelling about 
the world very difficult to be persuaded to changes,' but 1 shouhl think the 
natives of India were the most so. 

1348. Did not you say that the poorer people are most indisposed to 
change ? — I should say so. 

1349. What provinces in India produce the best cotton? — Guzerat. 

1350. When you speak of India, you are speaking of the whole peninsula 
of India ?— Yes, the eastern side of the gulf of Cambay 

1351. Have you resided in any part of India but Bombay ? — Not as a 
permanent residence ; I have visited them. 

1352. Is the cotton cultivated in drills as in America, and is there much 
pains taken in the cultivation ? — No, it is broadcast, sown pretty much as 
corn is in this country. 

1353. Is there care taken of it afterwards? — There is no care taken of it 
afterwards, except to keep the cattle out of it. 

1354. It is very much neglected from the time it is sown till it is picked ? 
—Very much so. 

1355. Is the Indian a green seed short stapled cotton, and an annual plant? 
— It is. 

1350. In the parts of India you visited is there no black seed long stapled 
perennial cotton cultivated ?— None whatever. 

1357. Have you had an opportunity of seeing any garJen cultivation of 
cotton of a superior kind ? — 1 saw at Ahmedabad the red flowered cotton, 
called by the natives noorma, in small quantities, a perennial. 

1358. That grows on a highish bush : — ^Yes; the common cotton of India 
is the vellow flowered cotton. 

1359' Has any improvement taken place in the quality of the Surat or 
Bombay cotton since the opening of the free trade ? — Certainly not, until 
the adoption of the regulation I have referred to : the cotton in 1818 and 
1819 was better than any I have seen since. 

1360. Is that improvement you mention an improvement in the cleanness 
of the cotton, or in the nature of the cotton itself? — In the cleanness entirely. 
I do not think there is any improvement in the cotton itself. 

13G1. What is the description of machinery used by the natives of India 

Q in 



114 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



•/. Bitchie^ Esq. 



7 March I83L in cleaning cotton from the seed ?-*It is a smaU band-gin, a wooden cylin- 
drical machine, named a churkee. 

1362. Is it the same as they have used from time immemorial ?•— It is the 
same as they have used from time immemorial, the same as is used for dear- 
ing the Sea Island cotton of its seed in America. 

1363. Does the wool adhere with great tenacity to the seed, and is the 
process of separation tedious and expensive ? — ^Yes ; and it adheres so firmly 
that the American saw-gin ground up the seed in attempting to clear it 

1364. Did that arise from the seed being too ripe when the cotton was 
picked ? — No, I believe it is the nature of the cotton ; it adheres very 
tenaciously. 

1305. Do you know whether any improvement would take place in cotton, 
provided it were picked at a different period ?— -I conceive it would be pidked 
cleaner if it were picked as the pods separately became ripe, which I believe 
is the case in America. 

1366. Are there any lands producing cotton in the hands of Europeans at 
present ? — None that I am aware of at the present moment. 

1367* In the cultivation there is no change ?— None. The attempts which 
have been made since I have been in India have been all unsuccessful, inde- 
pendent of that now made by government in Guzerat ; but that has just been 
established. What that can do has not been yet ascertained. 

1368. If Europeans were permitted to settle there, do you apprehend that 
farms for the production of cotton would be cultivated by Europeans ?— 
They might ; but as far as they have gone yet, they have not been successful* 
I have known two or three attempts. 

1369* Do you conceive that a fair trial has been given ? — As far as those 
attempts went, I think they have been very fair trials. The late Dr. Gilder, 
of Ahmedabad, had a large piece of ground, called the Shahibaag^ given him 
for experiments in cotton and other products. 

1370. Do you mean given in perpetuity ? — ^No, for a time, I believe ; as 
long as he chose to continue those experiments. 

1371 . By whom ? — By government j lent to him by government rent-free. 

137i2. Was he in the Company's service ? — He was; but he had given up 
promotion, and was allowed to trade ; he was the civil surgeon at Ahmedabad. 

1373. Did he lay out much capital in theae experiments ?—*He must have 
done so : we furnished him with seed. 

1374. Did he get any other person to instruct the natives fn the prepanu 
tion ? — He was there personally, had his partners, one of whom was a white 
person born in the country. 

137^* Are you aware of any other instance of this nature ? — ^The late 
Mr. David Malcolm tried it to a small extent. 

IS76. Where 



N 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE of COMMONS. 115 

IS76. Where was that? — At Amboly on Salsette. 

1377. Are these experiments still in progress ?— No, they have been both 
given up ; they were not successful. 

1978. Was any impediment thrown in their way by any of the authorities 
of the Company ? — None whatever, every facility was given them by govern- 
ment. 

1379* You consider the experiments to have been as fairly tried as if there 
had been a free permission to settle in India? — Certainly. 

1380. When were these experiments made ? — Dr. Gilder's were probably 
during the last twelve years. 

1381. How long did he continue ?— -Two or three years I think: he 
attempted to grow finer cottons, and he found that they deteriorated. 

138^. Dr. Scott's attempts were thirty years ago ?— -Yes, his estate was a 
wilderness when I was there. 

1383. Have you compared the cotton produced on that experimental farm ? 
— ^Yes, it was very superior cotton, but it did not pay ; the cultivation was 
too expensive. 

1384. To what extent superior ?-— The first year's crop of long stapled 
cotton was very good ; the second was worse ; and the third became very 
nearly the same quality as our common cotton. 

1385. So that the superiority was in the introduction of the new seed ? — 
Yes, which deteriorated in a succession of crops. 

1386. Would it not be possible to improve the general quality of cotton in 
India by a constant importation of new seed ? — I presume that would be 
possible^ but I do not think it would pay. 

1387* Is cotton seed an article of any expense ?— It is difiicult to bring it 
in sound, it heats on a long voyage. 

1388. What is the average of Surat cotton at the present market price in 
England ? — Probably, the fair run of Bombay cotton would average five- 
pence a pound. 

1389. Can you state to the Committee what diminution of that price would 
make it no longer worth while to bring it to this country altogether ?-^At 
the present moment it pays a fair profit. 

1390. Would it at four-pence pay a profit ?-*-No, there would be money 
lost by it 

1391. Would it cease to be imported at a profit when at four-pence ?— Tes, 
at the present rate of freights. 

139^. Would it at four-pence halfpenny ?«— I think four-pence halfpenny 
would pay, as a matter of remittance, but that would be all. 

1393. Might it still be imported at lower prices by diminishing the price 
of the cost in India, or would its cultivation cease ?— I believe the prices of 

Q 9 cotton. 



116 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

7 March 1831. cottoii, by the last account from Bombay for the previous six or eight nxuiths, 

T T>-7T~ r- ^*^ lower than I ever knew them in India. 
J. Ritchie, Esq. ,•,■,,, 

13!H. Are the prices approaching to that rate when it would be notongel* 
grown to a profit: — I understand it is almost as low as it can be cultivated at. 

1395. Whatfreight is it paying? — Five pounds a ton, and to 6ve guineas ; 
that comes to very near a penny a pound. 

1396. Is that a high or a low rate? — I believe the usual descriptions of 
free-trade ships can nfford to sail at that rate j a small quantity of one cargo 
has recently brought sixpence a pound in Liverpool. 

1397' Are you aware whether, in consequence of the regulations in 
respect of adulteration of cotton, the price has been increased or otherwise ? 
— Certainly nut : the price has been lower during the last six months in 
India, than ever I knew it. 

1398. Is cotton taken at all in payment of revenue:— Not at all now. 

1399. When did that cease ?*— I think it ceased on Mr. Elphinstone 
coming to the government, in 1820. 

1400. By whom is the cotton purchased on your account from the ryots? 
— I believe, in general, it passes from the ryot to the native shroff of the 
village, who has advanced money upon it : it often comes to Bombay upon 
his account. 

1401. Have you any agent of your own in the cotton districts? — We had, 
as long as Gilder's house existed ; they were our agents in the districts. 

1402. Was that gentleman at that time employed in the collection of the 
revenue ? — No, not at all. 

1403. What per centage did you pay ? — Five per cent, for a number of 
years : latterly he lowered his commission to three per cent, on all his pur- 
chases for us. 

1404. At present you get it through the medium of natives r— Yes. 
Latterly theie has been very little cotton brought to the northward on 
European account ; we allow it to be brought on native account to Bombayi 
and purchase it there. 

1405. Do you find many of those natives whom you can trust with your 
transactions f — Yes. 

1406. And the cotton delivered to you would correspond with the sample ? 
— We purchase it by sample, and examine almost every bale. When the 
deterioration went on to such an extent, we were obliged to examine every 
bale in two or three places, it was so false packed. 

1407. Had you any confidence in those who brought it down ?—N(^ none 
at all. 

1408. Are the shroffs generally a low class of persons ?— They are not of 
a tow caste, the shroff caste is not a low one. 




SELi:CT COMMITTEE of tiik HOUSE OF COMMONS. 11? 

l+OO. They are the principal men in the village? — Yes, I believe so. 

1410. Are there any extensive merchants engajjed in the trade? — ^Very 
much so ; very rich natives at Dollora, Jamborin, Surat, and other great 
shipping northern ports. 

1411. In those cases, do yon conceive the regulations of government 
Hgiiinst the adulteration of cotton to be necessary or not r — I do not conceive 
that any of those respectable men would do it, but that underlings would if 
thoy were not lookeil after, to whom they are obliged to delegate that duty. 

141^2. Are you aware that a constant change, both of seed and soil, is 
necessary for the successful cultivation of cotton ?— I am not aware that it is 
practised in India : on the contrary, I believe that the cotton-lands have 
been so for a very great extent of time. 

1413. Might not the deterioration you mention arise very much from the 
circumstance of its being grown so long on the same soil ? — I cannot say 
exactly: the lands where the experiments I allude to were made, are gene- 
laljy fresh lands, and not long under cotton. 

1414. In passing through Persia, had you an opportunity of witnessing the 
culture of the mulberry, and the rearing of tlie silkworm ?— -No, the prepara- 
tion of silk is entirely confined to the province of Ghilan on the Caspian Sea. 

1415. Did you undersUind that there was a great exportation of this raw 
silk to the countries to the westward and northward of Persia ?— Yes, very 
extensively to Russia and Turkey. 

1416. Is there any sugar produced from the cane for exportation within 
the Bombay provinces? — ^None for exportation. 

1417- Is not the sugarcane cultivated in almost all the provinces of the 
Bombay territory? — Yes, everywhere ; I have seldom seen a village but what 
had a patch of sugarcane attached to it. 

1418. Can you explain the reason why sugar is not made from the cane in 
the manner immemorially practised in the Bengal provinces?— I suppose 
that they can import it cheaper. It is never made into sugar on our side ; it 
only goes the length of juggaree, which is a thick substance like molasses. 
Sugar is brought in from Bengal, China, Manilla and Mauritius, and Java 
occasionally. 

1419* Is machinery for the manufacture of sugar wholly unknown under 
the Bombay presidency ? — Totally unknown ; there is no manufacture of 
sugar in the Bombay presidency. 

1420. Does that observation apply to the whole of the western side of 
India ? — I belive so, as far as my knowledge extends. 

1421. Is tobacco extensively produced in Guzerat^ or other parts of the 
Bombay territory ? — Extensively in the northern districts generally, and I 
believe throughout all our territories. 

1422. Of 



118 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

1 March 1831 . 1422. Of what quality ?— Very fine. We imported some into this country 

a good many years ago ; we first tried the experiment. 

J. Hitrkif, Esq. j^gjj y^^ jjj jj. g^ji p__One bale of the parcel we imported sold higher 
than any American in the market at the time ; it brought sixpeace a pound 
in bund. 

\\t\. How was the average of it: — The average of it was found to be de 
fective in the curing, and did not pay. 

143J. From what you know of the article, should you say upon the whole 
it 13 better or worse than the tobacco of America? — It ia of a different descrip> 
tion from the tobacco of North America, it approaches more to the BrasH 
tobacco, the thin-leaved tobacco. 

1426. To what countries is it exported ? — It is brought to all the baxaars 
through India: it comes down in large quantities from Guzerat to Bom- 
bay. 

1427. Have you known of any attempts to import it to this country?— 
Yes, we tried it ourselves, and government tried it also. 

1428. To what do you ascribe the failure of the attempt on your part?— 
It was not sufiiciently cured, and some of it was over cured : it is a very deli- 
cate plant One bale brought sixpence a pound, when the best American 
was five pence. 

1429- What did it cost a maund? — I think we paid 3 or 3^ rupee* a 
maund : our tobacco maund is not above 38lbs. I think. 

1430. Are you of opinion, that if this was properly cured for the voyage, 
it would answer as an article of exportation from India to Europe ?-— -Our 
experiment so far proved that ; but the difficulty is, that it is so very delicate 
to hring it into that proper state, the slightest particle of green vegetable 
matter left in it heats it on the voyage. 

1431. Are you not aware that all tobacco, just tike hay in this country, 
must undergo a heating to be fit for use? — Yes, I am aware of that. 

1432. The heating of this tobacco was too great ? — Yes, it rotted. 

1433. What price has the article fetched in the English market ? — ^Not 
much above a penny or twopence, I believe. The whole imports of tobacco 
from Bengal and Bombay together have been failures. 

1434. Are there at present, on the part of the government of Bombay, any 
impediments to individuals making ^e experiment of improving the culture^ 
or increasing the export of tobacco to Europe ? — None whatever, I mn 
satisfied that every facility will be given by the government, and is given by 
the government, to any attempts at improving the cultivation ofthe country.' 

143^. Is it not your opinion, that if this article had been cultivated to 
advantage, experiments would have been long ago made ?— Yes, certainly, 
we should have proceeded ourselves in exporting it, if we could hare done it 
10 a profit. 

14S6. Can 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 119 

14S6. Can Europeans hold land ? — Now they can. 

1437* Since what time? — I think about two years ago that the regulations 
were altered in that respect. 

1438. What leases may they have? — It is the tenure they gave in Bengal 
to the cofiee cultivation ; I think it is ninety-nine years. 

1439* It is only within two years that permission has been given to Euro- 
peans to hold land ? — I think it is about that time that public intimation was 
given, but Dr. Scott and others have had lands longer for experiments. 

\44fO. Was the tobacco of Guzerat you allude to cultivated with more 
skill than cotton, or any other production of the soil ? — ^Yes, I think the 
tobacco lands of Guzerat, that I saw under cultivation, were the cleanest 
and best farmed lands I ever saw. 

1441. The failure in our market was owing to the imperfection in the cur- 
ing, was it not ?— Yes. 

1442. Would a perfectly free intercourse between Bombay and China, and 
between China and Great Britain, in your opinion, add facilities to the com- 
mercial intercourse between Great Britain and India ? — Yes, certainly, in my 
opinion it would. 

1443. Had you been permitted to ship tea from China to Great Britain or 
other countries, do you consider that such permission would have added to 
the facility of transmitting your funds to England ? — Certainly. 

1444. When you first proceeded to India, had you a license from the East^ 
India Company ? — I had ; I had free merchant's indentures. 

1445. What did you pay for those indentures, and what covenants did 
you enter into with the East-India Company ? — I think I paid £25, and I 
suppose I entered into the usual covenants ; I never read them. 

1446. What you paid was to the clerks, and for stamps, and so on?— I 
presume so. 

1447. What privileges did that give you ? — I am not aware of any, except 
the privilege of rending and trading in India. 

1448. Was it for yourself individually, or for a whole family ?— For myself 
individually. 

1449. Were you called upon to produce your indentures when you arrived 
at Bombay ?— 1 was not 

1450. When you had occasion to visit Guzerat, were you called upon for 
your indentures, and had you to procure a passport ?-— I think I sent my in- 
dentures to the police office when I applied for my passport. 

1451. Was a passport forthwith granted tayou bpr the police without 
delay?— It was not j I think the police-master applied to government for 
their sanction. 

1452. In passing through the territories of Midra8» Bengal and Bombay; 

were 



W "k 



1«0 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

7 March I8SI. were you frequently called upon for your passport (^— Never, thatI;iecollect, 
T uTr" T. in any one instanqe, . 

J. KltcAlf, Esq. rr . . /.I 

I-lr;93. Had you letters of introduction to the authorities wherever you 
went ?— I think I had, pretty generally. 

1454. Are British-born subjects arriving at Bombay called upon to produce 
licenses from the Court of Directors ; and failing to produce such licenses, is 
the law against interlopers earned into effect against them r — i never knew 
of an instance, with the exception of Mr. Buckingham's, of any European 
being sent from our presidency in consequence of a want of license. 

1455. Was Mr. Buckingham's expulsion from Bombay previous to his 
being a public writer? — I think it was. 

1456. He was in the capacity of a merchant at that time ? — He had come 
over as a merchant, 1 think, Jrom Egypt. 

1457. Can you state why Mr. Buckingham was sent away ?-~I was not in 
Bombay at the time } but I never understood that there was any other reason 
than that he was unlicensed ^ he was sent away by Sir Evan Nepean. 

1458. Have you not understood that he never became a public writer till 
he went to Calcutta ? — ! understand he commenced as a public writer 
there. 

1459. What number of British-born subjects are there within the ternto* 
ries of Bombay, not in the service of bis Majesty or the Company ?— I can- 
not hazard an answer to that question, ihey are not very numerous. . 

I4G0. Are there a thousand ? — No. 

1461. Five hundred ? — I doubt whether there are five hundred. 

1462. Seven hundred? — Certainly not. 

1463. Do you know of any British-born subjects, not in the service of his 
Majesty or I he Company, residing within the Bombay presidency without a 
license? — I know various individuals who have no licenses. 

1164. Have those persons arrived since the commencement of the admi. 
nistration of Mr. Elphinstone? — Those 1 allude to have arrived since he 
became governor. 

146.1. How has it been since the commencement of Sir John Malcolm's 
administration; has positive encouragement been given since that time? — 
There has been very great encouragement given by Sir John Malcolm and 
his council for individuals to take farms, to go into the interior ; very great 
encouragement. 

1466. What has been the eifect of this encouragement? — That has all' 
been so recent, that hitherto it has been impossible to say. ' 

I4f7. Have many established tliemselves? — Not a great number ; Iknow 
only ot three or four instances. 

1468. Do 




SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. ISl 

1468. DoyouaeeadispMition to availtfaemselvetofthisencoungeinent? i 
—Yes, I think there ib a disposition certainly to that effect. 

H69> Is the encouragement given, in your judgment, sufficient to induce 
the people there to lay out capitu ? — I do not know that; they are a good deal 
deterred, I believe, by the want of success of the three or four establishments 
which have been tried there so long ago. I know no mercantile houses who 
have any thing to do with those operations. 

1470. They are not deterred by any steps taken by the Company's govern- 
ment?— None whatever. 

1471. Whattitlehavethevtotheirlands?— The title to their Undsisthe 
same as that given to the cultivators of coffee in Bengal. 

1473. What nort of engagement have they ?— It is a lease. 

1473. For what period ? — I think it is for a long period. 

1474. Is it a lease for sixty years ? — 1 think it is longer. 

147^. Could any British-bom subject without a license have resided at Bom. 
bay during the administration of Sir Evan Nepean, as far as your experience 
of it extends? — I know he sent away Mr. Buckingham for being unlicensed; 
but, excepting that fact, I could not judge. 

1476. Then, according to your statement, it will appear that the recent 

fovemment of Bombay have not viewed the resort of British-bom subjects to 
ndia as being so prejudicial to U)e interests of the country as their predeces- 
sors did? — I presume they do not consider them prfjjudicial, or they would 
enforce the regulations. 

1477. In addition to that, they have given them direct encouragement ? 
-Yes, for agricultural puqrases, certainly. 

1478. Are you not of opinion the Company's authorities having the power 
to send perrons awav, affords them the means of supporting their authority 
in the country ?— Most certainly. 

1479. Would you think it advisable that that power should be withdrawn 
from the Company ?— Certainly not, in my opinion. 

1480. Will you state to the Committee whether, within your knowled^, 
that power has been ever abused by the Company ?— -I never knew an in- 
stance of it, except that to which I have referred, and the expulsion of Mr. 
Fair, which was thought a very harsh measure of the government when I 
was there. 

1481. When did that occur ? — It occurred in Mr. Elphinstooe's time, I 
diinkt three or four yean ago. 

148^ Do you know the grounds of that measure ? — It was in consequence 

of a poinpUint of the supreme court 

' )iMSL Can yba state what the nature of the complaint of tiie supreme court 

wu?— The reason I betiev6 was, that the supreme court complained to the 

■ :/. MAI R government 




138 EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS: 

7 March 18S1. government that Mr. Fair, aa a newspaper editor, had misrepresenled in his 



</. £itckie, Etq. 



paper something that was said b^ one of the judges in the court 

1484. It was for his conduct as editor ofanewspaper? — ^Yes. 

1485. Are you not of opinion, that the power of expulsion possessed by 
tlie government would be a greatobjection to an individual investing a large 
capital in the cultivation of cotton r — I do not think they would to a person 
determined to carry on its cultivation properly and quietly. 

1 486. Supposing he was expelled, would not the greater part of the capital 
he had expended in the cultivation of his cotton be lost ? — I should think 
there would be great risk of its being lost 

1487. Do you think that the govemmeat of that country, considering the 
small number of British subjects by whom such large extent of territories is 
commanded, could support its authority satisfactorily without the power of 
sending home any persons who might, in their opinion, be disturbing the 
authority under which they were living ? — I am clearly of opinion that the 
power is necessary. 

1 488. The removal of the individual you have just mentioned was not the 
result of any sentence of the court? — No, it was in consequence of a com- 
plaint of the court. 

1489. When you stated that this power is necessary in the hands of govern- 
ment, do you give that answer, looking to the state of the law as it exists at 
the present moment in India, or the possibility of an amelioration of that 
law?— I should be afraid if those regulations were withdrawn altogether, and 
that all individuals had the power to go and settle there, the worst, and 
a very improper and dangerous class to the peace of the country, might get 
to India, 

1490. What number of British-born subjects, such as the planters of 
Bengal, are there settled, and following agricultural pursuits within the terri- 
tories subject to the Bombay presidency ? — Excepting the few that have gone 
lately in consequence of the recent encour^ement held out by government, 
there are none whatever. 

1491. Can you explain to the Committee why so many settlers of that 
description have been established in the Bengal provinces, while there are 
none in the Bombay ? — No ; I suppose they found it more their interest to 
remain in Bengal than to come to our side. 

1499. Are British-bom subjects now permitted to hold land in perpetuity 
or on long leases, in any part of the Bombay territories ?— Under the present 
regulations, they are permitted to hold land in the interior on long leases^ 
and on the island of Bombay they hold houses I believe in perpetuity. 

1493. Have they been always allowed to hold houses in perpetuity or 
otherwise in the island of Bombay ?— They have. 

1494. Are 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 1«S 

1494. Are they or the natives the principal proprietors of real property 
within the island of Bombay ? — The natives. 

149^. Is the value of houses or lands in Bombay comparatively high or 
otherwise ?-— Comparatively, as between Madras andf Calcutta, I think it is. 

1496, Are they latterly rising? — Rents are rising. 

1497* What is the ordinary interest of money in the island of Bombay 
within the jurisdiction of the King's court, on good security ? — Nine per 
cent, is the interest with the natives, and the Europeans lend their money 
at nine per cent, but the interest with the mercantile houses is only five per 
cent. 

1498. Is there an^ commission charged ? — Not on those loans ; there is a 
one per cent commission on the account generally. 

1 499. How comes the interest of money to be lower in Bombay than in 
Bengal ? — We haye not so much employment for it ; we employ a good deal 
of our money in Bengal. 

1500. The profits of trade are smaller, probably? — I have no doubt 
they are. 

1501. Is it in consequence of these circumstances more steady?— It is 
more steady from that circumstance. 

1502. Are the means of investing money smaller at Bombay than at Cal- 
cutta f — Certainly they are ; there is a good deal of Bombay money engaged 
generally in Bengal. 

1503. Are you in the habit of advancing money for. agricultural purposes, 
as is largely done in Bengal ? — Not at all. 

1504. Does no part of the capital of Bombay go to Bengal, to seek a more 
profitable employment there ? — Yes. 

1505. Are there any banks, either public or private, in Bombay ? — None. 

1506. What is your circulation ? — Bullion entirely. 

1507. Silver? — Silver now; all our gold has been exported to England 
years ago. 

1508. Would banking establishments, like those at Bengal that issue notes, 
add facilities in carrying on commercial affairs ? — We do not require them, 
we have more money than we know what to do with generally in the mer* 
cantile world at Bombay. 

1509. You have, no doubt, often heard it asserted, that the free trade 
with India has, proved a loss, and not a gain to the parties conducting it 
since 1814 ; is it consistent with your own knowledge and inquiries that such 
has been the case ; or, on the contrary, do you consider the course of the 
Indian trade as resembling that of other branches of the foreign trade of the 
kingdom, in which the speculations have sometimes been advantageous and 
sometimes otherwisjs ?— Certaiolyp I should consider that» upon Uie whole, 

R 2 the 



124 



BV]IDBNCR ON EAST.INDI A AFFAIRS : 



J. aUcUe, E9q. 



7 March 1881. the ladiao trade, jincerthe opening of the trader has been a. isource of gain ; 

but, probably^ not to a very large extent. 

1510. Oniifhat evidence do you consider it probable that the fred .trade 
haSy'Upon the whde, been advantageous to those conducting it i^-— I have no 
doubt, from my own experience of our own establishment 

151 1. Have you any objection to state to the Committee, whether the 
India trade, from your first entering into it in 1816 to the present time, has 
generally answered your purposes as a merchant? — Yes, certainly, it has. 

1512. Do you conceive that the trade might be considerably increased if 
there were a power of getting returns to England ? — It would, certainly, if 
the power of getting returns was greater. 

1513. Is not the absence of proper returns the chief impediment to its 
greater increase? — It is a very great impediment, certainly: at present we 
have rather glutted the Indian markets. 

1 51 4. Do you conceive there would be any difficulty in parting with 
English manufactures if there were proper returns' to be sent ?-~Wie could 
afford to sell our manufactures there so much cheaper, by aU the additional 
profit we could make upon our returns. 

J 515. Is there any indigo grown in the province of Bombay?— None 
whatever for exportation. 

J516» Is the silk sent from Bombay to England improved ?— We have no 
native silks on our side of India. 

1517. Has the Persian or Chinese silk improved ? — I am not aware that it 
has. 

1518. Could not silk be grown in the Bombay district, in your opinion ? 
—I cannot speak to that ; I have no means of forming an opinion. 

1519. Can you state to the Committee, frdm your own extensive expe- 
rience as a merchant carrying on trade between this country and India, any 
general alterations which Parliament might make in the renewal of the 
charter to the East-India Company, which in your opinion would be bene- 
ficial to the interests of merchants ? — I am not aware of anything that is 
necessary on our side of India. 

1520. You cannot suggest any alterations to be made in the existing 
charter of the Company, which in your opinion would materially improve 
the trade between the two countries ?«-I am not aware of any, except the 
giving us greater facilities of making our returns from China. 

I5S1. You do not think that, as it respects the peninsula of Indiat any 
materially increased facilities are necessary ? — I am not aware of any im- 
pediment whatever, which we labour under, that could be removed, except 
taking off our duties. 

1522. Yon are not aware that your trade is molested or impeded in any 
way by the authorities of the East-India Company, so as to make any inter- 
ference 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OP COMMONS. H5 

fereoce of Pariiament in the restriction of the power e£ the Conmany of i 
service to you ?— There used to be local duties exacted on our gaom gmng 
up^ and on produce coming down the country : a regolatioq was htdy ppf *f 
lisbed by the goveriunent to take these all 06^ andonly levy dutie&at t^(9 
ports. Those regulations were approved by the Court of I)irectofSy and 
they were to have been put in force in May last, so that all goods once im* 
ported from England should be free in the Company's territories of all minor 
imposts i and 1 am sorry to hear that it has not yet been put into efiect. 

1523. Do you mean the transit duties ?— Yes, that certainly would faci- 
litate our operations if the duties were confined to the ports. 

1524. You cannot point out to the Committee any other inconveniences 
you labour under ?— I cannot 

15^. The opening of the trade to China would give great facilities to the 
trade between this country and Bombay ?•— Certainly it would; it would 
much facilitate our returns. 

l5iG. Has not the trade between Bombay and Poonah, and the territory 
of the late Peishwa, fallen off very consitierably since that country came 
into our possession ? — I have understood so. 

1527* Has not the export generally of China articles from Bcmibay to the 
Deccan decreased ? — It has, and also the exportation of metab. 

] 598. Are you not aware that a very extensive import of cotton goods 
took place into India, about the years 1809 or 1810, sent out by the late 
Sir Robert Peel ;— Yes, I have heard so. 

1549. Those were sold at very low prices ? — Yes. 

1530. That first gave encouragement to the natives to look to these 
articles ?— -So I have understood. 

1531. You mentioned, that a very considerable consumption of cotton 
goods took place on the island of Bombay ?— -Yes* 

1532. What is the general condition of the great class of people on the 
island of Bombay in reference to means?— •! should think tnat the great 
body were of coui^ the poorer castes, the poorer classes. 

1533. Is not that the case also in the Deccan, and throughout the Com- 
pany's territories on the western side of India ?•— It is. 

1534. Are not the great body almost in a situation of beggary ? — I cannot 
say altogether that ; they certainly are very poor, but they require very 
little to support them. 

1535. Without bettering the situation of the natives of India, giving them 
the means of paying for imports, is it possible you can greatly increase the 
trade with that country ? — Probably not to any veiy great extent, to increase 
it very much. 

1536. Are you not aware that the land rent is very high in India? — I have 
understood it is. 

1537. When 



126 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



7 March 1831. 



J. Bitchie^ Esq. 



1537. When you say that China articles imported into Poonah have fallen 
off, are you alluding to the former part of your evidence, of the tutenague 
having fallen off ?-^I allude to the change which has taken place since the 
country fell into our possession ; when Poonah was the residence of the 
court of the Peishwa, there was a great deal more money circulating there. 

1538. You account for it from the circumstance of Poonah having ceased 
to be the seat of that government? — I do. 

1539. You say that, generally speaking, the natives of India are in a state 
of indigence or destitution ; did you pass through any provinces not belong- 
ing to the Company ?— I did. 

1 540. Were the natives in those provinces in a worse or better condition, 
or much the same ? — They appeared to be much the same. 

1541. Was there any difference in the appearance of the cultivation of 
lands ? — No, I am not aware that there was. The Company^s territories 
through which I passed were very much intersected. In Guzerat, consider- 
able portions of the country, when I was in it, belonged to the Peishwa and 
the Guicowar ; I could not perceive any considerable difference. 

15*2. You have had no opportunity of comparing the condition of the 
natives in the Deccan now, with their former condition under the Mahratta 
government? — None whatever ; I was never there till the change of govern- 
ment. 

1 543. Is the land-tax lighter or heavier in the Company's territories, or in 
the independent territories ? — I understand it is pretty much the same. 

1544. Has not the interference of the Company in the article of opium 
been exceedingly prejudicial to the mercantile interest in the west of India ? 
— It certainly has, to some extent ; it has forced the Malwa opium at a great 
expense to go through the native territories to the Indus, and from the mouth 
of that river to the Portuguese town of Damaun, whence it is shipped in 
Portuguese vessels to China. 

1545. That is done away by the late regulations ? — It is. 

1546. Do you mean to say that the trade in opium is now free? — It is 
perfectly free, by paying to the Company a duty of 195 rupees per chest. 

1 547. What is the prime cost ? — I have understood it to be very low : I 
mean the prime cost the Company pay for it in Malwa. 

1 548. Can you state the price ? — I cannot 

1 549. Is the system of taxation, upon the whole, oppressive in the parts 
of India you are acquainted with ? — I can speak only irom what I under- 
stood . I have heard that it is so ; I have heard complaints of it from the 
natives. 

1550. Should you say, upon the whole, that the country has suffered from 
any excessive amount of taxation ? — I can only say, that I have understood 
it does suffer from the excessive taxation. 

1551. Doea 



SELECT COMMITTEE qv tu HOUSB OF COMMONS. ISCf 

1551. Does the commerce of the couoti^ su^?— That was one of the 
reasons they gave for the commerce not being more active, and a greater 
consumption of our goods. 

155i. Do the laodowaers sufier?— *It ii only in that vay, also^ that I have 
heard it mentioned that they are over taxed. 

1553. But you have no knowledge of it yourself ?-~No ; none whatever. 

1554!. Did you ever hear of torture being inflicted in order to extort the 
taxes ? — Never. 

1555. Did you ever hear of the Company's servants on the western side of 
India exacting rents so rigidly as to compel the ryots to pawn their wives' 
jewels ? — I ne ver heard of such a circumstance. 

1556. You never heard of that having occurred on the island of Salsette^ 
—Never. 

1557. At what rate of interest were the Company borrowing money when 
yoti left India ? — There was a five-per-cent. loan opened when I left India. 

155S. Do you believe that to be still open : — I have never heard that it 
has been shut, I understand that it is still open. I should aay. rather, there 
was a four<per-cent. loan open when I left India ; but nnce I left India, I 
know there has been a five-per-cent. loan opened. 

1559. In what state is the island of Salsette at present, in a state of pros- 
perity or otherwise ? — I cannot well hazard an opinion upon that point ; I 
see little change in its appearance since I have resided in India. 

1560. Have you visited it ? — Yes, I have gone through it frequently. 

1561. You state, that Dr. Scott's plantation is now a wilderness ?— Yes, 
they cultivate nothing, I believe, but the lands are capable of producing 
rice. 

1563. Is that different from the general state of the island ?— No { I 
believe nothing of any moment but rice is produced on Salsette. 

15G3. Are not the natives in that island in a state of great poverty f— I 
am not aware that they are more so than in other parts of the Company's 
territories. 

1564. Has there been any rapid extension of buildings in Bombay ?— Yes, 
the town has been improving very much within the last few year^ extending 
very much, and improving in the style of building and in the roads: 

1565. Are you aware whether the rent of land has been rising ?— I cannot 
say whether the rents on the island of Bombay are rising ; garden ground is 
becoming more valuable, in omsequence of the increase of population. 



JooiSt 




1«B ' 'EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



Jovis, 10° die Martii^ 1631. 



Sib Henrt Fabnbll, Bart, in the Chair. 



GILLIAN MACLAINE, Esq. called in» and examined. 

10 March I8S1. 1566. AitE you a merchant and proprietor in the island of Jav^?-^Iam. 
„ M~7^ KgQ 1567. How long have you resided in Java? — I have resided there about 
J. '""""'''^^- ten yean: I left it a year ago. 

1568. Is it your intention to return ? — It is. 

1569. What is the estimated area of the island? — About 50,000 square 
miles, and the population about 6,000,000, giving about li^O inhabitants to 
the mile. 

1570. With what countries does Java car^ on trade ? — ^With the neigh- 
bouring islands, with China, with British India, with the British possesions 
in the Straits of Malacca, widi Holland and other European countries, and 
the United States of America. 

1571 . Has the commerce of Java increased considerably since you became 
acquainted with it ? — Very considerably. 

157s. Can you state the amount of the exports and imports at any given 
time, for instance, in 1 820? — I have no note of the exports and imports in_ 
1820. In 18SS the imports amounted to about £0,000,000 guilder^ and' 
the exports to 18,000,000, making the whole trade about £S,000.O(X> 
sterling. 

1573. Are articles of European manufacture extensively consumed by the 
inhabitants of Java?— Very extensively. 

1574. Of what description of goods ?— Cotton piece-goods, iron, steel, 
glass ware, and several other articles. 

1575. From whence do they get the cotton piece-goods which the;^ con- 
sume?— From Belgium and from Great Britain, also jrom British India and 
China. 

1576. Does not Java belong to Holland, and not to the Ne'therl^sr— 
It does. 

1577. Are not the cottcm piece-goods sent from Europe the produce of 
Belgian manufacture, and not of Holland ? — Entirely Belgian. 

1578. Therefore if Holland and the Netherlands are separated, as Java i» 
a Dutch and not a Belgian possession, must not the trade between Javii and- 
Belgium cease?— I should conceive so. 

1579. 




SELECT COMMITTEE of mib HOUSE' OF COMMONS. 1^9 

1^79> Do you know the period at which British manufactures were first ' 
introduced into Java ?— The first importations were in 1814 and 181.5, about , 
the commencement of the free trade. The largest importation was in 1833 ; 
it amounted in 1833 to about 6,000 cases of BritiBb cotton goods, the value 
of each case being about £50 sterling, making u total import of about 
£300,000 sterling. 

\5S0. Was there not at that time a du^ of £15 per cent on British goods? 
—From 1814 to 1833, I think the duty was £15 per cent, on the invoice; 
an ad valorem duty of £36. 5s. per cent, was afterwards imposed. 

1581. How did thftt operate ; was it sufficient to turn the scale in favour 
of Belgian goods ? — It turned it very much in favour of Belgian goods, but 
there was still a great quantity of British goods imported. 

1583. Are not the British cotton goods imported into Java chiefly in the 
white ? — The greater part are white or plain goods. 

1583. And they are dyed or printed by the Javanese, according to their 
tastes ? — They are. 

1584. Are you aware that in this country the calico printers have made 
many attempts to imitate the Javanese patterns, and not very successfully? 
— They have frequently attempted to do so, but not very successfully. 

1585. Do you think that, in consequence of the facilities given to the 
calico printers by the repeal of the duty, the future attempts will be more 
successful ? — I certainly think so. if the manufacturer can produce his goods 
with greater ease and at less cost. 

1586. You stated, that you think that British goods could successfully 
compete witli Belgian manufactures if the duty were only £15 per cent. ?— 
I think, with an acf valorem duty of £15 per cent, and no duty upon Belgian 
manufactures, the latter would be driven out of the market : as it is at pre- 
sent, we maintain a pretty successful competition with them, even though 
the duty is £36 per cent, ad valorem. 

1587. If this increase of duty had not taken place, do you suppose that 
the consumption of British oiece-goods in Java would have increased con- 
siderably ? — I think it would nave been doubled by this time. 

1588. Have not the Javanese some coarse strong cotton manufacture of 
their own ?— Coarse and substantial, but high-priced. 

1589. Did they not formerly import considerable quantities of coarser 
goods fitHD Bengal and Madras r— They did import large quantities of the 
cotton fabrics of Madras and Bengal. 

1590. What b^a been the consequence upon the native manufactures of 
lodia in consequence of the opening of the trade ?-~T7ie fabrics of Madras 
being of a liner description, have been almost superseded by the introduction 
of European cotton goods, but the coarse cotton goods of Bengal are still 
introduKd very largely into all the Malay countries. 

8 1591. Is 




G. Macfm7K,E^. 



130 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

LO March 1831. 1591. Ig there any duty upon the cotton goods of India imported into 
Java ?— A duty of fifteen per cent upon the invoice^ not an ad valorem duty. 

150^. Is not English twist also sent out to Java* and woven there ?— It 
is } but not in very Targe quantities ; not in such large quantities as to the 
other parts of the East. 

1593. Have you ever heard that twist has been sent from the Netherlands 
to Java ? — I saw an entry in the public accounts* which I thought to be 
Uritisi) twist, but it was cleared out from the Netherlands. 

ISQi. Is European iron much consumed in Java r— There are about 3,000 
tons a year. 

1595. Does Java produce iron in any quantity ?— Very little. 

1596. Is the European iron used there chiefly British or Swedish P^ 
Both are used, but Swedish is preferred. 

1597. Is it taken there in an unwrought state and fabricated into agricuU 
tural implements? — It is. 

1598. Is there any wrought iron used there?— A very small quantity. 
There are some cast-iron pots and pans from Cochin China and Siam used 
in distilleries and sugar-works. 

1599. From whence is Java supplied with copper?— Chiefly from Japan : 
all the unwrought copper comes from Japan, and the wrought copper, such 
as sheathing, from Great Britain. 

1 Coo. Is not opium a considerable import into Java ?^It is, to the extent 
of about COO chests a year. 

IGOI. In 18S0, what were the proportions of Bengal opium andofTurkey 
opium consumed in Java ? — Three-fourths of Bengal and one-fourth of Tur- 
key ; and in the year 18^9 the proportions had been exacUy reversed, about 
three-fourths of Turkey and one-fourth of Bengal. 

1G02. Is any revenue derived from the import of opium by the Dutch ?— 
Between 3,000,000 and 4,000,000 of guilders, including the monopoly and 
the import duties. From a note in my possession, I And the whole revenue 
in British money, £202.536. 

l603. Can you state what enhancement upon the original price of the 
opium the consumers pay in consequence of this monopoly ?— From 600 to 
S(K) per cent. 

1 C,i)i. T>o you know what was the total amount of the customs of Java in 
Ih^S, exclusive of the duty on opium? — In the year 18S8, the customs of 
.lava amounted to £225,405 steriing, or between £30,000 and £40,000 less 
Uian the revenue derived from the opium alone. 

lG05. What are the staple articles of export from JavaP^Coffee, sugar, 
lice, .Hpices, tin, tobacco, indigo, arrack, and hides. 

1606. Is 




SELECT CX>MM1TTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 131 

1606. Is the culture of coflbe on the increase or decrease in Java? — At 
present on the decreue, I should think. 

1607. Is itDoC in a great part • monopoly of the government? — In agreat 
part. 

1608. What is the quality of the Java coffee as compared with other 
co^ein the London market?— I think it ranks with St Domingo; it is not 
oft very high quality. 

1609- Is the coffee produced upon the government estates superior to 
that produced by natives, or to that produced by European planters P — The 
government cofl^ is superior to tliat. produced by the natives, but inferior 
to that produced by European planters. 

1610. Is the cultivation of sugar on the increase or decrease in Java?— 
On the increase. 

1611. Is there a conuderable opportunity for the increase of it, supposing 
there was a foreign demand ?— A great field. 

I61S. Is not rice one of the chief articles of export? — It was very exten- 
sively eiported in 18S8 ; the export amounted to about 36,000 tons. 

1613. To what countries is it chiefly exported ?^To the neighbouring 
islands, to China, and to Europe, and to the Isle of France, and small 
quantities to the Cape. 

1614. Is it subject to any duty?— To a mere trifling duty. 

1615. You have stated that indigo is also an article of export, is that on 
the increase? — The export of indigo in 1828 amounted only to S4,000 
pounds weight } the production of the island in 18S9 was 130,000 pounds 
weight, and it is rapidly increasing. 

1616. To what do you attribute that great increase? — Chiefly to the en- 
couragement of the government. 

1617. Have any improvements been recently introduced from China in 
the mode of cultivating it? — Some Chinese attempted the cultivation of it 
very successfully, and their example was followed by some Europeans within 
these last three years. The principal indigo planter is a Chinese. 

1618. Is it of good quality as compared with the Dengal indigo ? — Some 
samples whtdi I brought home with me I considered equal to lair Bengal, 
but, from the chests being packed very unevenly, the purchasers had very 
little confidence in it Its being a new article is also against it. 

1619. 1$ not the defect of ill packing one which is easily remedied ? — 
It is. 

I6fl0. Is tobacco reported in large quantities from Java ?— Very largely i 
betwtan l,dOO;OeD and 1,400,000 pounds weight; worth about 140,000 
■teiiii^. 

S9 1621. Where 




G. Madame^ Esq. 



132 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS : 

10 March 18S1. i6SK Where » that chiefly consumed ?— Chiefly by the neighbouriog 

islands : a small quantity is sent to the Cape of Oood Hope and to Siam« 

1622. In those hands is that cultivation ?— Entirely in the hands of the 
Chinese. The natives manufacture it, but under the superintendence of the 
Chinese. 

1623. You have stated, that spices and tin are among the exports of Java ; 
is not Java merely a dep6t for those articles ?— It is, and they are both mono- 
polies of the government. 

J 624. Do you know the annual value of spices so exported ?*-The annual 
value of the spices is £50,0(X) sterling. 

1625. Do you know the annual produce of Bancatin? — ^The prodoction 
of Banca tin amounts to 2,000 tons, worth in Java about £100,000 sterling. 

1626. Are the profits of those two monopolies sufficient to cover the civil 
and military expenses of Amboyna and of Banca? — By no means. 

1627. Is not a proportion of the Banca tin brought to the continent of 
Europe? — A considerable quantity. 

1 628. To what purpose is it applied ? — It is applied to the same purpose 
as the Cornwall tin. 

1629. Is not raw silk also produced in Java? — An experiment has been 
made, but it has not yet become an article of export. 

1630. Does that experiment promise to be successful ? — It does. I broufi;ht 
home samples of silk produced in Java, which were thought nearly equal to 
China silk. 

1631. Does the mulberry-tree grow to any extent in Java? — Most luxuri- 
antly; I have frequently employed it as a hedge for a garden. 

16S2. Is it the white mulberry? — It is, with a good deal of the Persian 
mulberry. 

1633. From whence were the worms brought to Java? — Some from China 
and some from Bengal. 

1631. Have you submitted the samples you brought to any of the silk 
brokers? — I have. I have not got a report from the silk brokers; they 
valued it at from lis. to 14*5. a pound. 

1635. What is the price of East-India silk at present?— The price of 
China silk, 1 believe, ranges at about 125. to 14j. a pound. 

1636. Is the report of the brokers such as to give encouragement to the 
cultivation of silk in Java?— It is. 

1637. At present is there any diflSculty as to machinery for reeling 
and winding it ?— There is very great diflSculty in reeling the silk ; machinery 
has been introduced lately from China, but 1 have not heard of the result 
yet. 

1638. Was that a diflSculty arising entirely from inexperience, and not 

being 



SELECT (X)MMiTT£E op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 18S 

being provided with the proper machinery ?-^It is ; end I thkik^ is e diffi- 
culty whiok will be eaaily overcome. : • :; t '> ^ i^- 

16S9* Areyouawtre whether any European pladters Hi Jliva areitt pre- 
sent endeavouring to produce other commodities for the Europ^n market P 
— Several experiments have been made lately in the cultivation of r^ tea, 
cochineali'and cocoa^ 

1640. With what success has the cultivation of tea been introduced ?«-*• 
With Very good success. I have the Report of the Agricultural Comimttte 
of Java on the first attempts made. 

1641. Will you have the goodness to read it ?-—** Report of the Commit- 
tee of Agriculture on Tea Cultivation in Java. The new plantations formed 
since 1827 at Bintenzong and at Garvet, have, last year^ far exceeded the ex- 
pectations at first entertained from them. As the committee considered the 
Chinese decidedly the most proper persons for preparing tea, they luckily 
picked up two Chinese in 1828, who have prepared samples of the Binten* 
zong tea, and have been sent to Garvet to examine the quality of the plant 
amongst those mountainous districts. According to the samples delivered 
to the factory at Batavia, and tried by them and by Mr. Jaoobson, the Dutch 
tea*taster at Canton, there can be no longer doubt that Java can produce tea 
in ample quantity^ proper means and soil being adapted for the cultivation. 
The committee are trying every means to improve the quality and quan- 
tity, and have sent for more seed from China; for though their present 
plants produce abundant seeds ^om the necessity of taking their samples 
from a number of plants, the seeds have been less available for further culti* 
vation. Their present plantation has sprung from Japan seed, and upon 
comparing their produce with that of some pmnts received from China, they 
are convinced that they were originally from the same seed. There is some 
difference in appearancct it is true, but the chief difference they conceive in 
all teas arises from the manner of picking, preparing, and sorting. They have 
produced samples of green and black tea, ana even of Souchong and Fekoe, 
through Mr. Jacobson's assistance. Their Chinese labourers seem to under- 
stand their business, &c. &c. The tea grown at Garvet and Tjieseroepon 
being better than that of the other plantations, they mean to extend those 
plantations and at Bintenzong, &c. The different phtntations have of course 
been attended with different results, &c. &c'^ (There follow several panu 
graphs about the Aiture importance of tea, and the committee^s eager desire 
to improve the resources or the colony.) 

1642. Are all the descriptions of tea mentioned in that report actually 

frown in Java ? — There are only two descriptions mentioned. Souchong and 
fekoe, and green tea. I have only myself seen a sample of the Souchong 
tea,^ which appeared very good. 

VB4A. Do you know whether the Pekoe is grown in Java ^— I know it 
only from the report, and also the green. I have never seen specimens of 
eit6er» but I have no doubt of the fact 

1644. Was 



134 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

10 March 18S1. I6i4. Was this tea a private speculation, or under the goTernment ?*— It 
— 7 was chiefly done under the auspices of the government. The first attempt 

G.Maciattte,Etq. ^^g made at the governor's own garden. 

1645. 3y whom is the commerce of the country chiefly carried onj by 
natives or by foreigners ? — Chiefly by the Chinese. 

1646. Do you consider the Chinese a more alert and clever people than 
the Javanese ? — Decidedly so ; as merchants they have much more enterprize 
and intelligence. 

1647. Do the Chinese settlers of Java conflae themselves to internal 
commerce, or have you known them extensively engaged with other coun- 
tries ? — They trade largely with the eastern i^nds and with the Malay 
peninsula, and also with Europe. 

1646. Are there a considerable number of other Asiatic merchants settled 
in Java ?— A considerable number of Arabs, chiefly in the eastern part of the 
island, and also Armenians. 

1649. Are the Arab merchants equal in intelligence and enterprize to the 
Chinese ? — I do not think they are ; they are not so liberal in their dealings. 
They take a long time to discuss a bargain ; I could settle a matter c^ 
business with a Chinese in a few minutes that would take me an hour with 
an Arab. 

1650. Are the Javanese themselves increasing their commercial establish- 
ments?— In some instances of late, I think, they are becoming more pro- 
vident than they were ; I have known instances of a subordinate Javanese 
chief possessing property to the amount of 30,000 or 40,000 dollars. 

1651. Is there anydommercia! association called the Maatschapy in Java ? 
— There is a commercial association called the Maatschapy, in which the 
king of the Netherlands is the principal partner. This company carry on a 
considerable part of the external commerce of Java. 

l65S. Has this associadon any exclusive privilege? — It has the exclusive 
privilege of carrying out stores and troops, and the government coffee and 
opium farm or monopoly are sold to them only. 

1653. With those privileges, is the trade carried on by that company 
profitable.' — I do not think it is. 

1654. What do you conceive to be the most profitable branch of their 
trade ?— The opium : indeed I conceive it to be the only branch of trade 
upon which they have any profit. 

1655. Has not the king of the Netherlands guaranteed an interest of fouir 
per cent, upon the capital advanced ?<^He has. 

1656. Has this association been favourable or unfavourable to the'general 
interests of trade in Java r — It has been very unfavourable, especially to the 
Dutch merchants of Batavia. 

1657. J-n 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 135 

1657. In what particular manner has it been unfavourable ?— By ii^udi* 10 
cious shipmentA from Europe, gtutting the market. 

1658. Are Europeans permitted to buy and sell lands in Java ?-^I believe 
they are. 

1659. In the whole island, or only in certain districts ? — Chiefly in the 
western part of the island, and also leaseholds in the native provinces. 

1660. Upon what tenure are lands held by Europeans?— The 'principal 
conditions on which lands are held in full property are the payment of a land- 
tax, or rather property-tax, of one per cent, upon the estimated value of the 
property, taken periodically ; that no more than one-fiflh part of the yearly 
produce of the land shall be taken by the proprietor from the native occupant 
of the land in cultivation at the time of the purchase ; that the roads and 
bridges shall be kept in repair at the expense of the proprietor. The free 
cultivation of every article of produce is allowed, with the exception of 
opium or the poppy. 

1661. What may be the extent of estates held throughout the island upon 
the tenure you have mentioned ?~The extent of estates held in property 
may be about 5,000 square miles. 

1 662. How many proprietors are there ? — I should think about twenty to 
thirty European proprietors, and about seven to ten Chinese proprietors. 

1663. Are British-born subjects allowed to hold lands upon the tenure you 
have mentioned ? — They are. 

1664. Do you know how many British proprietors there are?— I believe 
about eight British proprietors. 

1665. What is the extent of their land ? — I should think, on a rough 
estimate, that out of the 5,000 miles they hold about 1,800 square miles. 

1666. Can you state the names of the proprietors, and the extent of the 
estates which any of them hold ?—l have a rough estimate of the extent of 
the properties held by British subjects in Java, and the names of the estates : 
Pamawachan, the property of Sir C. Forbes and others, 1,200 square miles } 
Chikandie Her, Palmer and Cockerell, 130 square miles; Chikandie, Udik, 
Trail and Young, 90 square miles; Jessuiga, Addison, 80 square miles; 
Bolan, -Drury, 90 square miles ; Koripan, Menzies, Maclaine, and Thomsori, 
70 square miles ; Zegal Warn, Frazer and others, 1 00 square miles ; Bucassie, 
Trail and Young, 6o square miles. Total 1,820 square miles. 

1667. What do you suppose to be the population upon this extent?— 
About 100;000. Sir Charles Forbe^s property alone has upwards of 
40,000. 

166s. Were those purchases made during the time the British were in 
posmaion of the island, or since it was surrendered to the Dutch govern- 
ment?— Many of the purchases were made before the occupancy of the 

island 




136 ^.i/1 BiViloeNeEiOW MST.INPJAiAFfAJR^^i.i 
io March 181^1. island by the Britiah goveromentf wd two purchases only bam been imade 

G, MadainSf Esg. 



'■.J .t» 



since the colony was given up to the Dutch government. 

1669. Does the local government treat the British proprietors with the 
same justice and fairness as the Dutch proprietors? — Pfecis^il^ the saiil^ of 
lateye^rs^ . 

1670. In what condition are the native occupants who held the land prior 
to those leases being granted to the foreigners ? — ^They may be considered as 
a kind of copyholders, paying a quit-rent, and they cannot be removed as 
long as they pay the stipulated rent. I have a copy of a title-deed to an 
estate, which 1 will deliver in. 

[ The Witness^ delivered in the same^ which is as follows : ] 

(Translation from Dutch.) 

• ■ * ■ 

We^ the undersigned, Johan Theodore Leisart and Riick Peter Vermeulenj members 

g \ and commissaries of the Court of Justice at Batavia, do declare and certify that has 

" ^of 1 appeared before us J. D. Kruseman, Esq., director of ffovemment revenues and domains, 

SO cuilders. / ^'^^ "* ^*^ ^^^ quality declared that, according and m virtue of the Resolution c^fthe 

^ ^ / India Government, bearing date 30th Septemter 1828, No. 12, and of the approb^ion 

^ and ratification wanted by his Excellency the minister of state, commissionary-g^ieral 

of Netherlands India, of the 13th November following. No. 44, has been granted 
to John Palmer, Esq. in full and free property, such extent of ground, with the 
dassas thereon, as is situated in the residency of Bantam, between the rivers Onder 
Auder and Tjidoerian, also between the canied Perkaycuisa, commonly called Sul* 
tans Canal, and the high road towards Ceram, known under the name of TJikaiidir 
liter ; and in his said quality further declared to cede, grant, and transfer to the said 
John Palmer, Esq. the said extent of land, and such under the following conditions 
as have been approved and ratified by the said his Excellency, and have been accepted 
by Messrs. Maclaine, Watson & Co., for the said John Palmer, Esq., purporting as 
follows : — 

The cession of those lands takes place upon the same footing and mamier, and under 
tiie same general rights, privileges, and restrictions which all other free allodial lands 
in the residency Batavia are possessed, with whom especially are intended the formerly 
Bantam lands situated between the rivers Tjikandie and Tanserang, and shall those 
lands expressly and in the same manner (as the said Batavia bnds) oe sulgect to the 
duty of Quit-rent, according to the general stipulations now existing or hereafter to be 
emanatea by government, and further to all such other duties as m future in general 
shall be levied by government. 

The inhabitants of the said extent of ground shall, without exception, remain in 
possession of all such rounds as have been worked for the first time and cidtivated by 
them, and now are under their cultivation, being obliged, however, to give one^fiftji of 
the yearly crop to the proprietor of the lands, in the same manner as such takes place 
and is customary in the other free allodial landbs in the residency of Batavia, and shall, 
they not fulfilling this stipulation, be deprived of such lands, to be at the disposal of 
the proprietor. 

The j^roprietors have the liberty to dispose of the grounds which are now waste and 
not cultivated in such a manner as they tnink proper, whether to have them cultivated 
for their own account, or to sell or to rent them, in such a manner as they think to be 
best corresponding with their interest, without being bound as for any term of the lease, 
or for the amount of the rent or otherwise. 

They 



SELECT eOMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 18? 

Tbfljridian be obliged to submit all coiitmeCs witb^heinhaUlaats iMw^ikkChg-or 10 M 
afterwards to be eotirtd upon to the regiatratiDa' bf ffaeTeudent^fjiul it'U bareby 
stijmlated $bat every grant or lease of ground of ivhich suqh s^ regisl^r^on^ .diajl be G.Mc 
aadite^ ,4fi fycto, sbalTbe considered as to have taken place' under the geperiu condi- 
tidns existing on the private estates in the vicinity of Batavia^ and llie retft^ to Uive 
the continuing use of such ground worked for the first time or cultivated by hint al the 
i^te of oAQ-'wb of the crop. 

The proprietors are allowed to plant coffee and to undertake all oflier eorte of eidture 
ifidiout any restrictioa whatever^ and are assured the free disposal of ujl kinds of pro- 
duce thus cultivated, with the exception, however, of the poppy, in regard of wiijch 
they remain under the general stipulations to be issued by government about the 
culture of the same; and they shall be responsible personally for all infractions on this 
head of which the inhabitants will be found guilty. 

The proprietors have no liberty to expel any of the inhabitants settled on those lands, 
but are obliged^ if any reason should be existin£[ for the removal of such inhabitants, 
to bring the case before the resident for his decision, and shall in such cases be followed 
the usances and regulations existing in the residency of Batavia. 

All privileges and benefits by custom and usance allowed to the Javanese Dessas 
people, and granted to the population of government lands, are allowed in general to 
the inbabitaats c£ those grounds, especially the free election of their own Dessa chief, 
subject, however^ to the approval of the proprietors; but if they should not agree, the 
oase shall be submitted to the decision oi the resident 

As long as no other regulations shall be issued, the execution of the police remains 
with the government native administration of the districts and divisions of whidi those 
grounds rorm apart; the proprietor therefore may not assume any right, authority^ 
or power against the existing orders. 

It remains the duty of the population to make and keep in repair the public roads 
and bridges on or along those grounds, and also to transport goods belonging to 
government upon the same footing as the population of lands immediately belonging 
to government^ and this duty is to be understood as well for the roads and bridges to 
be made in future, as for those existing at present. 

The bezars BxAftrries on the said lands remain the property of government, and 
they shall be included in the yearly general disposal of government farms, or be dis- 
posed of on any other way ; the proprieters therefore may not levy any duty of such 
a description on their lands^ or establish any bezar, ferry, or warang without the 
special consent of government. 

The land and house-tux, and any other taxes at present levied, diall be, for the 
current year, in favour of government ; and the new proprietor must pay the amount 
thereof into gover n ment's treasury^ according to the already formed estmmtions, before 
or on the last of December next^ binding the said proprietor himself to pay also, 
before or on that date, the arrears of the land and house taxes of 1827* 

Oh the other hand, the proprietor shall be liberated from the payment of quit-rent 
for the current year. 

The purchasers must pay the stamps and fees by the transfer of this land ; but the 
duty knpwn upder the name of Geregtigbeyd, shaU not be levied of the same. Of this 
transfer shall be made a proper act before the court of justice, in which shall be referred 
to this agreement, considenng the same as verbally inserted in the instrument of 
transfer. The purchasers, further, shall be obliged to have the land measured by the 
sworn surveyor, as far as such did not take place before this ; for their account they 

T must 



138 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



I 



lOMarch 1831. 
G. Machine,, Esq. 



must cause to be drawn an accurate chart thereof, and this chart must be sent in to the 
director of government revenues and domains. 

And such free and without any incumbrance, for an ampunt of 70,000 guflders, which 
purchase amount the appearer in his said capacity declared to have beeii paid in 
seventy certificates of the Netherland India Aditirst, and each amounting to 1,000 
guilders, with the coupons attached to them, from Ist January 1829, to Ist January 
1833, promising therefore to free and keep harmless this transfer duly. 

This sale has been duly notified to the surveyor, according to a certificate granted 
by J. H. Horst, surveyor, on the 10th December 1828, shown to us the commis- 
saries. 

The holder of this act must take care that in the event of sale, ^t, inherftance, or 
any other transfer of property of the said extent of ground, the transfer in the name 
of the now proprietor must take place within the stipulation of six months, ordered by 
advertisement of the India Regency, dated 27th December 1767i on pain of the fine in 
case of neglect. 

Thus done sincerely, and have we in testimony of the truth confirmed this act with 
our usual signatures and seal. 

Batavia, at the City Hall, Uth December 1828. 

(Signed) J. S. Liesart. R. P. Vermeulek. 

To which were added two seals in red sealing-wax, known to me, 

(Signed) P. Van Hoek, Registrar^ 

I, the undersigned, do declare that this sale, according to a resolution of the India 
Regency, dated 30th September 1828, No. 12, above-mentioned, is liberated of the 
payment of the duty of seven percent., known by the name of Heerar Geregtigheyd. 



Batavia, the City Hall, dated as above. 



Batavia, 20th Dec. 1828. 



A faithful translation. 

(Signed) 



(Signed) P. Van Hqek. 

K. Heynis, 

Sworn Translator. 



1671. Is any land held by Chinese on the same terms on which it is held 
by Europeans ? — There is. 

167^* Do you know what proportionate quantity ?— I should think the 
Chinese hold a fourth, perhaps, of the 5,000 miles I have mentioned. 

1673. Are those lands thus held by Europeans and Chinese in the most 
populous and cultivated parts of the island ? — ^In the least populous and 
cultivated parts. 

IG74. Has much capital been invested by Europeans and Chinese in the 
cultivation of their estates so acquired ? — A very considerable capital has 
been invested. 

1675. Has machinery been introduced for agricultural or commereial 
purposes? — Machinery from Europe has lately been introduced: sogar«raills, 

and 



SELECT OOMMITTEB of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. I 

and also mills for husking and cleaning rice, have been erected on the 8|K>t, 
under the superinteniience of British engineers. 

»1676. Has the cultivation of the land been much improved by irrigai n, 
or otherwise ?— Very much improved in the western district ; watercou s 
have been cut, and lands have been irrigated which were thought incapab 
of irrigation by the natives. 

i 1677- Has the population increased upon those lands ? — Very rapidly. 

1678. To what do you attribute that ? — To the partiality of the natives to 
place themselves under Europeans, and to the good conduct of those Euro- 
peans generally. 

1679« Can you state the rate of increase on any particular estate ? — I can 
mention one or two particular estates. The estate of Currepan, an estate 
held in full property, when purchased by Mr. Menzies in 1823, contained 
only 4,340 souls ; in the beginning of 1829 the population amounted to 
G,200, and the increase has since gone on at a much quicker ratio. The 
estate of Singosarre, a small coffee plantation, situated in the native pro- 
vinces, when Mr. Stavers obtained possession of it in 1821, contained only 
seventy families, and in 1825 the population had increased to 1,300 families. 

1680. Has the condition of the inhabitants improved also as well as their 
numbers increased ?-— It has. 

1681. Do they appear to adapt themselves easily to the wants of Furo- 
peans? — Very easily. Thev generally give a preference to plantations 
possessed by Europeans : I have seen them resort in great numbers to the 
estates held by Europeans, both from the government territories and from 
the native provinces. 

1682. You have stated that machinery has been introduced from Europe 
for the sugar works, and for the husking of rice ; has it not also been intro- 
duced for the pressing of oil ? — It has. Since my arrival in this country I 
sent out an oil-press. 

1683. What are the plants from which oil is derived ?— The Earth-nut and 
the Palma Christi, the latter of which produces the castor oil. 

1684. Can you give any instance of the saving of labour which the intro- 
duction of* machinery has caused ?— The saving of labour upon the estate at 
Currepan for husking and cleaning rice is very great, py means of this 
machinery a quantity of rice which took three hundred labourers a day by 
the usual Javanese method, can be accomplished in the same time with the 
aid of fifleen labourers. 

1685. J($it moved by wind or by water ? — By water. 

168& Are there great facilities in Java for the erection of water-machines ? 
—Very great facilities ; there is an abundant supply of water in almost 
every part 

1687. How did you acquire the property of your estate } was it by free 

T « grant 



^4ii^ 



140 .'EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AfFAlRS : ^ 

10 Miircli 1831. grant of by purohate ?— The estate was purchased in l-Sfilfhtm' a Di/tch 
T~ gentleman. 

' '*'■ 1688. Were not very considerable purchases made firom ttie English 
Government during the time they were in possession ?—Very consldfir^Ie ; 
several very large estates. 

lG8g. You have hitherto confined yourself to lands held in fee hy Euro- 
peans and Chinese; do the Europeans also hold any lands on leases from 
the natives? — They do. The leaseholders in the native provinces amount to 
ten or twelve, and the extent of land about five hundred square miles. 

1690. Had you any land on lease? — I held two leaseholds in the native 
provinces. 

iGOl. On what terms are such leases generally taken ?-—T1ie conditions 
of the lease are generally the payment of rent, and occasionally some feudal 
service required by the princes, and the duration of the lease is about twenty 
years in general. 

1602. Are their leases ratified by the government of the country?— The 
leases were originally ratified by the signature of the European resident at 
the native court. 

1693. Have those leases been always respected by the governments- 
No ; they were cancelled by the Dutch colonial govermnent in 18@3. 

I6n4. Have any discontents or disturbances been consequent upon the 
cancelling of those leases? — I think the insurrection in Java may in some 
measure be attributed to the cancelling the leases. Two planters in the 
Dja-joe Juju district whose leases were cancelled, were paid the amount of 
the indemnification allowed them by the government tix>m the Sultan's 
treasury ; they were paid by the European resident at the court, without 
consulting a native prince called Dipo Nigero, who became aflerwards leader 
of the insurgents, and who was guardian to the Soultan, the latter being a 
minor. This prince naturally took umbrage at the money being appro- 
priated without his consent, and he also felt indignant at the leases having 
been cancelled* and the little respect paid to the seal and signature of the 
former Soultan. The Javanese attach great importance to the seal of any 
of their ancestors, and many of the princes would as soon forfeit their lives 
as allow any treaty ratified by them to be cancelled. 

1695. Has not an European proprietor generally, irom the extent of his 

estates, a great many tenants ?— He has. 

1090. In what way does he collect his rents ? — ^Upon land held in pro* 
perty, always in kind. 

IG97. Is there any difficulty in collecting rents upon land so beld^-^I 
have never experienced any. > 

1698. How is the rate of rent settled ?— We are only aWoweit as *iB be 

seen 





SELECT COMMITTEE op «rk HOUSE) OTiCOHMONS. 141 

s««a fay the title-deed, to take one-fiftfa of the piodnee nf the ettUe f^til the 
natives. 

I699t Does that refer to land which you have cleared or irri^ted your- 
self B— On land brought into cultivatimi by the proprietors we are allowed 
to take a third, or more or less, according to the pFodnctiveiiesB of the soil. 

1700. Is not the irrigation conducted on so extensive a scale, that the 
same machinery will often irrigate many square miles?— It will. 

1701. And therefore it would be impossible for the tenants to carry on a 
system of irrigation, upon their own particular estates, to advantage ?— 
Oertwnly ; they have not the capital, nor have they industry, unless stimu- 
lated by Europeans. 

1702. What is the length of a term generally between an European 
leaseholder and his under-tenant ?— -There are no formal leases granted to 
them ; it is merely a verbal agreement. 

1703. Is it the practice to remove tenants frequently, or do they gene- 
rally remain on the same property ? — They generally remain on the same 
proper^. 

17CHk On the lands so held by Europeans or their sub-tenants, does the 
government collect any tax ?~None whatever, except the land-tax or pro- 
perty-tax of one per cent, which is paid by the proprietors. 

1705. What is the conduct of the European proprietors and their tenantry 
towards each other ; are there frequent affiiys, or do they live in a state of 
harmony ? — They live in a state of harmony. 

1706. What is the state of morals generally among the people in Java ?— 
On the estates held by Europeans I have seldom or never heard of thefts or 
robberies being committed. 

1707. Are such crimes common among the natives who are independent 
of the Europeans?— Very common. 

1708. Is it your opinion, that the introduction of European capital and 
of European residents has, to a cert^n extent, improved the condition of the 
natives ? — It decidedly has. 

1709. During the insurrections, did the residents on the European estates 
mix in those troubles, or did they remain quietiy at home ? — They remained 
quietly at home ; and they were often of the greatest assistance to the 
goverhment I have known a small fort saved by die population of one 
estate held by Europeans. 

1710. Do you think that the condition of the natives under European 
protection is in a state of progressive improvement, or otherwise ?— It is in a 
state. of progressive improvement. 

1711> Have the European proprietors any difficulty in procuring labourers 
r— None whatever. 

I7I8. WiU 



142 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

10 Marcli 18S1. 1712, Will you State in what way you yourself proceeded when you'eame 
G Machine Esq. ^^^^ possession of your estate, to provide yourself with tenants and labourers? 
' ' —I found tenants and labourers resort in numbers to the plantation. 

1713. What is their particular inducement to resort to estates held' by 
Europeans? — The secunty they feel under Europeans, and their total exempt 
tion irom feudal services and extortion. 

1714. Do tlie Chinese proprietors experience any difficulty in. obtaining 
labourers and tenants ? — They are generally thought severer masters than 
Europeans ; but I have known many striking instances to the contrary. 

1715. What is the state of the police in those parts of the island occu- 
pied by Europeans as compared with those parts occupied by natives ?-^ 
In those parts held by Europeans, thefts and robberies are very seldom 
heard of. I have known an instance or two of paltry thefts ; of stealing a 
cow, for instance ; but I have very seldom heard of any extensive robberies ; 
indeed never. 

1716. Have you ever heard of any instance of personal violence towards 
Europeans ? — None whatever. 

17 17* Do you think the natives of Java place more reliance on the justice 
and kindness of Europeans than on that of native proprietors? — I have 
seen many striking instances of their doing so. 

17 18. Can you state what is the rate of wages of the natives of Java ?-— In 
the western districts of the island, where the Europeans bold their estates, a 
labourer gets about 4fd. a day ; in the native provinces about ^d. to 2^d, a 
day. They feed themselves ; and they bring their agricultural impletnents 
with them. 

1719. What is their chief food ? — Chiefly rice in the low grounds. ' They 
eat a kind of Indian corn or maize in the hilly districts, and a little stigar 
made from the palm-tree, but not in very large quantities. 

1720. Are they generally well fed and well clothed ?— They are generally 
well fed and well clothed, and well housed, for the climate. 

1721. Has the salubrity of the climate and the facility of procuring fl)od 
any tendency to make them indolent? — I believe not, where property Is 
secure ; at least it has not that effect with the Chinese in Java. ' 

1722. Have you Chinese labourers as well as Javanese ? — We have in the 
western district ' * 

1723. What are the day wages of a Chinese labourer as compared vrlththsit 
of a Javanese? — A Chinese labourer gets generally about three timed' the 
wages of a Javanese labourer. The Chinese are chiefly artizans and liier- 
chants, and therefore, on that account, their wages are higher. 

1 724. Is any passport or license necessary for an European who wiiHes to 
settle in Java ? — Yes ; a foreigner is obliged to apply to the colonial govern- 
ment for permission to remain in the country. 

1725. Supposing 



4 
f 



SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 143 

17^5. Supposing a British-born subject wished to proceed from this country ]o M 
to Java, would it be necessary for him previously to obtain the permissioD of 
the Dutch authorities? — By no means. On his arrival in Java he would have G.Mat 
merely to appl^ for letters of citizenship, which are easily obtained, and which 
give him the rights and immunities of a Dutch citizen. 

172G. What advantage did these letters of citizenship confer upon you? — 
They gave me nominally the rights and immunities of a Dutch citizen. 

1727« Did you find yourself exactly in the same situation, as to all commer- 
cial advantages and immunities, as a Dutch citizen. Precisely the same. 

1728. Are those letters of citizenship ever withdrawn ? — I do not remember 
an instance ; but I should presume, in cases of bad conduct, they are. 

1729. Do they require renewal afler a certain period? — No, they do not. 

1730. What did you pay for these letters of citizenship ? — A stamp of one 
hundred guilders. 

1731. Do letters of citizenship once obtained last for your life? — They 
last for life. 

1732. Are there not also letters of naturalization ? — There are. 

1733. Do those confer any superior privilege ? — They are considered to 
do so. The only privilege that I am aware of is» that a person holding letters 
of naturalization can hold a government appointment, which a person hold- 
ing letters of citizenship cannot; but as far as regards commercial privileges, 
I believe letters of citizenship are quite equal. 

1734. Have you the right, holding letters of citizenship, to dispose of 
property you possess ? — We have, either on leases or in fee, or by will, the 
same as a Dutch natural-born subject of his Majesty. 

173^. Is there any difficulty of obtaining letters of naturalization ? — I 
believe not ; they were seldom thought worth asking for. 

I73G. In travelling through the interior of the island, is it necessary to 
have a passport ? — It is. 

1737. Is that obtained without difficulty ?— -Without the slightest dif- 
ficulty. 

1738. At what expense ?— Formerly it was given gratis, but lately at the 
charge of a few pence. 

1739. Is that passport equally necessary for British-bom subjects, for 
subjects of the king of Holland, and for Chinese and for natives ? — They are 
all put upon the same footing ; it is universally required, except that a mili- 
tary officer of course does not require it 

1740. Are the police regulations such as to occasion a person an^ difficulty 
in travelling about in the interior of the island ? — ^I never experienced the 
slightest difficulty ; I always met with the greatest attention from the public 
authorities. 

1741. ftave 



144 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

10 March 18SI. 1741. Have you vinted the British settlement at Sincapore ^— I have. 
G Me^a^ Eta ^7*^ Were you called upon for a license on your arrival there ?— ^I Was 
' not, 

1743. Did you understand that it was necessaiy for a residtiat at Sinca- 
pore to be provided with a license ? — I never understood so ; however, I 
went there from Java as a Dutch citizen. 

1744. In what condition is Java with respect to internal communication, 
as to roads and bridges? — Most beautiful roads from one end of Java to the 
other. 

1745. At what rate can you travel ?^You can post from one end of the 
island to the other, at the rate of ten miles an hour, a distance of from 600 
to 700 miles ; that is along the main road. 

1746. Are there cross-roads ? — There are about 400 or 500 miles of cross- 
roads. 

1 747- Are there any new roads being constructed at present ?— There is a 
very extensive road at present commenced, at the expense of government, 
which is to go along the south-west coast of the island, eqnal in extent to the 
one at present on the north end of the island. 

1748. How does government supply itself with funds for that under- 
taking ?— The revenue of the island is very considerable ; they have a reve- 
nue, I think, of from 33,000,000 to 30,000,000 of guilders a year. 

1749. Is there any particular tax applicable to that particular object ? — 
No ; the natives are obliged to give so many days' labour in a month, upon 
the same footing as what we call statute labour in this country. 

1750. At what distance is the territory held by the Europeans from Bata- 
via ? — Some of the estates are 100 miles distant, and the great part are in ^he 
immediate neighbourhood, twenty or thirty or forty miles. 

1751. Is that a hilly district?— Part of it hilly. In the Bantam district 
there is rice-land very low. 

1752. How is the government of Java administered? — ^By a governor* ap- 
pointed by the king, and four members of council ; a T^ularly organized 
government. 

1753. Is the governor a military man?— The present govemw-general is 
a military man. 

1754. Are the council military or civil?— Some militaiy, some dvfT. 

1755. Do they sit in the council in the right of their offices, ca^atct.Jt)i^/ 
selected ?— No, they are selected. 

1756. Are the measures determined by a majority of the council* or has 
the governor any particular voice ? — It is understood to be by a majqiil^, y, 

1757. What system of law exists in Java?— The Dutch Uw. They 

formerly 





SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSK OF COMMONS. 145 

forioerlv ased to iiB\*e the code Napoleon aUo ; but it ia chiefly now Uie 
Dutch t«w. 

IJSS. li) it to that law that both natives and Europeans are subject ? — In U 
native provinces the government do not interfere, they are f;overned by their 
owe native laws ; in the ffuvernment territories, of course, by the European. 
There are circuit judges appointed to go round the government lenitorieF at 
different periods to try causes, 

1759< Are Europeans and natives subject to the same law? — In civil cases 
1 think there is a kind of inferior couri, where some of the native chiefs sit at 
judges themselves. Europeans, of course, go to the supreme court of justice. 

1760. You stated, that the natives were well clothed in those diatricts; 
what sort of clothing do they wear ? — Cotton clothing. 

I7GI. latitat cotton generally the maniifacture of the island? — In tlie 
central district it is generally the manufacture of the island. 

17tiS. You have stated, that an individual may reside therewith a letter of 
citizenship ; supposing that individual to die, leaving a son resident upon the 
property, would he require a letter of citizenship too, or would he be con- 
sidered as a native ? — I do not think be would require a letter of citizenship i 
I have not known an instance of its happening. 

1763. Have the Europeans settled in Java been engaged in constructing 
roads and bridges themselves ? — They have, upon their estates. I, myaelf^ 
have made forty miles of roads. 

1764. Do they act as magistrates? — They are not allowed to interfere in 
the police ; the government hold the police entirely in their own hands. 

1765. What does the revenue of Java consist of? — It is generally a land> 
tax ; and they also derive a great deal from monopolies and the privilege of 
selling opium, and from birds'-nests ; also from the import and export duties. 

1766. What rules are followed in managing the land-revenue, with regard 
to the rate of tax levied? — ^The povernment generally takes two-fifths of the 
produce. It varies in every district; but, genemlly speaking, they take two- 
fifths of the produce of the land, taken sometiniei^ in kind and sometimes in 
money. The government themfelve^ take iwo-hftbs of the produce from the 
natives within their territories; but an European planter or landholder is 
allowed ooly to take on^-fifth. 

1767' Do you mean, that when the native holds from the government be 
paya two^fitllu, and when he holds from an European he pays one-fiflh ? — 
Exactly. 

1768. When he holds from an European, does he also pay any direct tax 
to the government for the land ?— No tax whatever. 

' t7A$> what tenure has the occupier in his land ?— He gets a lease from the 
goveribRiient. 

- J^f^fO, df wlui term ^— The conditioni are» that he is to pay a certain pro- 
•• J"^*' U portion 



146 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS: 

!• Mardi 1881. portion of trhat is grown to the government. It is sometidoeK taken in money 
w TT~ p 3t ** fixed rate, which is advertised in the public gazette j for instance, coffee 
G.MaeMtUy Etq. jj ^^^^^ |,y ^^^ government at a fixed rate. 

1771> What tax does the European proprietor pay to the govertiment?'^ 
An annual land-tax of one per cent, upon the estimated value of the estate. 

1772. How is that estimate made? — It is made periodically, I think every 
three years, by the government. It is a property or land-tax of one percent, 
upon the estimated value of the estate ; and for the purpose of estiAtating the 
value, they ask the proprietoi's for an account of the returns of the estate, 
upon which 1 suppose the calculation is made : but it is entirely withio their 
own power, and it is quite arbitrary. Some estates are valued much higber 
than they ought to be, and some much loner. 

1773. Is this a tax paid only by Europeans ? — It is. 

1774. Can you state what the proportion is between the one per cent, on 
the value paid by the European proprietor, and two-fifths of the produce paid 
by the native proprietor ? — I cannot state that. 

177^> Do you conceive the one per cent, to be a smaller tax thaa the 
other ? — I should think it a smaller tax. 

1776. Supposing an European proprietor were called upon to pay the same 
tax as a native pays, namely, two-fifths of the gross produce, would he be en- 
abled to lay out capital in the cultivation of the soil ? — I would not, certainly, 
as a land-holder. 

1777. Is the climate of Java favourable or otherwise to European consti- 
tutions? — In the hilly district it is rather favourable; It is as aalubrious as 
any part of British India. The town offiatavia is considered very unheakby, 
but not so much as it was. 

1778. To what do you attribute the improvement of tbe town of Bntavia? 
— To knocking down the walls which formerly surrouDded it, and to the 
filling up of the canals. 

1779- Does the Dutch government patronize the arts and sciences at oU in 
Java? — It does very much. 

1780. Have they any establishment for that purpose ? — When I left tbe 
island there were six or seven German naturalists em|doyed at the expense 
of government in making collections in different parts of the idand. 

1781. Have they any establishments for the promotion of education or 
religion among the natives? — There are several missionaries, but they have 
not made many proselytes. 

1782. Have you visited Manilla, the capital of the Philippine Islanib? — 
I have. 

1783. What stay did you make there ?— A fortnight. 

1784. Did you visit it for commercial purposes?— Entirely for commeiidal 

^'^ 17M.1. 




SELECT COMMITTEE or tme HOUSE OF COMMONS. 147 

1785. I3 there any considerable import and consumption of British maDU- K 
factures in the Philippine Islands ? — A very considerable. 

1786. Do the imports and exports to the Philippine Islands resemble those 
"TrfJava ?— They do ; they are chiefly cotton goods, iron, and steel. 

1787> Is there a considerable quantity of sugar manufactured in the Phi- 
lippine Islands? — In IS^A, when I visited the island, there were 1^,000 
peculs exported. 

1788. Is the quantity increasing or diminishing? — I should imagine it is 
about the same. 

1789. Is imligo manufactured in any quantity? — It is, but of a very 
inferior quality. 

1790. Is hemp an article of export there ? — It is. 

1791 ■ Of what quality is ihe hemp ; — It is thought of very good quality ; 
it is used chiefly for cordage and running rigging. 

1792. Is tobacco extensively producetl also: — It is very extensively pro- 
duced. 

1793. Is it produced in sufficient quantities for export? — It is ; it is ex- 
ported in a manufactured Rtate in very large quantities. It is, I believe, 
thought the best quality of tobacco in the East. 

1794. Is that a government monopoly ? — Entirely a government monopoly. 

1795. Did you see the nmnnfacture of it ? — I did. 

1796. Is there any peculiarity in its manufacture? — The manufacture of 
cigars is entirely conducted by women ; there are about 5,000 women em- 
ployed in the town of Manilla by the government in manufacturing cigars. 

1797. Do you know what the population of the Philippine Islands is cal- 
culated at? — I have heard it stated from a million and a half to two millions. 

1793. Is the tobacco which you state to be a government monopoly, cul- 
tivated by free labour or by forced labour ? — I did not visit the interior. 

1799. Do you know what military force the Spanish government maintains 
in those islands ?— About 2,000 in the town of Manilla and the immediate 
neighbourhood. 

1800. 13y what means has the Spanish authority been maintained and 
enforced in so extensive a territory : — Chiefly by the Koman-catliolic priests, 
European priests, and the descendants of Europeans. 

1801. Has the Christian religion made extensive prioress in the Philip- 
pine Islands? — It has; in the town of Manilla the natives call themselves 
Christians, and the Chinese also. 

180S. Do you mean to say, that the population is for the most part Chris- 
tian?— -I cannot answer. that question correctly ; but in the town of Manilla 
all the Chinese and the natives call themselves Christians, and they attend 
divine wonhip as Cbristiaos. 

U « 1803. Is 




148 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

10 Mttrch 1831. 1803. Is there much commercial intercourse between the Philippine 

,, ,, "77" _ Islands and China ? — ^Very considerable. 
U.MaaatM, E*q. ^ 

1804>. By what vessels is the trade chiefly carried on? — By Chinese junks, 
by American and Spaniiih vessels and Portuguese ships. 

1805. Hnve the English any share in that carrying trade''— No, they are 
not allowed tu visit China. 

1806. What are the chief articles of import and export in that trade 
between the Philippine Islands and Ciiina ? — The chief articles of import are 
teH, Chinese piece-goods, and provisions ; the chief articles of expo'rtf tor- 
toiseshell, mother-Q*<pearl shells ; also rice, in large quantities. 

1807. Are Europeans allowed to settle in the Philippine Islands ?— Tbey 
are. 

1808. On what terms? — I do not know the terms; I saw several Portu- 
guese and French planters there. 

1809- Do you know whether Europeans are permitted to buy arid sell 
lands there without restriction ? — I know that Europeans are allowed to hold 
land, but I cannot state upon what terms. 

1810. Have you read the evidence given by Mr. Maxwell last year, upon 
the subject of the China trade ? — I have. 

ISIl. Are you the gentleman there alluded to, as the owner of a Dutch 
ship, whodisposed of a quantity office at Canton ? — I am. 

181S. Were you exempt from the port-dues and the presents under certain 
circumstances? — I was. 

1813. Can you pve any explanation to the Committee of those circum- 
stances? — I can ; I have here an answer to a petition which I received from 
the viceroy, which states the transaction. I heard at Sincapore, on my way 
to China, that vessels going from any port to China with a cargo of 4,500 
peculs of rice, were exempt from the measurement duty. In consequence 
of hearing this, I laid in a cargo of 4,500 peculs ; but on the way up the ship 
met with a typhoon, and was obliged to throw one half of the cargo over- 
board, and came in of course without the prescribed quantity on board; but 
by petitioning the Chinese <rovernment I got over the difficulties, and they 
exempted the ship from all duties. 

1814. Was that exemption in consequence of any scarcity of rice at that 
time ? — I did not understand there was any particular scarcity at that time ; 
but it has always, I believe, been the policy of the government to encourage 
as much as possible the importation of rice. 

1815. Was it necessary for yon to make any particular interest with the 
Chinese government? — I merely got one of the Chinese to translate my peti- 
tion, which was sent in through Howqua, the security-merchuit, to the vraeroy, 
and in three days I had the answer from the viceroy, of which I have a trans- 
lation, made by one of the gentlemen of the Company's factory. 

1816. Did 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 149 

1S16. Did you experience any difficulty in carrying on that transaction ^•^Ma 
with the Chinese government ? — Not the slightest. G m' 

1817. Have the goodness to deliver in the translation of the answer?—* 

[ IVie witness delivered in the same, wfuch Wi^s read as follows :] 

'* From tho Hoppo, datiHl the Ith year, 10th moon and 21Hh day, Ysuh, Hoppo of 
Canton. &c. &c. to the Hon«j merchants. — I have received a communication from his 
Kxcellency the Viceroy, as follows: ' On the 'i7th instant the merchants presented a 
translation of the petition of the Holland captain, Fu-lent, to this rtVect: — I, (the 
forfijrner) hein*^;^ on my way from Ratavia (Kea-la-pa) to ('ant(ui, had pnKreeded as 
far as Singapore (Shiiiij-yaspo) when I received an express from the king of my 
nation, informing me that the Cklkstial Dynasty had issued a decree permitting 
foreign ships which broii<^ht rice to Canton to be exempt from port-chart^es, and allow, 
ing them to take away a return-cargo. I (the foreigner^ immediately s<»ld my goods 
on board and purchased 4,50() peculs of'rice, and set sail for (*anton on the -ith of the 
8th moon. On the *27th of the 9th moon I met with a miring wind, which dismasted my 
vessel, and then? were presently more than three cubits water in the hold. I^ing nearly 
sinking, we (the foreigners) hastily threw overboard some of the rice on board, which 
relieved the ship ; but as the rice at present on board is brlow the prescribed quantity, 
and is besides much injured by wet, I implore your Excellency to look down upon us 
foreigners, and to consider that we have come from a great distance on the vast ocean, 
and have met with a tempest which obliged as to throw overboard our mercliandis(\ 
We entreat that your Excellency will of your j^reat compassion remit our port-<hities, 
and permit us to take a return cargo, &c. &c. Now, as Fa-lent*s ship, on her way 
to Canton with rice on board, met with a tempest, thougli the (piantity of rice now on 
board is below the prescribed quantity, still it is right to second the commsKionating 
benevolence of his Majesty the Emperor, and penuit the pi;rt-charges to be remitted, 
as well as grant a return-cargo on ))aying the duties. I therefore address this to the 
Hoppo, requesting that he will return an account of the duties when the unloacUng is 
commenced and concluded.* litis coming tome, the Hoppo, I issue a mandate to the 
merchants, desiring them to acquaint me with the above particulars, that I may send a 
reply. Do not oppose a special mandate.'* 

1818. Are not the proprietors of estates in Java obliged to bring all their 
produce to Batavia, and not allowed to ship in the nearest ports? — I only 
know of three estates on the coast, and I believe the proprietors arc obliged 
to bring their produce to Batavia. 

1819. In speaking of the one-per-ccnt. tax levied by the Dutch govern* 
ment, are you not aware that iu some instances that is double the rate which 
they formerly charged ? — I am ; it wus originally half, and it was changed 
afterwards to one per cent 

1820. Has that been complained of by the proprietors of the estates? — It 
has in one particular instance been very much complained of, on Sir Charles 
Forbears estate, as a breach of faith on the part of the Dutch government. 

1821. Are feudal services still demanded upon all the estate, or only par- 
tially ?— Only partially. 

1822. Are not those services considered very grievous on the part of the 

natives ?— 



130 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

10 Marci) 1831. natives ?-^I have never beard them considered as grievous on the estates that 

I was interested in. 



G. Machine, Esq. 



18S3. Does the whole of Java belong to the Dutch ?«-*A part onlj. A 
third of the island, or perhaps more, belongs to the native princes. 

1824. In those parts are there any Europeans settled ?•— There are; the 
lease-holders I mentioned. 

18S5. You have stated that the Dutch government was generally just and 
impartial ? — I applied that to the last two or three years. 

1826. Do you consider that the conduct of that government has been 
uniformly just and liberal to British settlers on the island ?— The British 
settlers, in conjunction with the natural-bom subjects of his Dutch majesty, 
suffered very much from the acts of the government ; but there was nothing 
pointed towards the British. 

1827. Do you know any acts of oppression that have been ascribed tOithe 
Dutch government, with regard to British settlers and land*owners in the 
island ? — I do ; I have suffered myself from an act of oppression. 

1828. Will you state any of those instances ? — The act to which I allude 
was the cancelling of leases in 18123, which was one of the acts by which 
several Dutch subjects, as well as British, were deprived of their plantations. 
However, in 1826, the lands were given back upon the original footings .^nd 
a prolongation of the lease given by way of remuneration. 

1829* Do you consider that a complete and full measure of justice has 
been ultimately rendered towards all those landholders ? — No, I do not. 

1830. Then, upon the whole, the conduct of the Dutch government has 
not been just and impartial in your estimation ? — Not till of late years. I 
believe it is notorious that the Dutch government were any thing but impar- 
tial at former times. 

1831. To what -period do you allude as the period when this reform of the 
Dutch government commenced ? — Within the last four years, especially in 
Java. 

1 S32. Since that period has ample justice been done to the British settlers ? 
— They have got the same measure of justice as the Dutch planters. Some 
were better remunerated than others ; but I believe it was the intention and 
wish of the government to do them ample justice. 

1833. You have pointed out the distinction between government lands 
and lands held by private individuals, stating that the tax demanded by the 
government from the one was two-fiflhs of the produce, and that the rent 
demanded by the private landholders from their tenants was one-fifth of the 
produce ; do not you think that accounts for the great resort of occupants 
and labourers to the lands of private holders, in contradistinction to the 
lands of the government ? — In some parts of the island, but not in the native 
provinces. 

1834. Would 



G.A 



SELECT COMMITTEE of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 161 

18M» Would it tt all account for the resort of labourers ?— Certainly 10 Ms 
not 

18S5. Is there much trade carried on between Java and the East^India 
Company's possessions ?— A very considerable trade. 

1836. Are there any obstructions in the way of it, with regard to duties, 
or regulations, or charges? — None. The cotton manufactures of British 
India only pay a duty of fifteen per cent, upon the invoice ; European cotton 
manMsctures pay a duty of twenty-six and one-fourth ad vahrenu 

18d7» Are the duties equally low upon other productions of India ? — 
They are. 

1838. Is there any thing like a principle of colonial monopoly acted upon 
in Java by the Dutch government, in giving preference in matters of trade 
to the inhabitants of Java, with respect to duties, or prohibitions, or other 
regulations ?-— They only charge two per cent, upon articles brought in 
generally by prows and native trading vessels j they encourage that as much 
as possible, and they give them every facility at the custom-house. 

1839* When British cotton goods are imported into Java from British or 
otho* ports to the east of the Cape, is there an extra duty charged ?— There 
is an ad valorem duty of twenty-six and one-fourth per cent, charged on goods 
brought to the eastward of the Cape, and on cotton goods brought from 
British India, only fifteen per cent upon the invoice amount. 

1840. Is there not a government monopoly of salt also in Java?— 
There is. 



1 'I ' 



Martis, !&> die Martii, 1831. 

JOHN CRAWFURD, Esq. called in, and examined. 

1841. The Committee understand that you have never been engaged in 15 Ma 
trade ? — Never. 

1842. But you have turned your attention to Indian matters? — ^Yes, a •^•^^^^ 
good deal, as matter of curiosity, and also as what I consider a public 

dut}'. 

1848. Have you looked to the trade between England and India? — A 
good deal. 

1844. Has not that trade very much increased since the opening of the 
free trade in 1815 ? — I think beyond all expectation. 

1845. Do you think it is susceptible of still greater increase? — I do. 



133 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

]'> March 1831. 1S46. Is there any thin^ which you think is necessary to facilitate that 
~7~. „ increase ? — A free introduction of capital, enterprize* and skilly under proper 
■'• f^rawfurdyEig. protection, under just aOd equal laws. 

1 847. Do you not conceive that the great impediment to the extension of 
that trade is the difficulty of findiuj; adequate returns to send from India to 
this country ? — ^That necessarily follows from the obstructions to the appli- 
cation of capital to the soil, and to the industry of India generally. 

184-8. Looking at the climate and the soil, and the situation of Indik^are 
yoti of opinion that its products might be considerably increased and im- 
proved ? — Yes, gradually, very greatly. 

1849. What do you think necessary for that purpose? — I have already 
stated what I consider necessary to it, the application of European skill and 
capital, under proper protection. 

1850. Are there not considerable remittances which are made at the 
present moment from India to England to pay for charges upon the territorial 
department, and also upon account of private individuals? — Yes; the 
exports of India much exceed the imports ; there is a tribute paid by India 
to this country. 

1851. Does not that render it the more essential that the returns from India 
should be increased and improved ? — No doubt it does. 

1853. Do you not conceive, that supposing the returns made now on 
account of private individuals were employed in the cultivatidn of India, the 
situation of India would be considerably improved, and the commerce be- 
tween Great Britain and India considerably increased ? — It would, of necessity, 
produce all those beneflts and advantages which have ever been tbund in 
every part of the world, and in every age, to follow the unfettered application 
of capital and enterprize. 

iSj^. Amongst other articles which India might produce, have you turned 
your atteniion to the cultivation of cotton? — Yes, in the manner I have 
already desc>ibed, for I have never been professionally engaged either in 
trade or a<rricutture. 

!854. With respect to cotton, are there several species of cotton ?— My 
opiuion is, that there is of cotton, as a commercial article, but one species, 
diverging into a prodigious number of varieties, according to the arcum- 
stances of soil, climate, and locality. In every part of India in which I have 
been I have found a vast number of varieties. 

18.05. Is cotton considered as a matter of primary importance in the cul- 
tivation of India? — It is not; rice, wheat, and grain generally are consi- 
dered as the most important objects of Indian husbandty, and cotton a 
secondary one. In the island of Java, for example, where cotton is very 
extensively cultivated for domestic use, but not for exportation, it is a mere 
winter crop snatched from the soil, with two or three months* cultivation 
after the great rice harvest is taken in. 

18^6. Do 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 153 

1856. Do you conceive that the cultivation of cotton in India might be i5 Mu 
considerably improved ?— I think there is no reason in the world to suppose ~ 

it might not. India possesses every variety of climate at all events, aqd of '^ 

soil, I have every reason to believe, that is possessed by those countries that 
afford cotton in the greatest quantity and in the greatest perfection. 

1837- Are new varieties perpetually appearing even in the rude state of 
the cultivation ? — I have never been in any part of India where there are 
not a great many varieties, some very good and some very bad. The ordinary 
cottons cultivated are for the most part the coarsest, because they are the 
most easy to rear ; the finer varieties are very rare, because, as I conceive, 
the people have not skill to keep them up. They are, in fact, delicate 
plants in comparison. 

1858. Is there not a fine variety in the neighbourhood of Dacca ? — There 
is ; it is referred to in a paper laid before the last Committee by the East- 
India Company. It is from that variety that I have reason to believe the 
fine muslins of Dacca are produced, and probably to the accidental dis- 
covery of it is to be attributed the rise of this singular manufacture. It is 
cultivated by the natives alone, not at all known in the English market, nor, 
as far as I am aware, in that of Calcutta. 

1859* Is the cultivation of it extensive ? — I have no other statement to 
give respecting it than that which has been laid by the East-India Company 
before the last Committee. Its growth extends about forty miles along the 
banks of the Megna, and about three miles inland. 

1860. You are aware of the fine species of cotton called the Sea Islands, 
do you conceive that that can be grown at any distance from the sea? — The 
general opinion is that it cannot; and I understood from people acquainted 
with the cultivation of it, that the bare circumstance of planting the seed in 
the high lands ten or twelve miles distant from the sea, is sufficient to deteri- 
orate the quality immediately. 

1861. With respect to the cotton of China, where is the finest produced ? 
— I understand from the works of the Jesuits that it is produced near the sea- 
side. 

1862. What are the chief objections at the present moment to the Indian 
cotton ? — It is short in the fibre, not strong in the staple, and coarse, and 
always very dirty. 

1863. Have any improvements been made in the cleaning of it ?-^I under- 
stand, generally, none whatever. A few parcels have now and then been 
brought into the market of a better description, but in general there has 
been no improvement 

1864. Does not the seed adhere very closely to the wool ? — It does, and it 
is very difficult to separate ; that is a main objection to itt 

1865. With respect to the common cotton of Java, can you state the pro- 
portion which the seed bears to the wool. The coarser the cotton generally 

X the 



154 EVIDENCfi ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

15 March 1831. the more seed there is in proportion to the wooA. I recollect, from ex- 
~~7~. „ perimenta made under my own eye, that I found in the ordinary coarse cot- 
''<«?Wtt, -«?. ton of Java thefleed bearing to the wool a proportion of four to one, whereas 
in better kinds occasionally cultivated it was no more than three to one. 

1866. Are you of opinion that India, in its present state, is capable of pro- 
ducing any considerable quantity of cotton fit for the European market ?— I 
am of opinion that India is capable of producing cotton for the consumption 
of the European market, provided there is a proper application of skill and 
capital to the production of the article, in the same manner as in other 
countries ; hut I am of opinion that the unaided skill of the natives of India 
is incapable of doing it, and the experience of the last seventeen years seems 
satisfactorily to prove this. 

1867. Can you refer to any document connected with the American cot- 
ton to prove the improvement which has taken [rface? — This is a letter from 
a planter in Georgia, which was handed to me by Mr. Kennedy, an eminent 
manufacturer of Manchester. Mr. Kennedy was engaged in preparing some 
statements respecting the progress and history of the cotton manufacture in 
this country; he put an advertisement into the South Carolina Gazette iot 
several months, and at last be got this answer from one of the earliest 
planters of Georgia: it is a very curious and interesting document, and con- 
tains an account of the lirst introduction of the Sea Island cotton. I beg 
also to offer to the Committee another document illustrative of the progress 
of the culture of cotton in America, being an extract from a well-known 
statistic writer, thatofDr. Sybert. 

[ The witness delivered in the same, which was read as follows .-] 

Sir: 

There has been for some months past a notification in your paper requesting a com- 
munication upon the subject of the introductioa of Cotton into Georgia and Carolina. 

It has been intimated to ate, that possibly this notification has originated in some 
one dvsirous of correct infonnatioD in order that it might enter into some more general 
work ; and as I am at present perhaps the only person alive that recollects distincdy 
the introduction of the Sea Island cotton, I have addressed this letter to you. 

It b known to many that cotton was cultivated for domestic purposes from Virginia 
to Georgia long anterior to the revolutionary war. Mr. Jefferson speaks of it in his 
Notes on Virginia ; Bartram speaks of it in his Travels, as growii^ in Georgia ; abd I 
have understood that twenty-two acres were cultivated by a Colonel Dellegal, upon 
a small island near Savannah, before the Revolution. But this was the green leea, or 
shortstaplecotton. Twospeciesofthesame family then existed in this country, the real 
green seed, and a low cotton resembUng it in blossom, both being of a pale yellow, ap- 
proaching to white ; one with the seed covered with fuxz, the otherwithfuzxonl^ODtne 
end of the seed. To enilorc the first introduction of the short staple cstton mto tlua 
country would now, in all probability, be impoawble ; but we may vfrj weH auppofs it 
was by one of the southern proprietary governments, and pOHttly fton Totkaji .tlia 
Hade of which country with i^ngland was then of much higher consideration tfaaoit^ios 
eubaequently become, NorwouUithave escaped those proprietor!, mairy of vrfaom were 
enlightened men, that the climate of Asia &unor, vriiere cotton grew a 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 166 

analogous to the climates of the provinces south of Vii^uia. Just about the commence- 15 M\ 
meiit of the revolutionary war> Sir K. Arkwri;^ht had invented the spinning-jenny, and 
cotton-spinning became a matter of deep interest; in Eiiglaml cotton rose much in J.Cra 
price ; its various qualities attracted notice, and the world was searched for finer kinds. 
The island of Bourbon was alone found to produce them ; and yet the Bourbon cotton 
greatly resembled in its growtti our green seed-cotton, altliough it cannot be its parent 
plant, for all attempts to naturalize it in Georgia (which were many and repeated) have 
failed. It gave blossoms, but it was cut off by the frost in the fruit, nor would it 
ratoon or grow from the root the next year, in whicli too it ri»sembles the green seed- 
cotton of our country. This is all I am able to say, and perhaps all that is necessary 
to be said of the short-staple cotton. 

The Sea Island cotton was introduced directly from the Baliama Islands into Georgia. 
The revolutiouary war that closed in 17^'^ had been a war not less of opinion and of 
feeling than of interest, and had torn asunder many of the relations of life, whether of 
blood or of friendship, tingland offered to the unhappy settlers of this country, who 
liad followed her standanl, a home but in two of her provinces. To the provincials of 
the north she offered Nova Scotia; to the provhicials of the south, the I^hama Islands. 
Many of the fonner inhabitants of the (*arolinas and Georgia passed over from Florida 
to the Bahamas uith their slaves. But what could they cultivate ? — The rocky and arid 
soil of those islands could not grow sugar-cane; coffee would grow, but pro<lua»d no 
fruit. There was one plant that would grow, and that bore abundantly, it was cotton. 
The seed, as I have been often informed by respectable gentlemen from the Bahamas, 
was in the first instance procured from a small island in the West-Indies, ceh^hratrd 
for its cotton, called Ai^illa. It was therefore long after its introduction into this 
country called Angiiilla-seed. 

Cotton, as I have already stated, had taken a new value by the introduction of tlic^ 
spinning machines into En<>Lind. The quality of the Bahamas cotton was then con- 
sidered amoiitr the best irrown ; new life and hope were imparted to a colony, and a 
peoph* willi whom even liope itself had been almost extinct. This first snccrss, as i^ 
natural to the human mind uiulrr whatever iniluence it may act, rcM-alled the nieniory 
of the friends tliey l»ad left behind thorn. Tlie winter of \7>^} brou«;ht several parrels 
of eot ton-seed from thr l^ihamas to (leorgia ; among them (in distinct remenibrancr 
upon my mind) was a parcel to Governor Jatnall of Geor»:ia, fic^n a near rela- 
tion of his, then surveyor-general of the Bahamas ; and another parcel at this sanu; 
time was transmitted by Colonel Roger Kelsail, of Escumor (nho was among tin* 
first, if nottlie very Jirst successful grower of cotton), to my father, Mr. James SpaM- 
imr, then residing on St. Simon's Island. (jeorij"ia, who had been connected in business' 
witli Colonel Kelsail before the Revolution. I liave heard that Governor Jatnall, 
then a younir man, gave his seed to Air. Nichohis Turnbull. lately deceased, who culti- 
vated it from tliat |H*riod successfully. 

I know my father planted his cotton-seed, in the spriiiir of I7>^7, upon tho banks (;f 
a small rice-field on St. Simon's Island. The land was ricii and wami, the cottr)n 
jrrew lar:rc and blossomed, but did not ripen to fruit ; it however ratooned or grew 
from the roots the following year. The dittioulty was now over, the cotton adapted 
itself to the climato, and every successive year from 17^7 saw the l<jng-staple cotton 
extending itself alon<:r the shores of Georgia, and into South Carolina, when an 
enlightened population, then engage<l in the cultivation of indi*:o, readily adopted 
it. AH tlie varieties of the long staple, or at least the germ of those varieties, 
came from that seed ; differences of soil developed them, and ditferences of local 
situations are developing them every day. The same cotton-seed planted in cue 
fi(*ld will ihve quite a black and naked seed ; while the same seed, planted upon 
another field, different in soil and situation, will be prone to run into large cotton, 

X2 ' with' 



156 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



ISMar^ IBSl. wi^ long bolei ur pods, and with §eeds tufted at the ends with fuzz. I should 

^^ have great doubts if there is any real diffCTence in these apparent varieties of the long 

J.CriH^iff^E*q. staple cotton; but if there is, all who observe roust know, that plants, where they 

have once intonningled their varieties, will require attention for a long series of 

years to disentangle them. 

Subsequently to 1787> ^a the cultivation of cotton extended and became pro- 
fitable, every variety of the cotton that could be gleaned from the four quarters of 
the globe has been tried, but none of them but one has resulted ia any thing useful. 
Mr, James Hamilton, who formerly resided io Charlestown, and who now resides 
ia Philadelphia, was indefatigable in procuring seed, which he transmitted to his 
friend Mr. Cowper, of St. Simon's Island. Mr. Cowper planted some acres of 
Bourbon cotton ; it grew and blossomed, but did not ripen its fruit, and perished 
in the winter. 

Mr. Hamilton sent a cotton from Siaro ; it grew large, was of a rich purple colour 
both in foliage and blossom, but perished also without ripening its fruit. 

The Nankin cotton was introduced at an early period, the same that Secretary 
Crawfurd distributed the seed of some vears back. It was abundant in produce, the 
seed fuzzy, and the wool of a dirty yellow colour, which would not brmg even the 
price of UK other short-staple cottons, but I knew it to produce 3 cwt, to the acre 
on Jeykel Island in Georgia. The kidney-seed cotton, — that is, a cotton which pro- 
duces the seed all clustered together, with a long strong staple extending from one 
side of the seeds (and which t believe to be the Braziliui or Pemambuco cotton),^ 
was tried, and was the only new species upon which there could have been any hesi- 
tancy ; but this too was given up, because not as valuable, and not as producUve. 
1 have given the names of gentlemen, because I bad no other means of establishing 
facts ; and now my commumcation shall close. 

Your very obedient servant, 

Thouas Spaldino. 
To the Editor of the Charlestown Courier. Darien, Georgia. 

Extract from the Statistical Annals of the United States of America, by Dr. Seybert, 
a Member of the House of Representatives, &c. ; 1816. 
" In 1789, a member from South Carolina stated in the House of Representatives 
of the Uiuted States, that the people of the Southern States intended to cultivate 
cotton ; and added, ' if good seed coidd be procured he hoped they ni^t suc- 
ceed.'" (p. 84.) "In 1790 the growth of American cotton-wool was pro> 

blematical. The extent to which the production of this raw material has been sume- 
quently carried enriched the nation, and very much contributed to lessen the demand 
for slaves. Prior to 1790, the Dutch settlement in Surinam, and other parts of the 
West-Indies, were considered as the countries from which the manufactories in the 
United States might be supplied with cotton wool. In 1791 the first parcel of 
cotton of American growth was exported from the United States, and amounted onlr 
to 19,2001bs!" p.9-2. 

1868. Can you state the year in which cotton was first imported into this 
country from India and from America, respectively ?— Indian cotton was 
first imported into England in 1790. and United States cotton in 1791. 

1869. Can you state the quantity of American cotton exported annually? 
—The total quantity in 1827 was 294,310,1 15\bs., and the value 9&,359^^ 
Spanish dollars* or £6,330,651. 

1870. What 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 157 

I87O. What is the amount of cotton now imported from India? — ^The ^^^ 
total export from all India in the year 1827 ^^s 68,411,015 lbs., the value , ^ 
of which at fiSs. per maund of 80 lbs., would be £1,068,922 ; so that the *^ 
importation of the American cotton has increased from about 19s000lbs., to 
294,000,000 lbs., and the increase in the Indian cotton is but 68,000,000 lbs, 

1871* Are you of opinion, that supposing the same capital and skill had 
been employed in the cultivation of cotton in India as was employed in the 
United States, that a similar increase in the exportation of Indian cotton 
might have taken place ? — Not to the same degree. I do not contemplate 
that there ever should exist so active a spirit of industry in India under any 
circumstances as in the United States, but to a great degree. 

I872. Have you any statement of Mr. Colebrook with respect to the cul- 
tivation of cotton in the lower parts of India ?— I consulted Mr. Colebrook 
respecting the Dacca cotton, and had an opportunity of perusing the manu- 
scripts of the late Dr. Roxburgh, which contain an account of the Dacca 
cotton : he calls it a variety of the common herbaceous annual cotton of 
India, and states that it is longer in the staple, and affords the material 
from which the Dacca muslins have been always made. I have some 
documents respecting certain experiments for the cultivatign of a good 
kind of cotton in Bengal. They consist of a communication from a gentle- 
man in India to a house in Liverpool, transmitting samples of cotton culti- 
vated by himself, with the report of the brokers upon tho^ samples. 

[The Witness delivered in the same^ which were read asjbllows ;] 

To James Cropper, Esq., Liverpool. 

Dkak Sir : 
Not questioning but that, at (he present crisis, every thing which tends to prove 
the capability of India to produce abundantly many of the commodities whidi we 
jiow import from other cotnitries must be interesting to you, and to tlie merchants 
of Liverpool generally, I do myself tlie pleasure of forwarding^ to you two samples 
of cotton the field-growth of my estate here (about forty miles north-east of Cal- 
cutta), where it thrives so luxuriantly as frequently to oblige me to root it up. 
There can be no question but that it might be produced to any extent over a vast 
tract of country, and to considerable advantage, to judge from its very great pro- 
ductiveness, lliere is, I think, no fear of its degeneration, for I have now cultivated 
it for some years; a comparison with the first year's sample indicating rather am 
improvement in the opinion of the best judge of the article in Calcutta, himself a 
professional spinner. The Nankin colonial cotton is by no means so productive as 
the Bourbon. An intelligent Chinese informs me it requires oil-cake to become so. 
My object in forwarding the specimens is further to obtain valuations of them as 
compared with other cottons. As a guide for future q)eculations> should the article 

f promise to answer^ and both as foreisn secretary to the Agricultural Society of 
/alcutta, and individually, I shall be happy to correspond with you, or with any 
of your connonercial friends, on subjects connected with what I trust I may term 
our mutual interests. Specimens of cottons with their values, as compared with those 
now sent, models or drawings of the best American gins, &c. will pe highly useful 
to us here. 

You 



IJ8 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIKS : 



15 MnrcliilSSl. You are at full liberty to make use of this communicadoD, and of my name, in 

aoy way you may pleasf ; and with my beat wishes for the success of your endeavours, 

-/. CTowfitrdyEa^. Pr^y believe me your's, very truly, 

Henry Piddinoton, 
Foreign Seci Ag* and Hor" Soc» of Calcutta, 
Care of Messrs. Mackintosh and Co., Calcutta. 
NnintoUah, 15tli August 1829. 

We the underisgned cotton- brokers having been requested by Cropper, Benson and 
Co., merchants of Liverpool, to examine and value a sample of cotton received by 
them from Calcutta, and grown in its vicinity, do give it as our decided opinion that it 
is a very useful description of cotton, clean, and fair in colour and staple, and that it 
would now meet with a ready sale in this market at 6^rf. per pound, whilst the average 
quality of other East-India cotton, commonly sold under the denominations of Surat 
and Bengal, is not worth more than bd, per pound ; and that of nine-tenths of the 
cotton grown in the United States of America is of the value of G}ti. per pound. 

Liverpool, 6 mo. (June) '23d, 1830. 

Isaac Cookb. Richabd Tesley. 

Richard Bateson. James Ryi£y, Jun. 

Alfred Wateruousb. Wiluau Myers. 
Colin Campbell. 

1873. Is there any cotton cultivated by Europeans in Bengal P-r-None, 
except as an experiment. There is now under cultivation some Sea Island 
or other American long-staple cotton in the island, of Saugur. 

1S74<. What is there to prevent them from cultivating cotton as they cul- 
tivate indigo in the same provinces where cotton is grown ? — ^There are a 
great many circumstances which prevent it. The province of Bengal itself 
is unfit generally for the cultivation of cotton ; tliat province affords no 
cotton for exportation ; their cotton requires great skill and great attention ; 
it requires great skill also in separating the seed from the wool ; it is extremely 
liable to depredation ; a whole cotton-field might be plucked in the course 
of a night in a country where there are no fences, and little protection from 
such depredations. 

IS75. Can you state the amount of cotton consumed at the present 
moment in the United Kingdom within any given period ? — Fifteen thousand 
bales a week was the quantity consumed at Liverpool last year. 

1876. Was there not a period very recently at which the stock was reduced 
to a very low ebb ? — Yes ; a merchant of Liverpool informed me that in the 
year 1815 the whole stock of cotton in the market, good, bad, and damaged, 
amounted to no more than 4,000 bales. 

1877. lit not the consumption of cotton in this country increasing with 
great rapidity? — Yes, with extraordinary rapidity. 

1878. Do you not conceive that it is necessary that some new source of 
supply should be opened for the cotton required ?— Yes; 1 think we ought 
to be rendered, in a good measure, independent of a foreign country. The 

existence 



I 



J.Cra 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 159 

existence of the manufacture at present depends almost entirely upon the 15 M 
supply of the article from the United States of America. 

1879* Do you think, if all restrictions were removed, that Europeans 
would cultivate cotton advantageously in India ?-^It is very difficult to say 
to what objects capital would be applied under such circumstances, whether 
to cotton or other articles, but that capital would be extensively applied I 
have no doubt ; and I think it very likely it would early be appliea to the 
cultivation of cotton, considering the attempts that have been made to grow 
it, even under the present discouraging circumstances. 

1880. Can you give the Committee any information with regard to the 
growth of the mulberry-tree in India?— As it is of importance that the exact 
species of the mulberry cultivated in India should be known, I consulted two 
very able botanists upon the subject, Mr. Henry Colebrook, who is intimately 
acquainted with India, and a man of great eminence, and Dr. Wallich, one 
of the first botanists that has ever been in India, and they tell me that there 
are three species of mulberry cultivated in India ; the white mulberry, which 
is used for feeding silk-worms in Europe ; the dark-purple mulberry, which 
is used for the same purpose in China ; and the Indian mulberry, botanically 
a distinct species from the first two. It is this last alone which is ever used 
for feeding silk-worms in India. 

1881. Is the mulberry largely cultivated in India? — For the purpose of 
feeding silk*worms it is confined entirely to Bengal Proper. 

1882. Do you conceive it to be capable of considerable increase?— It has 
been increasing: it has never been tried, that I am aware of, in any of the 
northern provinces of India. 

1883. Has the situation of the indigo planters, and the cultivation of indigo 
in India, attracted your attention ?— Yes, a great deal. 

1884. Are you aware that in the year 18S9 certain enquiries were sent out 
from this country by the Court of Directors, as to the state of the indigo 
planters, and their relations with the natives and with the government ?— It 
was so reported in Calcutta, and the report was credited there : I have no 
authentic means of knowing that it really was so. 

1885. Are not the indigo plantations carried on principally by means of 
capital advanced by the inhabitants of Calcutta ?-— Carried on generally by 
the houses of agency, banking-houses, and merchants of Calcutta. But that 
is by no meana always the case : there are men of large property in this 
country who are indigo planters ; there are also indigo planters on this spot 
who are men of independent property. 

1886. Are not the men in this country to whom you allude men who have 
come from that country ?— Either they or their heirs. 

1887. In consequence of the report which you state to have been current 
at Calcutta, that orders had gone out to investigate the relations subsisting 
between the indiffo planters and the government and the nativeSf did the 
inhabitants of Calcutta also make simihr inquiries ?— Yes ; the merchants of 

CalcutU 



160 ' EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDJA AF»44aS : i > 

15 March idSl. Calcutta addressed q(|eries to the indigo plaiiters» and the. jrepl^iQ9 tOh(t^\se 

queries have been: transmitted to me, and I now have tbeiii,bei^,^ap:i4 f^l'^ ^ 

J. Crawfnrd^ Esq. j^^ve to offer them in evidence to the Committee. 




■J)ijl 



1888. Were those queries addressed to a great number of persons.P'^tfl atqi* 
pose they were addressed to all the indigo planters ; but I can only^rS^te^ yrjth 
respect to the replies which have been transmitted to me. I tjtiii^k; Ahey 
amount to about thirty*seven« I have made copies of some of i|ifm# j j^b^g 
leave to state, before offering these documents to the Coinmittee,. (j^^jEjam, 
not authorized to give the names of the parties, nor of the districts^ ip wn^icb 
they reside. ;.n. 

1889. Are you aware of the limits within which the indigo manufaotiire is 
carried on in India?— I think I may state generally that the cultivation of 
indigo is conducted from Dacca up to Delhi ; indeed from the laltitndd of 
about twenty-two degrees up to about twenty-eight or twenty->nioe» i • ;^ . • . 

1890. Can you state the average quantity annually produced for ei^porta- 
tion?— -About nine millions of pounds. • ' v : 

1891. Can you state what is the amount paid by British-born subjects aC 
the places of production for rent and labour ? — It is stated in one pf the 
letters to amount to £1,680,000 sterling. 

189S« Are you aware what proportion that bears to the rack-rent, or Iaqd» 
tax, of the whole ancient possessions of the Company thirty-eight years ago? 
— It is about one-half the whole rack-rent or land*tax that ruined threes- 
fourths of the proprietors within a few years after it was established, and 
which tax, notwithstanding, is the best measure that I know of that^ the 
British Government has ever pursued in India. 

1893. Do you know what is the value of the indigo which comes to Cal- 
cutta ?— It is estimated at £2,400,000 on its arrival at Calcutta. 

1 894<. What price does it realize in Europe ?— According to estimates 
which I have seen, about £3,600,000. 

1895. What is the effect upon the condition of the people of introducing 
the culture of indigo ? — It has increased the rent of the land very greatly ] 
it has raised the price of labour, and of course therefore improved the con- 
dition of the people. 

1896. How does that improvement show itself ?— By their being better 
housed and better clad. 

1897* Have you resided at any time in any of those indigo districts?--^! 
have stated that I have resided in the northern parts of India where ihdfgo is 
cultivated ; but it is a long while ago, and I have no distinct recollection of 
the culture. I am only giving the Committee the substance of the comniitni- 
cations to which I have alluded, the letters themselves not being admittted as 
evidence. 

1898. Have you taken pains to ascertain the state of the cultivation and 
manufacture or indigo in the East-Indies ?— Yes, I have. 

1899. Have 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. I6l 

1899. Have you received a great number of letters upon the subject from 15 Ma 
those actually engaged in that cultivation ? — Indirectly from those engaged 

in the cultivation, transmitted to me by their agents, bankers, and consti- *^' ^ 
tuents in Calcutta. 

1900. Can you state any facts to the Committee, as to the progressive rise 
of labour and rent in consequence of the indigo cultivation in any particular 
district ? — I am informed that in one district, which I believe to be the district 
of Tirhoot, the rent of land had risen from is. 8^d. and 3^. 3d. per English 
statute acre, to 4^. 7i^M and 7^* 6^- ; and I think I may safely state, that in all 
the indigo districts there has been a rise of at least fifty per cent, in the price 
of labour ; and with respect to rents in some districts they have risen four- 
fold, and very generally they have been doubled, since the first introduction 
of the indigo culture. The district to which I allude, in which they have 
been quadrupled, is Tirhoot. 

1901. Can you state any facts as to the number of people employed in any 
district? — I cannot state the actual number employed in any entire district; 
I can state the number employed at particular factories. 

1902. Was the land now employed in the cultivation of indigo under 
culture previously to the introduction of indigo ? — I suppose in many cases it 
was. In the lower parts of Bengal the land used for indigo consists for the 
most part of sand-banks, produced by changes inr the course of the great 
rivers, and on such land there were grown inferior crops, giving very low 
rents ; they were fit only for such inferior crops as pulses and maize, and 
other low grains. 

1903. Does the cultivation of indigo occupy a greater number of persons 
than the cultivation with which the land was previously occupied? — I cannot 
speak distinctly to that point ; but in consequence of the augmented rents 
of those lands, there has been a necessity for clearing additional ones, and 
there has been a vast augmentation in the cultivation and clearing of the 
country in consequence of the indigo cultivation ; consequently an increased 
population* 

1904*. What has been the effect of the introduction of indigo culture on 
the revenue ? — I shall state it with respect to two districts. I understand^ 
that the original land-assessment and rack-rent of the district of Nuddea was 
ten lacks of rupees a year, or £100,000 ; the amount now annually laid out 
in rent and labour by the indigo planters is three times that amount, or 
£300,000 sterling. In Tirhoot, a very great indigo district, the annual out- 
lay of the indigo planters for rent and labour equals the whole original rack- 
rent of the year 1793 under Lord Cornwallis's permanent settlement, being 
£300,000 sterling. 

1905. Has the introduction of indigo given any facilities to the Govern- 
ment for the collection of their revenue ? — Very great, according to all the 
accounts I have heard. I think it almost impossible that it should not have 

Y done 



162 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

15 March 1831. done SO, coDsiderJDg that the indigo planter annually lays out on the spot, in 

rent and labour alone, a sum equivalent to the original rack-rent of Bengal 

J.Cran^wd, E*q. ^^d Bahar ; which rack-rent was estimated about the year 1793, when the 
permanent settlement was made, at ten-elevenths of the rent of land, which 
rent of land was reckoned most commonly at about one-half the gross pro- 
duce of the soil. 

1906. What do you mean by rack-rent ? — Every thing that could be got 
and taken; the rent taken in the shape of land-tux by the Government, which 
ruined three-fourths of the proprietors of the soil in the course of four or five 
years. The Committee will probably allow me to explain, that with respect 
to the land-tax of India generally, the system of husbandnr which prevails 
there is the Metayer system, the cultivator taking one-half and giving one- 
half to the proprietor. For the most part, both the Mahomedan government, 
and the British government after it, have taken the proprietor's snare. That, 
I conceive, is generally a pretty accurate statement of the nature of the land- 
revenue of India throughout. It is, however, prodigiously modified in the 
old provinces of Bengal, in consequence of the permanent settlement of 
Lord Cornwallis, where a real property in the soil has been created, and 
where lands sell at sixteen or seventeen years' purchase ; but no such thing 
as this prevails in any other part of India, where the land-tax is almost 
universally variable. 

H>07. Are the indigo planters men of influence in their neighbourhood? 
— They possess that sort of influence which property gives everywhere. I 
know no other influence they possess. 

11)08. Can you state any inconveniences or obstacles to which the culti- 
vation of indigo and of other commodities in India is subjected r — ^Yes, 
a great many ; the prohibition to hold lands, of course ; the power vested in 
the government of transmitting or deporting parties at pleasure ; the state of 
the administration of justice, and the condition of the police, are a few. 

1909. Have you had any opportunity of forming an opinion as to the 
effect of the colonization of India? — I have been of opinion, for the last 
twenty years of my life, that it is necessary to the good government of 
India, to the stability of the British power, and to the improvement of the 
country generally. 

1910. Will you state what you mean by the term colonization, particu* 
larly as to the class of persons that you would wish to see there ? — Any one 
that chooses to go there, provided the laws are sufficiently good, equal to all 
parties ; that no difference or distinction be made between persons, black or 
white or brown. 

1911. What class of persons do you think would avul themselvea of the 
permission ? — Generally speaking, I think persons of some propeity, and 
artisans. 

191^ Do you «)prehend that labourers would go out from this coontiy to 
settle in India ?— 1 think certainty not to any extent ; but a labourer in this 

couDtry 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS, 163 

country, if of any intelligence, would soon become something better than a 15 Ma 

labourer there. 

lU IS. What obstacles would present themselves to men in the condition of 
labourers going out to India ? — The market for ordinary labour being already 
stocked, in a good measure so, at least; the climate not admitting the per- 
formance of ordinary day, or at least of 6eld-labour ; and the expense of the 
voyage. 

lDl4. Has the condition of the Anglo-Indians in India come under your 
personal observation ? — A good deal ; I have been personally acquainted 
with some of the most repectable of them. 

191^. Can you suggest any alteration in the mode of treatment with 
respect to them which would be advantageous to the county? — lam of 
opinion that they ought to be admitted to every privilege of British-bom 
subjects ; that every situation ought to be as open to them as to British- 
born subjects, or to naiives of the country ; in short, my opinion is that all 
classes ought to be put upon an equality, whether natives of the country, 
Anglo-Indians, or Europeans, being subjects of the crown. 

1916. Do you mean that both natives and Europeans should be placed 
under the same system of law ? — Yes, provided the law be good. 

1917. And all admitted to the same privileges and employment? — 
Exactly so. 

1018. Are the Anglo-Indians an intelligent and docile race of people, or 
otherwise? — Their intelligence is in proportion to the education they have 
received. I have known individuals among them equal to any European 
whatever. I beg to name two individuals, Mr, Kidd, the master ship-builder 
of the Company at Calcutta, and Colonel Skinner. There are many other 
individuals > but these two I can personally speak to^ because 1 have known 
them well. 

1919. Have you had an opportunity of ascertaining the opinions and wishes 
of the European and other inhabitants of Calcutta on the subject of free 
trade and colonization r — I think the best opportunities : they have petitioned 
Parliament for an extension of their privileges three times within the last 
three years and a half. 

1920. Is there any native party in Calcutta hostile to the extension of the 
privilege ? — Yes, there is. 

192 1 . Is that a numerous party ?— I cannot judge of their numbers ; but I 
beg to say that it is the same party that is hostile to enlightened improve- 
ment of every kind} for example, it is that party that is at this moment 
sending home an agent to this country to petition Parliament for the repeal of 
Lord William Bentinck's regulation, or law, abolishing the suttee, or burning 
of widows. The same agent, I believe, has the charge of two petitions, one 
praying that Europeans shall not be allowed to cwonize in India, and the 

Y 2 other 




164 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

15 March 1831. other that the Hindoos shall be allowed to burn their own widows in the usual 

way. 

"nspotf, tq- 19^2. Have you been able, to form any comparison of the wealth, prospe- 
rity, and tranquillity of those parts of India where a great number of Euro- 
peans- are settled with those where there are few ? — I think I have never 
heard of any insurrections or disturbances in any part of the country where 
many Europeans have been settled. I apply that observation to India, and 
I apply it also to the island of Java, with which I was at one time very inti- 
mately acquainted from a residence of between five and six years there. 

1953. Are the European settlers an orderly and well-regulated set of 
people generally ? — I think, generally speaking, they are as much so as can 
be expected under a system of laws very imperfectly administered, and with 
comparatively very little protection to property. 

1954. What do you consider to be the worst class of Europeans in India? 
•—Necessarily and naturally the worst class are people that have, got 
there clandestinely, such as deserters from ships, and others i convicts from 
New South Wales, &c. &c. I have known of a good many cases of the laUer 
class. 

1925. Is it your opinion that free adventurers to India would bearespect- 
able class, supposing colonization were permitted ? — I think a good class 
generally would go there ; but their continuing respectable, or beii^ other- 
wise, would depend upon the administration of Justice and the state of society 
in the country to which they resorted. 

19^6. Are those native petitioners against free trade in India a wealthy set 
of people ? — I cannot speak distinctly to that point, but I suppose there are 
many wealthy people amongst them. 

1937* ^0 you suppose their objections arise from a feeling of jealousy to 
the employment of British capital interfering with their own capital i^— I think, 
generally speaking, from all I understand, their objections apply to innova- 
tion of any sort. 

1938. Not from any feeling of dislike to the English Government? — ^Not 
that I am aware of. 

19^9- Would you propose to allow colonization, without givmg the Com- 
pany or the Government of India any power to send colonists home ?-— Most 
certainly. I should propose to grant to the local goverament all legal power, 
but no other. 

1930. What conditions would you lay down as such to justify the sending 
away any European from India?— I would not permit the gortfniment to 
send Europeans out of the country under any circumstance. It-is an ari)i- 
trary power, that is destructive of all enterprize and security. No man can 
sit down quietly, as long as he has risks before him of being sent offevea 
without a reason assigned. Such a power has the necessary cffiact ef making 

Europeam 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 165 

Enropeans in India the enemies of the existing govemmeat, under whatever IS Me 
name it may be exercised. 

J.Q 

1931. Do j^ou apprehend that the number of colonists might incraaaei so 
as under any circumstances to become a source of danger to tiie permaDeacy 
of the British government in India? — No; on the contrary, I think tbey 
would add greatly to the strength of the British Goremment of India : and 
I beg leave here to quote> for I have authority for doing so, the opinion of 
Mr. Henry Colebrook, once a member of the Supreme Government, and a 
man very eminent. I had an interview with him the day before yesterday, 
and he authorized me to state, that forty years ago he advocated the settle- 
ment of British-bom subjects in India, considering it a safe measure, and that 
he adheres to that opinion now. Mr. Colebrook, I am sorry to say, is in 
such health as not to be able to attend this Committee. 

\9S9. Do you attribute any of the existing defects of Government in 
India to the exclusion of colonists ?— Yes ; I think the law would be more 
cheaply and better administered, and the police of the country would be 
better, if there was an intelligent class of British proprietors and settlers in 
the provinces. 

1939. If colonists had been admitted, do you conceive the present state of 
India would be different to what it is now? — I think it would be a better 
ordered country, and a wealthier country. 

iP34. "Would it have been more easy to have carried into effect the 
different plans that have been attempted for the improvement ofit?— All the 
good plana. It would have been more difficult to carry bad plans into effect ; 
it would not be so easy to inflict very heavy taxation of course. 

1935. Would the various plans that have been set on foot for improving 
the management of the revenue and the administration of justice, and other 
improvements, in your opinion, have been more effectually secured if the 
Government bad had the assistance of a large body of colonists? — Yes. I 
will not say a large body, because I think such a body never would have 
gone there ; but I have no doubt the administration of Government, justice 
and police, would have been more effectually carried on with the assistance 
of such a body of men. 

1936. Would the improvement of the soil and of the manufactures also 
have been promoted ? — No doubt. 

1937. Is the Committee to understand that you conceive that unlimited 
access to India could co-exist with the present form and system of the 
admioiBtration of the Government in India ; or do you contemplate, in that 
cascb' a material change in the form and system of the Government of 
Id^ ^^I tbiak it mif^t co-exist with the exuting form of Government in 
India. 

199^ W««ld it be necessary to alter the state of the law with regard to 

Europeans 



166 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

15 March 18S1. Europeans in respect to the law-suits with the natives? — Yes ; it would be 

necessary that the same laws should be administered to all parties. 

J.CrauifiinUEsg. "' '^ 

1939. How is the case at present? — In the towns of Calcutta, Madras, 
and Bombay, there is an administration of English law, the Hindoos and 
MsAomedans respectively having their own taw of inheritance. In the pro- 
vinces there is a superstructure of the Company's regulations upon the 
Mahomedan and Hindoo law, the Hindoo and Mahomedan law of inheritance 
with respect to those parties being generally observed. The criminal law is 
the Mahomedan law modified by the Company's regulations. 

1940. Are the Europeans subject to this law in the provinces ? — They are 
not ; their case is provided for by Acts of Parliament 

lO^-l. You resided at Singapore some time?— I did. 

1942. Were Europeans allowed freely to establish themselves there P — 
When I was charged with the administration of Singapore it did not form by 
law an integral portion of the British territory in India ; it was held as a sort 
of political dependency. The consequence of that was, that any body might 
come that pleased ; and they did come in any numbers, and I never asked 
any questions about them. I do not recollect that amongst alt the settlers 
that were at Singapore there were more than two persons that had licenses 
from the East-India Company. 

1 9^. Did aoy difSctJlties arise to the Government in consequence of that 
free access ? — I think not. It may be safely said that the Government owed 
a great deal to the British settlers at Singapore : if it had not been for the 
assistance given by them it would indeed have been impossible to carry on 
the administration of the place. There were twelve or fourteen thousand 
inhabitants of all sorts, Chinese, Arabs, Malays, Hindoos, and Maho- 
medans. 

IQ**. By what laws were they governed? — In my time there was no law 
at all. 1 asked for authority from the Supreme Government, and found it 
could not be given. I was obliged to act for the best, and to the best of my 
judgment, as if I were vested with legal powers, but I never possessed any. 

194r5. What year did you go out to India ? — In 1803. 
1946. In the medical service?— Yes. 

19*7- How long were you employed in the medical service exclusively ?— 
I think about eight years. 

1948. Did you reside at that time in the interior of India ?— I^lve years 
in the northern provinces of India, and three years in Prince of Walies 
Island. 

1949. Were you then limited to the exercise of your own profession ? — 
-—Exclusively, and to the study of die Eastern languages, which I paid 
attention to irom a very early period. 

1950. With 





SELECT COMMITTEE » tot HOUSE OF COMMONS. 107 

19Ja With the exceptioo of those Sve yean in your early life, did you is Ma 
ever reside iu India ? — I resided afterwards alwut a twelvemonth in _ _ ' 
Calcutta. '' ^ 



Jovu, 17° die Martii l83l. 
Mr. JOSHUA SAUNDERS called in, and examined. 

1951. You have been in India? — I have. 17 Ma 

1952. How long have you resided in India ^More than five yeara. „ ,' 

1953. At what period ?— From July 1824 till February 1830. 

1954. When did you return to England ? — In July last 

1955. You were employed in the silk trade?— I was employed in that 
trade. 

1956. Had you any instructions in the silk trade before you proceeded to 
India?—! had. 

1957. What was your object in going to India ? — Merely to purchase raw 
silk for the London market. 

1958. Are ypu acquainted with the districts where the Company's silk is 
raised? — [ am. 

1959- Can you state what number of filatures they have? — Eleven or 
twelve, I believe. 
i960. In what district ?— In several districts. 

1961. Will you enumerate them ?— Radnagore, Hurripaul, Santipore, 
Cossimbuzar, Bauleah, ComercoUy, Sardah, Jungypore, Mauldhah, Raog- 
pore, Sunnamukht, aad Gonatea. 

1962. In what part of India are those districts ? — Between the latitudes 
of 22 and 26, and the longitude of 86 to 90. 

1963. Is that in the provinces of Bengal and Orissa ?— It is. 

1964. Is any silk produced in the Upper Provinces ?— Not that I am 
aware of. 

1965. Have you visited several of the districts you have mentioned ?— I 
have. 

1966. Did you, in the c your ti s, ly observation upon 
the culture of the mulberry ? — i ,ve, ig tbr h the silk districts. 
The mode adopted is by cultivau tl mui ry fr ill strips instead 
of the large tree \ it is cultivated it, 

1967. Is it the same spe n 17 that is cultivated in Italy 7 — No ; 
I believe it is altogether a c i 

1968. Are 



Mr,J,Sawtdei'». 



168 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS:: 

It March 1831. I968. Are there not two species of worm ? — There are ; viz, the decee» or 
country worm, and the annual. 

1969- Is the latter the same as the Italian?— I believe it was brought 
either from Italy or China. 

1970. Do you conceive the produce of the Italian worm to be better than 
that of the country worm ? — Yea, in quality. 

1971* Do you know how long that has been introduced into India?— Not 
exactly ; I think some years. 

1979. Is there not a wild silk ?— There is \ it grows on the north-east 
frontier. 

1973. What use do they make of it ? — It is wound and made into clotli for 
domestic use. 

1974. Has it been exported? — It has been sent to this country in amanu< 
factured state, a few pieces for curiosity ; also samples in the raw state have 
been sent to this country, but it has not yet been considered worth theatten* 
tion of the merchant. I hav ea tample of the pods with me. ■ 

1975. Is it very inferior to the cultivated species? — Very much so. 

1976. Is the cultivation of the mulberry and the production of the coOrans 
confined to the natives ?— Totally, or with a very few exceptions. 

1977- Are they generally raised by the same parties, the mulberry ati'd the 
cocoons ? — Sometimes they are, but generally by distinct parties. 

197s. Are you aware whether the Company make advances to the parties 
supplying the cocoons?— I have always understood that they do make 
advances. 

1979- How are the prices settled at which the cocoons are delivered? — 
Generally subsequent to the delivery of the silk or cocoons. 

1980. Do the parties who supply them know at the time they supply them 
what price they are to receive for them : — Generally they do not. 

1981. For what market is the Company's investment generally purchased? 
— For the European market. 

1985. Where are the cocoons purchased by the Company reeled ?— Gene- 
rally at their own filatures. 

1983. By whom is that operation performed ?— By natives. 

1984. Besides the principal filatures, are there any out-factoriesr^—In«Mne 
districts there are out-factories, and I understand that they are from ten to 
twenty miles distant from the main factory. 

19S5. Are not the silk districts divided into circles ?— Thej/have t^n 
since 1827. 

1986. Do the Company give the same price for the cocooob in en^'cif^ 
whatever the quality may be ?— I believe they do. * '' 

1987. Whew 





SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 160 

1987- Where do you reckon the best silk to be produced r—Gon^eft* at IT Moi 

present, is one of the beat districts. - 

1998. Which do you consider the most inferior ?— Bauleah. ^' ' 

1989. Do you know whether the same price is given for the silk produced 
fn the best and in the inferior districts ?— -Only one price is given within each 
circle ; and I believe Bauleah, Sardah, and Jungypore* are in tbe same 
circle. 

1990. What do you conceive to he the quality of the silk produced in Sar^ 
dab and Jungypore, as compared with that at Bauleah ? — I should think that 
Bauleah is inferior to the Sardah and Jungypore, at least two rupees a seer. 

1991. Is tbe Italian machinery used in the Company's filatures? — It is 
on the Italian principle. 

1992. la the machinery complex or simple? — Very simple indeed. 

1993. Where is it made? — That which is used by the Company is made 
at .their silk factories. 

1994i. Have the natives adopted the Italian mode of reeling? — ^Theyhave 
adopted for filature silk tbe same reeling as that which is used at the Com- 
pany's factories. 

1995. Do they not continue the Md mode of reeling ?— For the manufac- 
ture of t^ece-goods they reel tbe silk differently, into putney silk, which is 
quite different from filature silk. 

1996. Is the native mode of reeling by the hand?— It is. 

1997. Is any of the silk that is produced by the natives purchased by the 
Company? — Yes, frequently in some districts. 

1998. Are you aware whether any British-born subjects are at the present 
moment engaged in growing the mulberry, in rearing worms, or in reeling 
silk ^— -I know a Mr. Watson, and two or three persons, who have made ex- 
periments ; but, at the present time, tbe only person I know is Mr. Watson, 
who is engaged in the produce of silk. 

1999- Has Mr. Watson considerable filatures?— >He had consideralbe fila- 
tures in the midst (^ the Bauleah, Sardah, and Comercolly districts. 

2000. Do you know the reason why he has discontinued them ?— From the 
encroachments of the Company in building factories close by his, and by that 
maau pnventiog his carrying on his factories profitably. 

0001. In irhtt way did they encroach upon him ?— Having established a 
factory, the Company built others near to bis, by which they took the whole 
o^^.COCOOiHi arid the produce of the district around him. 

3002. Did the Company's agents use their authority in order to produce 
that rank ?— Tbat I am not aware of, 

2003. Was Mr. Watson in tbe habit of making advances to tbe producers 
t£ tbe oooooni^— I cuiDotaiuwer that question decidedly. 

Z 2004. What 



170 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA APFAlRSs 

IT March 1831. 3004. Wlnt is the Miotint of Mr. Watson's productfon at Hie pt^s^it «io. 
-— ment ?— At the present moment it is only a few bales. 

2005. Does he reside in the place?— Yesj he reudes in the neighbaitfpbMd 
ofFerridpore. 

2006. Do you consider that Mr. Watson*s silk was 'eqoal to that produced 
by the Company ? — I consider it e^ual to the av«vge quality cf tiie Com- 
pany's investments. 

2007. Are you aware wbedier Mr. Watson introduced any process by irteam 
for winding the silk 7 — I believe he was one of the first to introduce the proi 
cess of winding by steam, which is now introduced at the Company's factories 
at Comercolly and Sardah. 

2008. Is the attention of the natives engaged in the production of the silk 
directed more to the quantity or to the quality of the article they produce 7 
— More to the quantity. 

2009. Can you state the cause of the inferiority of the private or native 
silk to thai of the Company ? — Merely from quantity being their object, in 
consequence of the great demand for silk by the private trade. A certain 
portion of material, if wound into superior silk, williiot proddce the sfttoe 
quantity as it' wound into inferior. 

3010. Does not the silk vary considerably in quah'ty according to the ftea< 
son in which it is produced ^--It doesj the best silk is manofactottd in the 
dry and cold seasons. 

@011. Upon what is it that the quality of the silk chiefly depends ?—'t'he 
quality of the silk chiefly depends upon the reeling of it. 

3012. Do you consider Radnagore to be as congenial in soil and cThnate tb 
the production of silk as the other districts, or not ?—I think it is less Do Hiaa 
the more northern districts. 

2013. Were not the native growers and producers ofsilki who had teceived 
advances from the Company previous to 182?, prohibited from selling their 
produce to other parties ?— Yes ; men under advance from the Company 
were prohibited from selling either silk or cocoons but to the Cottpahy^s 
factory from which they had received the advance. 

2014. Was that the case where the advance was very small ^— I bdftn% it 
was the general rule. 

2015. Do you happen to know practically how the advance wte made^ 
were any means taken by the person making the advance in some mearture 
to force it? — Cases have been known where natives have refused to t^ean 
advance. I know one case where a native refused to take an advance from 
tlie Company, and money was thrown into his house, and he was forced in 
consequence to consider himself as under advance to the Chmpany. Thja 
was represented to me by a native. 

2016. At what time was that ?— .Tliat was in 1825 or 1826. . , 

2017. WHl 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of xi^e HOySE OF COMMONS. 171 

9Q\%^ Will you giv? th^ ^^dxn/^ of thct party ? — I do not know whether I can 17 Ma 
give the name of the native, but I assert it as a fact which was represented to 
me by a native of the district of Radnagore. ^^' *'• 

2018. Was he a respectable man ?— He was as respectable as the gene- 
rality of the men who receive advances from the Company. 

2019« Is it the practice of the Company's residents always to keep the silk 
growers under advance ? — I believe it is. 

2020. Was not this practice annulled by an order from England in 1829 ? 
-—It took effect in 1829 ; a local order placing the merchants on a footing 
with the Company. 

2021. Has this order had the desired effect in completely establishing an 
equality ? — Not altogether. 

2022. Can you state in what way that effect is prevented ? — Since the 
order of 18299 I requested a native merchant, who was in the habit of 
supplying me with silk from the Bauleah district, and whose relations 
reside in the Comercollv district, to try and procure me silk from the 
Comercolly district, and he told me in reply, that it was quite impossible for 
him to attempt it, being too much in awe of the Company to allow of his 
undertaking to supply me, a small factory of his having been once burnt, 
which he bad established in the Comercolly district } and he gave me to 
understand that it was burnt from the interference of the Company, by the 
Company's peons. 

2023. Was there not an European sent to the Radnagore district by 
Messrs. Palmer, for the purpose or collecting silk, in 1823 and 1824 ? — Yes ; 
a gentleman was sent down by Messrs. Palmer and Co. to collect silk in that 
district, and he established a small factory for the purpose of making expe- 
riments in reeling a small quantity of silk. This factory was forcibly entered 
by peons belonging to the Company, who cut the silk from the reels and 
threatened to destroy it by fire, when the gentlemen in charge of the factory 
rescued it by forcing the peons out with sticks and staves. 

2024. Was any representation made to the Government upon that occa- 
sion ? — It was represented in the strongest possible terms to the Company by 
Palmer & Co., and I believe that no answer was given, and no notice taken 
of the application whatever. 

2025. Do you know any other individuals, who have attempted to esta- 
blish filatures in the silk districts, who were compelled to abandon the 
undertaking ? — ^Yes, Mr. Gonger, and two other gentlemen, whose names I 
have forgotten. 

2026. What are the districts that are peculiarly subiect to the Company's 
monopoly ? — Comercolly is one, Jungypore, Mauldhab, Sardab, and several 
others. 

2027. Do you conceive that in the districts so subjected to the Company's 

Z2 moMpdy 



Mr. J. Saunders, 



172 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

17 March 1831. monopoly the private trader would be enabled to purchase silk ?— *Not at 

present, certainly. 

2028. In what districts is it that this monopoly has been to a great degree 
broken through? — Chiefly in Bauleah, Hurripauli Radnagore, and Cos- 
simbuzar. 

2029. When you first went out to Cossimbuzar did you find the monopoly 
a close one ? — It was almost a close one, there was only a little silk to be 
procured in that district ; but since I arrived in India it has become con- 
siderably more open than it was to the private trader, very much by my own 
means. 

2U30. How are the Company's residents paid upon their purchases of silk ? 
— I believe by a commission on the quantity supplied. 

2081. By whom is the price of the silk fixed that is. purchased by the Com* 
pany ? — The districts are divided into circles, and the resident at the head 
of each circle, previous to the bund or season when the silk is produced^ 
sends a circular round to the other residents in ^his circle, and they agree 
upon a price, which is afterwards confirmed or not by the Board of 
Trade. 

2032. How long is it afler this agreement as to the price that the pro- 
ducer is informed of it ? — As soon as possible, but generally the delay is 
considerable. 

2033. Do you not conceive that the fixing the price after the production 
has been given in, considerably interferes with the free trade that would 
otherwise be carried on ? — Certainly it does. 

2034. Can an individual who is engaged in purchasing silk for the free 
trade know with any degree of certainty what the result of his speculation 
would be? — I have always, in purchasing silk from the district of Cossim- 
buzar, been obliged to make my purchases altogether dependent upon the 
price paid by the Company, and therefore have been completelv ignorant 
as to what the price would be until after the Company had fixed their 
price. 

2035. Are the Company's residents allowed to purchase silk on their own 
account, or to act as agents for others ?— Yes ; after they have supplied the 
quantity required by the Company. 

2036. Have you ever so employed them ? — I have. 

2037. What commission do they charge? — I cannot speak positively to 
the amount of the commission paid by the Company, but I believe it is two 
and a half per cent. In the case of private individuals it is an agreement 
betw een the parties. 

2038. Was there a rise in the price of silk from the year 1814 to the year 
1827 ? — Yes ; a gradual rise, and a very considerable one. 

2039. Did 



Mr. J. 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 173 

20S9. Did the produce from India increase consequently upon that rise ? 17 Ms 
— Not in proportion to the rise of price. 

2040. Supposing the trade bad been free» do you conceive that increase 
would have kept pace in some measure with the rise of price ?— I think it 
certainly would. 

2041. Has there been a rise in the rent of land and the wages of labour 
consequent upon the increased price of the silk ?— -Mulberry land has risen in 
rent ; but land, generally speaking, has risen little or nothing. 

20i2. Do you conceive that the Zemindars are interested in maintaining 
the monopoly ? — Certainly, so far as that by upholding the Company's system 
they are enabled to let their land at a higher rate, in consequence of the 
increased prices given by the Company for silk. 

2043. Do you conceive that the actual producer is benefited to the full 
extent of the enhanced price for silk ; for instance, the native who supplies 
the cocoons? — ^No; I do not think he makes more profit by rearing his 
cocoons than he did when the silk was at a much lower price than it is 
now ; I mean, not in proportion to the price that silk bears at the present 
time. 

2044. Does that arise from the mode in which the price of silk is fixed ? — 
It is dependent altogether upon the system by which silk is reared. I con- 
ceive that, upon a different system, silk would be produced at a much lower 
price, and that the rearer of the cocoon would be as well paid. 

2045. Were not orders issued in the year 1827 to reduce the price that th^ 
Company paid for silk ? — ^Yes, orders were received by the Board of Trade in 
Calcutta, for that purpose. 

2046. Has that reduction taken place accordingly ? — ^Not to the full extent, 
but some reduction has taken place. 

2047. Was that the period when the silk districts were divided into circles ? 
—It was. 

2048. Can you state the reason why that division into circles took place ? 
—In consequence of the competition between the residents at the different 
factories to obtain the greater quantity of silk. 

2049. Have you any document which would illustrate this subject ? — I 
have a copy of a circular which was issued by the Board of Trade in Calcutta, 
in 1S27, to all the residents in the silk districts ; and in consequence of this 
circular the division into circles took place. 

2050. From whom did you obtain this ? — I beg leave to decline to answer 
that question. 

[The same was delivered in, and read asjblkms :] 



(Circular, 



174 EVIDENCE ON EAST INDIA AITAIRS : 



Mr. J. Samukrt. 



(Circulv, No. 186.) 

To ■ Esq. Resideat at — ■ 

Sik: 

It is with grsAt r^ret that we have witnessed during some years.pa^t the inoreased 
and iocreasiug price paid for raw silk provided at your factory. Our injunctions have 
been constant and uaifonn, that these prices should be reduced, risen as they have 
done progressively to a he^t which the occasional unproductiveness of bunds, and 
the actual state of the market, do not warrant ; and this has Occurred at a time too 
when the selling rates of the article at home bare gone on to decrease, until a very 
great and ruinoui depression has been experiencod, as appears from the letter dated 
9th August 1826, from the Honourable Court of Directors. The profit and loss 
account on the March sale of 1826 shows a loss on that sale to the large amount 
of £30,252, thereby reducing ^the out-turn of the invoice to 1/. 8d„ fd. per ncca 
rupee. 

2d. It is now high time that the residents should make a general, united, and rigorous 
stand against the evil which has occurred, so ae to bring back the price of raw silk 
to the kvel at which it stood in the years 1815-16, or to the annual average rate 
of about 10 r. 8 a. per seer, comprehending the cocoon cost of the silk, and the <4iaiges 
of winding it. The Honourable Court, in their oommerdal general letter dated 19th 
March 1822, give the following statement of the invoice cost and charges per bale of 
Bei^al filature lilk for the previous seven years, biz. 
S-Sitpta. 

1815 838 per bale 

1816 840 — 

1817 941 — 

1818 ...™ 983 — 

1819 1,046 — 

1820 „ 1,100 — 

1821 1,178 — 

Being per seer of silk, in 1815, at the rate of lOr. 7a. 7 p- ; and in 1821, 14r. 
l\a.7 p- per seer; an increase having taken place between the two periods of 4 r.4oi. 
per seer. 

3. We have caused a similar statement, in continuation, to be drawn up, of the 
average costs and charges per bale of filature silk consigned to England, from the year 
1822 to 1826, both indusive, by which the following result is exhibited : 

S. Rupeet. *. a. p. 

18'22 1,165 per bale 14 8 

1823 1,162 ~ 14 8 

1824 1.164 — 14 8 

1825 1,207 — 15 1 4 

1826 1,153J — 14 6 6 

4th. The Honourable Court, in their letter of the 17th May 1826, paragraph 22d, 
intimated their confident expectation that a considerable, and they trust a permanent, 
diminution in the cost of the silk will ensue, as a consequence of the extended culti- 
vation of the mulberry ; and as conducive to such reduction in the cost of the article, 
they observe in the next paragraph, " We trust that the absolute extinction of compe- 
tition among the residents, by each confining purchases strictly within his own 
boundary, has by this time been fully effected." We should be glad to have been 
able to aSbrd complete confirmation to the Honourable Court of the abovo-men- 

tiooed 



10 7 


f 


11 12 





11 11! 





\'i 4 


7 


in 1 


'2 


13 12 





M 11 


6 



I 



SELECT OOMMlTTfifi Of tnt HOUSB OF COMMONS. 175 



tion^ jiist expectiitiony but thftt a late reprewntaCioii of aoeroachment on hu au- 17 Mai 
nincrs, made by one of tlie residents against fais neighbour^ and which has not been — 

satisfactorily refuted, forbids us from doing so. That every resideOit should strictly Mr. J, 
confine himself widiin his own limits, and scrupulously abstain from trespassing on 
the resources of his neighbour, is so primary and palpable an obli^tion of duty, 
and its infringement evinces so much disregard to the interests of me Honourable 
Company, that we are determined to bring any future instance of disobedience in 
this respect, but which we hope may not occnr, to the special notice of Government 

5th. The next and most inrmortant duty of a coauBercial resideiit is to confine the 
rates paid for eocoons and silk to what will afford a reasonable profit, and no aiore, 
to the r}'0ts, ivho rear the cocoons, and to the peons who vend them : that such 
rates have been greatly exceeded of late years we have abundant reason to believe ; 
and that a speedy stop should be put to thb practice, the discontinuanoe of com- 
petition in this niarket, m consequence of a ruinous market in Europe, manifestly 
invites to. 

f)th. From the statenit?rtt contained in paragraph 3 of this letter, it appears that the 
avorii<::e cost of silk exported to England in 18z5 amounted to the very high rate of 
1 ,'207 5ficca rupees per bale, exceeding by 29 rupees per bale the highest oust of any 
preceding year ; and thoagh the exportation of 1 826 exhibits some reduction m price 
from that of the preceding year, yet much remains to be acoomplisbed in this respect : 
l,!.*^?} sicca rupees, tlie average cost of the silk per bale in 1826, making its cost 
amount to the high rate of 14 r. 6 a. 8p, per seer. 

7th. As we have observed before, the average annual cost per seer of silk of your 
investment must be reduced to what it was in the years 1815-16. The rise that has 
taken ])lace up to the present time since the year 1816, is a forced and unnatural rise ; 
and although it may be urged that the state of the moribet, both in Europe and in 
India, during a part of the intervening period may have warranted the grant of some 
increase in the price of silk, yet the present state of things in both countries is such, 
and the article is in so little demand, that the time is fully arrived for bringing back 
the price of silk again to its fair and proper level. 

8th. It will therefore be your duty to explain these matters fully to the peons and 
rearers of cocoons employed under your factory, so as to prepare their minds to 
submit without mumiunng to the prices you may deem it necessary under these orders 
to detemiine on granting them for the sdk and cocoons produced during the several 
bunds of the year, impressing it at the same time upon them as a matter of absolute 
necessity, tliat they will seek in vain to elude the operation of the system now about 
to be established, by carrying their cocoons away from their own factory, in order 
to deliver them at a neighbouring factory, for the sake of obtaining increased prices, 
because they will, by so doing, inevitably meet with disappointment, it being our firm 
determination not to allow any resident to give a higher price for silk or cocoons 
than his neighbouring resident within the same circle of locality ; and should any 
resident, contrary to his duty and all just expectation, be found to countenance 
and encourage such a proceeding, his conduct will be noted with merited animad- 
version. 

9th. The maintenance of an uniformity of price is a part of the detail which we 
now proceed to lay down, and to which we require your implicit and most undeviating 
attention, because on the exact observance of it depends the success we have every 
reason to expect as the result of our present orders and endeavours for reducing the 

that no one resident shall be 
»ouring residents within the 
same circle. 

lOdLllie 



reason to exJMrclr as llic icrautfc wi \j\Mi. |/i«;gdii. \/i\A^ia auiu ^ 

price of silk to its ledtimate and natural level ; namely, tl 
supposed to give a liigher price for silk than the neigfab< 



176 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

lOtb. The circles may be thus described, proceeding from North to South :-~ 
Ist. 2d. 3d. 

Malda, Bahah. ComercoUy. 

Rutigpore. Surdah. Santipore. 

Bauleah. Jungypore. Hurnpatd. 

Surdah. Cossimbuzar. Radnapore. 

Jungypore. Soonamooky. 

llth. Shortly before a bund shall come to maturity, and when the circumstances 
of its produce, good, bad or indifferent, aa well as the state of the market, shall 
have been ascertained, the resident placed at the head of the circle shall commu< 
nicate by a circular to the other residents within it the state of things in his aurungs, 
and mention the price he proposes to pay per maund of cocoons, or per seer of 
silk; the other residents each to indorse his opinion on the circular, and in case of 
objection, stating his reasons for thinking the prices ought to be more or less ; the 
majority being of the same opinion, to determine the result, to be communicated to 
us without delay, who will pronounce their final judgment of approbation or other- 
wise. 

12tb. We inclose a statement showing, as far as the reports of the residents entered 
on our records will admit, the prices settled for silk of the several bunds during the 
years 1815 and 1816, before adverted to, at the factories enumerated. We desire that 
these rates may be steadily kept in view, as those to which it is our earnest desire to 
bring them back in future. 

13th. The operation of these orders will commence to have effect with the settle- 
ment for the March bund 1827. 

We are your most obedient servants. 
Fort WaUiam, 27th AprU 1827. (Signed) G. Udnev, 

CuAS. Mackenzie. 

Believed to be a true copy, 

Joshua Saunders, Jun. 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE of COMMONS. 177 



Statement showing die Prices settled t'ur each Bund duriii;L; the Years 1815 and 1816»at Uie foUoviiiVj^ 

Residencies. 



BUNDS, 1815. 





January. 
per Seer, 


March. 


April. 




ptr Seer. 


per Seer. 


Bauleah .... 


— — i 


— 


— 


Comcrcolly . . 


„^,^ 


5/ 7 i2j 


6/3/3 


Cossimbuzar . 


1 


7/ 7/ 7-34 


6/ 15 


Hurripaul . . . 


"* 


7/9/ 8 




Jungypore . . 


6/ 10/ 9} 


6/5/ nf 





Maldah 


• — 


5/4/8 


6/ o/ ij 


Soonamooky . 


— 








June. 


July. 


September. 


October. 
per Seer, 


November. 


per Seer* 


ptr Seer. 


per Seer* 


per Seer. 


6/ 11/ 6 


6/ 11/ 6 


— 


7/ 3/ 10 


7/6/ I 




7/ 13/4-75 




~~" 


9 1 5-37 


— 


6/ 13 


— 


9/ 




6/ 6/ 111 


— 


— 




7/ 12/ 6J 


6/ 10/ u 


7/ 0/ 11 


— 


8/ 9/ 6 


8/ 1/7 




6/ 5/ 9-76 


— 


9/5/ 1 


9/ 1/ 5-37 



BUNDS, 1816. 



January. 



March. 



• . • • 



Bauleah 
ComcrcoUy . . 
Cotsimbuzar . 
Hurripaul . . . 
Jungypore .. 

Maldah 

Soonamooky . 



per Seer. per Seer. 

- ' 7/ 15 

I 

- '7/6 

— 9/9/041 

— 9/11/2 

8/ 13/ 2 8/ 1/ "f 

' - 7/11' 5i 



April. 



per Seer. 

7/ 12 

6/ 5/ 7A 
9/ 1/ 5.37 



June. 

per Seer, 
11 12 

7/ 1/ 94 



— ; 7/ 13/ 10? 

7/ 9/ I 7/ 11/ H 






July. 



September. 



Octol)cr. 



per Seer. 

7/ 12 



per Seer. 

7/ 14 



7/ 1/ 9J 
9/ 3/ 4-34 i — 



November. 



per Seer. j>cr Seer. 

I 

8/ I 8/6 
8/ 5/ 2| ; 8/ 3/ H 

I 

— ! 10/ 8/ 4.96 
8/ 8 

8/ 13/ 6 

- 8/ 14/ 4l 



N.D. — No Silk provided from Bauleah in the year 1815. 

Prices settled at Cossimbuzar are for 76 S' W' to the Seer, but the price is calculated upon 72. 1 1. 7. per Seer, as 

at all the other Residenoes. 



Fort William, 
27th April 1837. 



(Signed) 



2A 



W- NESBIT, 
Secretary. 



ITS 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



.Vr. J. Sttmrnitrt. 



1 : >Urvh 1^1. *^>51. Have you any other document which would illustrate this point?—* 

I have an extract from Mr. Bellas review of the external commerce of Ben- 
gal, from IS'^'I-^ to lS29-dO» published by Mr. Bell, an officer in the custom- 
house, and I believe it to be authentic. 

^^XS"^* Is it printed ? — It was printed in Calcutta. Mr. Bell is an officer in 
the custom-house, and his work is dedicated to Mr. Siddons, the collector, 
and published by his authority. 

^\53. Could any work of that kind be published at Calcutta without the 
sanction of the Government? — It is sanctioned by Mr. Siddons, the collector. 

[Tie nitmess de&venrd m ike same^ vchich vcas read asJbUofws :] 

'' It » sufideody ki:k>wii that the tnde in Bei^gal silk, both in its raw and manu- 
rjkcturvd state, ha» been almo^^t entirelj en^:n»sed by the Company, or at least that 
(vrtKoa which ull< to the lot ot" prtrate individuals has been so much enhanced by the 
{vwvrful rokilitie^ oc :he former, that as an object of commercial gain it is impossible 
to :frCaxid thie test cf cumpfdtzocu 

- It sc viidlcult to foresee the resuh which is likely to crown this system of miprofit- 
ib^e tr;i]&c. pursuied with so much avidity by the agents of the Company, who being 
-vfuuner&Kd ta prvror^m :o the t^uuxtity oif raw material provided, have at once the 
vc«er vt cn£$hii«c <ul prWa:e enfierprisK. aoi by setting up a strong competition among 
:2:e«n2s^v^^ ba^^ f:&i:<ed the prme ccst to double of what it ought and might be. 

' TVf vVcstiien^iciL :c personal ^[ain has plainly, iu tins instance, introduced the 
*Tfvs(C roTsil ^-jo;:«euuieQo»v xmi will ohiautely lead to the total annihilation of so valuable 
& :r;&3cOL ^c liciiia v-*.*mnBen>f. 



\iv rienfO.'ce :c » : :c tue. would it not be judkrious on the part of the Com- 
^•ij!\ . ^OfC JJY 3wreiy ^warnriinrw^ ;i]t^ eaLv.4xfi$iv^ tramc to enrich their servants., who are 
v^"«fvit lajc^fcately paai by ixed iIIo«.i3ces. without having recourse to thb system to 
'^ vfvl :iit rieu: ccQmussKca;^^ xad ill the rockets ot* a horde of avaricious gomastahsand 
oecenftsucs'— « :aLc :t sec be -uiiiincurs. 1 sav. co prefer farming out tlieir filatures to 
;4r? aiCtfrrcTje, wieii tie OcmpoLy mi^t purvhase the produce in the Calcutta 
.*ae bujf .*( Mbiki :c ic« co>cs them. jLad woukl then cocfe^itute a solid ipe<fium 
ctaaoest.* Eiirvw, wid^jc :: aw«r fonts but a haraidoife^ speculativ^n f*' 



-I 



*ii ^t.i.'* 



•^:J4v 1>? ycc cccoHv? thdi: the Cccnpany's resident agents are generally 
£wc ^uc^^» cc silk r — Certaislj coc Then? may be some of them thai 
xrrcerscuic .^ ict ^eosenllT traer are i^7tonct« I believe, of silk altogether. 



,>-.?^ 



. IX* ytni ircv a=T icscioces oi which residents have been appointed 
re ziac 3ecitr=mHic ^avjt^'beea uken fhxn other? f — Yes» the late postmaster- 
cprerii was rxiariffred cdv a sacrt ;:ae Jio to a silk residencv. 

i;5:. IV y ,ni iicw aay utscinces cf sal: averts uken from the one de- 
wrrmpit imi jizz re ne ccier ^ — ^\>k 1 kcx>w an titstance where either a salt 
^ 1 sutaecTf W!iErc w:e rxssferrec to :ie silk department. 

i*.V^ ^pcn micm, jp^cccl't ice* ve bcs^cet^s ot" cvJlecting and mans- 
r TIC rre sik rsienllr le^ui^e ^— ITrvc tie he:iJ n-itiw of the establishmeiit. 

A-^:*. :$ ne i«c lair-- i jrcrr«c;c: ;.>ic? cr" :h^ quility of the sUk? — 
- r-inrrcc iirssw-r -.t :ie t-:ci< rt u« zoc ra::v\K : they ir< uo(« of less sow 

^.\?oi. Do 



Mr. J 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 179 

9059* Do you coDceive that the raw silk of Bengal has deteriorated or 1*7 A! 
improved in quality lately ? — Deteriorated in quality. 

2060. Has the quantity exported increased since 1824? — It has. 

2061. To what cause do you attribute that ? — To the opening of the trade. 

2062. Have not the duties in England been diminished also ? — They have. 

2063. What are the principal faults of the Indian silk ? — Its foulness, 
unevenness, and want of staple. 

2064. What do you conceive would be necessary to improve the staple of 
the Indian silk ? — Greater attention in cultivating the mulberry, in rearing 
the worm, and in reeling and manufacture of the article. 

2065. Can you state the reason why Europeans do not engage largely in . 
the manufacture of silk in Bengal, as they do in that of indigo? — The Com- 
pany engross at present, the whole of the silk districts, and for that reason 
they have not entered into the trade. 

2066. Do you conceive that the competition which goes on Ibetween the 
Company's residents, and the private traders is a fair or an unfair one ? — 
Unfair, so far as that they are not placed upon the same footing. 

2067. Do you mean that they have not the same capital ? — They have not 
the same power. 

2068. Do you conceive, that if Europeans were to engage largely in the 
production of silk, its quality would be improved? — Certainly it would. 

2069. Do you conceive that Europeans would be induced to enter upon 
such a speculation without greater security for property and persons than 
exists at the present moment in India? — I think they would not : the want 
of greater security has been one of the reasons of their not having heretofore 
entered into the silk business. 

2070. Are you of opinion that the Indian silk, under the management of 
Europeans, might or might not be rendered as good as the Italian silk ? — 
As good as the average quality of the Italian, and in some cases equal to good 
Italian. 

2071. Do you know any instances of silk of a good quality having been 
imported into this country from India ? — Bales have been sold of East-India 
silk in London, realizing nearly the same value at the same period as that 
which the best Italian fetched. 

2072. Do you know the relative prices at which the Company's silk and 
the private traders* silk have been sold at the East-India House ? — Relatively 
speaking, considering the quality, they have sold equally well. 

2073. Which is the best quality ?— -The Company's is generally the best 
quality, and in consequence sells at a higher price. 

2074. Can you state why the Company's silk is of the best quality ? — 
From greater attention being paid at the Company's factories than at private 
factories, the natives' object being to produce quantity not quality. 

2 A 2 2075. Supposing 



180 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

17 March 1831. W75. Supposing the private trader to be allowed to produce silk iu Bengal 
~~ as he now produces indigo, do you not conceive that he would produce as 

Mr, J. Saunders. ^^^^ gjij^ ^^^ jj^e Company do ?— Equally good. 

SO76. Supposing the Company were to cease to trade in silk, do you con- 
ceive that capitalists in Bengal would purchase their filatures? — Yes, I do ; 
and that the silk trade would be taken up hy indigo planters. 

2077- Could the production of indigo and the production of silk be carried 
on by the same parties? — Certainly, without any difficulty whatever. Indigo 
is grown on the low lands, and the land adapted for the production of silk is 
the high land ; contiguous to almost every indigo factory there are certain 
portions of land fitted for the mulberry, and the two might very profitably be 
conducted together. 

S07S. Can you produce any document showing the produce and cost of a 
small silk farm? — Yes; I have here an estimate upon a farm of thirty-two 
begahs of land. It was an experiment tried by an indigo planter, whose 
factory was situated in the midst of the mulberry plantations of Comercolly, 
Bauieah, Sardah, and Cossirahuzar, and this shows that good silk can be 
produced, allowing twenty per cent, for failure of bunds and casualties, at 
the rate of six rupees seven anas per seer, which is less than half the average 
price of the Company's investment in 1836, and one-third l^ss than it was ip 
1815. The samples of the produce of this experiment are now on their way 
to I'Ingland. 

2079. Will you put in that paper ? — 

[The witness delivered in the savie, which was read as JbUaws :] 
Estimate of Produce and Cost of a Silk Farm of 32 Begahs of Land 
Buildings on first Establishment. 
Reanw Houses : say, 
4 Houses, 34 feet lonj? by 20 feet broad, and 22 feet high, B. «. p. 

including roof as well as walls, completed a' 60/ each 240 

Fittinps of Houses : 

IG Gurhs or breeding Mucharis, a' 1/ each 16 

100 C'huiiderkhua for shelves of ditto, a' 5/ each 31 4 

Ghimihs or Spinning Frames 12 8 

Baskets 2/, Gunnus for sheets 2/, Soorab for 

Mucharies 4/ 8 

Roolahs and Rulsas 14 



Winding House : 309 

24 ftct long, 15 broad, and 7i high within the walls, with 

foundation, chimnies and boiling places, 1,352 solid feet 120 12 3 

Roofing of tiles with 6 inch terrace, 477 feet, a' 25/ per KO, 

including timber 119 8 5 

Flooring, 477 square feet, a' 8/7/10 per 100 40 7 11 

280 12 7 

TotdSkea RupwB 589 12 7 




SELECT COMMITTEE or thi HOUSE OF COMMONS. 181 






litTw 


«dTe« 


1 1 
.3d Year.lthTesr.'sthVnr 


TattL. 












1 












40 


40 












64 
32 


























Weeding and earthing, a' l/8 for the 6nt,'l 
and a/ per Begah for every sucxeeding > 


48 


64 


64 


64 


64 


304 




40 


- 


- - 


- 


40 






256 


104 


1 
IQ4 ' 104 


104 


672 
















Eggs, but lightened by preurvation ofl 
cocoons in an established concern .... J 


70 


70 


70 


70 


70 


350 


Bussree Rooters, 3/ per house; 8 fortwelve \ 
months, a' 4/ per month J 


384 


384 


384 


384 


384 


i.gao 


Roolen attending ditto, s/ per house; Sfor'l 
six months, a' 3/ ditto / 


144 


,44 


144 


144 


144 


730 




598 


598 


598 


598 


598 


2.990 


Winding: 














4 KuttaDeraornilenforfouriDODths,85/'| 
per month / 


80 


80 


80 


80 


80 


400 


4 Pagdon for foor months, a* 3/ per month 


48 


48 


48 


48 


48 


940 


Levolera wpplying wood, water, &c ; 4 for 1 
four months, at 3/ ditto / 


48 


48 


48 


48 


48 


940 


Wood: 














500tMmiida,a'i4/per ux> maundi.. 70 














lUiddartcuttlDgwood, 3/ per 100] 
naond* J ^^ 


85 


85 


65 


85 


85 


425 




s6i 


961 


s6i 


961 


061 


1,305 



17: 

llr.. 



Toul, Sicca Rup««f . 



4.967 



11 Maidl 1831. 
Mr. J. S 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDU AFFAIRS : 



PRODUCE. 







COCOONS. 


SILK. 


BUND8. 


B; CccoODi. 


B,W.«bt. 


Bate 

Mauod 


NET PRODUCE. 




lit 
Tew. 




4tb 
Teu. 








BMta. 


a_iitr 


B... 


Amf 


of 

CocooH. 


Tmt. 


3d 
Xtu. 


TOTAI^ 


Ughun. 


16 


67i 


1,080 


1^ 


34 




1 30 


m.1. 

1 SO 


■1.1; 

1 30 


1 ao 


1 30 


■•■>. 

7 30 


Cheyt . 


16 


6^ 


,,»» 


•i 


30 


't 


1 5 


» 6 


> 5 


I 5 


» 6 


5 35 


FUth . . 


16 


331 


540 




13 


3 


34 


n 34 


24 


84 


34 


3 » 


Shaboon 


16 


33i 


540 




IS 


S 


34 


11 94 


34 


24 


94 


3 


Bbadur 


16 


•'i 


360 




8 


3 


16 


16 


16 


16 


16 


a 


Kartick 


16 


=7{ 


440 




8 


3 


16 


16 


16 


16 


16 


3 




96 


- 


3.960 


- 


84 


- 


4 25 


4 25 


4 25 


4 «6 


4 25 


03 5 



Which is equal to 5 r. 6 a. per Kcr; to which mutt be added, for Mure ofbundi and other casual- 
ties, 20 per ceot^ which increawi the cost per seer to Sicca ncpeei 6/7. — ShooU of each bunijr 
and slips on chuige of land, not included in this return, and iniich wiD be in reduc^on of ihu. 
calculation. 

S080. Have you any comparative statement of the exports of sOk made by 
private merchants and the East-India Company for twelve yean, from 1817 
to 1838 ? — This is a statement I made up in India from the best information 
I could obtain, which shows an increase in the private trade within the last 
six yearsj from 1823 to 1838, over the preceding six years, of S5| per ceat.* 
while in the same period the increase in the Company's has only oeen 17^ 
per cent. 

3081. Will you deliver in that sUtement 7 — 

QTAe mtTiess delivered in the same, which was read asJbUffCD» .■] 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HODSE OF COMMONS. 183 



Priiue Shipusti of Haw Bilk to EDgtaad. 






BdM. 




Pop the sea- 


Balu. 




From 1st Jan. to 








Silt Dec. 1817 


778 




son 


1817-18 


5,1,53 
3,7.36 
5,484 




Ditto ■ 1818 


l,242i 




Ditto 


1818-19 




Ditto • 1819 


666 




Ditto 


1819-20 




Ditto - 1820 


1,330 




Ditto 


1820-21 


5,.M8 




Ditto - 1821 


903* 




Ditto 


1821-22 


5,759 
5,7.56 




Ditto - 1822 


1,715 




Ditto 


1822-23 








6,635 


Ditto 


1823-24 




31,436 


Ditto - 1823 


2,0961 


4.485 


Ditto - 1824 


1,447 




Ditto - 


1824-25 


5,212 




Ditto - 182.1 


2,233j 




Ditto - 


1825-26 


5,6.55 




Ditto - 1826 


864 




Ditto 


1826-27 


6,255 




Ditto - 1827 


5«J 




Ditto - 


1827-28 


7,004 




Ditto - 18-28 


1.878 


9,0634 


Ditto - 


1828-29 


6,364 


■34,975 











17 M 
Mr. J 



Increase of the last six years, from 1823 
to 1828, over the previous six years, from 
1817 to 1822. 2.428 bales, or about 35J 
per cent. 



Increase of the last six years, 1823-4, 
to 1828-29, over the previous six years, 
1817-18 to 1822-23.3.539 bales, or about 
one-half of the private, being only about 
17 per cent. 




2082. When you went out to India in 1824 had you a license ? — I had not 
ft license. Application was made by the parties interested in my going out, 
to the Court of Directors and to the Board of Control. I was not in London 
at the time these applications were made, but I understood that the applica- 
tions were refused, both by the Court of Directors and the Board of CoDtroI, 
and in consequence I was obliged to smuggle myself out to India. I went 
out as the purser of a private ship. 

2083. Did you reside some time in India before yon obtained the license ? 
^Several years before I obtuned a local license. 

2084^ Did you reside with a feeling of security in India during the 
time you had no liceose?— Knowing that a license had been refused me 
before I went out, I was certainly under, apprehensions till I got a local 
license. 

2085. How long did you reside before you got a local license?^! believe 
it was in 1827, or in the beginning of 1828, that I obtained a local license. 

9086. Was any reason assigned for not granting that license ?— I was not 
in London at the time. I am aware of no other reason than that it was 
refused in consequence of the application coming from a house engaged in 
th« India nik true. 

2087. Do 



1«4 



ON EAST4NDIA AFFAIRS : 



17 March 1831. 
Mr. J. Satmden, 



2087* Do you know in what terms the application was refused ?—*! bikve 
not seea the CQrrespaDdence» but I believe I could obtain it. . 

2088. Do you know what pretence was assigned for the necessity of ypiir 
going to India?— I have stated before, that I have not seen the cor- 
respondence. 

2089* Who made the application ? — I object to mention names, but if it is 
absolutely necessary I can do so. This circumstance was mentioned in the 
House of Commons by a member at the time it happened. The gSntlemati 
who made the application is not in England, and for that reason, not haVing 
his permission, I cannot mention his name. 

2090. Do you happen to know the reason why the license was refused r^«-I 
understood that it was in consequence of the application coming from a house 
which was interested in the Indian stlk trade; my going from that house, I 
understood, was the reason of its being refused. 

2091. Were you born in this country? — Yes ; I am the son of an English 
clergyman. 



LuncBj 21° die Mar Hi, 1831. 



John Irving, Esq. in the Chair. 



21 March 1831. PETER GORDON, Esq. again called in, and further examined. 



I\ Gordon^ Esq. 



2092. Have you any statement to make in explanation of your former 
evidence ? — In my former examination I have stated that the market price of 
grass was lower than the tariff price of grass. This arises from the dimensions 
of the bundles not being fixed, so that the tariff price applies to large bun« 
dies, and the market price to small bundles. The same with regard to straw 
and fire-wood. I have also stated on a former occasion, that the lowest price 
of rice at Ramnad was four pounds for a penny ; I find, by referring to a 
memorandum, that it is eight pounds to a penny. I have also stated that 
the sum of £60,000 annually had been expended on the water-works \ by 
reference I find it is £40,000 only* 

2093. Have you devoted any attention to the history and present state of 
the circulating medium in India? — I have for a number of years paidxon- 
siderable attention to it in tlie way of business. ^ ; 

2094. Have you endeavoured to make yourself acquainted with the state of 
the circulating medium in India at some distant date?— -1 have, commencing 
with Ayeen Akbery, the oflScial record of the emperor Ackbar, translated 
by Mr. Gladwin for Warren Hastings, under the express patronage of the 
Company. 

2095. From 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 185 

9095. From the researches you have made, what appears to have been the 21 Mar 
currency ofHindostan on the accession of Ackbar ?---Copper coin called the '* 

dun, weighing about half an ounce, appears to have been the oflScial money ^* ^^ 
and the most frequent coin ; however, in some of the soubahs, the revenue 
accounts were kept in cowry shells, in almonds, and in measures of rough grain. 

2096. Is it supposed tliat gold or silver were current at that time ? — Both 
were coined occasionally, but not as national coin, neither were they circu- 
lated at any fixed rate ; they were coined and circulated at the market rate 
that they would fetch. 

2097* Do yoti know whether Ackbar had any standard of value, or in what 
that consisted ? — The dun was the money of account. 

2098. Were there any mints in those days? — There were, of gold, silver, 
and of copper also. At Delhi might be the principal mint of gold; and in 
many of the other soubahs, where silver bullion was met with, there were 
mints for silver coin; and at most of the principal stations throughout the 
empire there were mints for copper coin, to the number of about forty. 

2099. By whom were the mints managed in the different provinces ? — By 
a separate board at Delhi, not by the soubahdar of the province in which the 
mint was situated ; the mints were independent of the local governments in 
the soubahs. 

2100. Do you know hr>w the mint charges were defrayed ? — By a tax .on 
coinage. Mints were open to the merchants and other persons to bring 
their bullion at pleasure, and all the expenses were paid by a duty on coinage, 
which was apportioned out to the different labourers and officers of the mint. 

2101. Were the coins current by the tale, or by weight? — When ihey 
were in a perfect state they were current by tale ; when they were clipped, 
or in an imperfect state, they were current by weight, and they were also 
subject to touch. 

210*^?. Were the revenues paid in coin ? — In some places they were fixed 
in coin, and in other districts they were in kind, and also in services ; 
frequently in land also the revenues were paid ; as in jaghias for the pos- 
session of land, and also for the produce of land. 

2103. Can you state at what period the English began to coin in India ? — 
The first English Indian coins seem to have been a copper coin for Bombay, 
and at Bombay the Company very soon began to coin a copy of tlie Mogul's 
rupee ot'the Surat mint. 

2104. Do you know when the Calcutta mint was first established ? — In 
1717 the MoggI granted a firman for coining, but the soubahdar of Bengal 
would not allow the Company to act on it ; it was first established in 17^7* 
on the capture of Calcutta by Admiral Watson: the soubah of Bengal was 
then forced to enter into an airangement allowing the Company to coin at 
Calcutta ; immediately the mint was erected, and rupees were struck 
bearing the Moorsbedabad impression. 

« B * 2105« Y}o 



186 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 March 1831. 2105. Do you know the regulations of the Company's coinage? — At a 
— — very early period^ by Royal charter or by Act of Parliament^ the Company 

P. Gordon^ Esq, was authorized to coin in India copies of Indian coins, with the permission 

of the prince, and on condition of their bearing the same impression, and 
being of the same weight and touch with the Indian coins of which they 
were copies. 

2106. Are you speaking now of any particular presidency, or of the 
whole of them ? — The charter or Act was not limited in its application to 
any particular presidency, but was general with reference to the Company's 
factories in India. 

2107. Do you mean to say that the Company's mints in India were 
regulated by Act of Parliament ? — When they began to coin, or perhaps 
before they began to coin, for their own security, of course, not to be liable 
to the punishment of coiners, they received a Royal charter or Act of Par- 
liament, authorizing them to coin in India, with the permission of the prince 
whose coin they copied. 

2108. Are the mints still regulated by the provisions of that charter ?«»I 
am not aware of the provisions of this charter having been extended, and 
the Company being allowed to originate coins, or to coin without the per* 
mission of the prince, or of a different standard and touch ; but they actually 
do these things, which I believe to be illegal by the law of England. 

2109. Are all the Company's mints under the same administration, or has 
each presidency its own mint ? — There is no general administration in India 
of the mints ; each presidency manages the mints of that presidency uncon- 
trolled in India. 

2110. During the last twenty years what have been the most important 
alterations in the Company's coins ? — At Madras, in 1818, the standard of 
value was gold, then it was altered to silver : the weights and touch of the 
coins have also been altered very frequently. The last considerable altera- 
tion has been within two years, assimilating the rupee of Bombay to that of 
Madras, in all but in its impression ; they are exactly of the same weight and 
touch, but they bear different impressions, consequently they are not 
mutually current. 

2111. Has the proportion of value between gold and silver been main- 
tained ?— It has been frequently altered within a very few years. 

2112. Can you state the proportions which the value of gold has to 
silver ? — At present it is one to fifteen. At Madras and Calcutta the pro- 
portion was very different indeed up to 1818 : in 1818 I think it was 
established at one to fifteen, and has remained so ever since in all the three 
presidencies ; that is the only point in which the three presidencies agree in 
their coinage. 

2113. Do you mean to say, that in coins of the same denomination there 
is a different weight of silver in each presidency ?— Yes ; for three years a^o 

m 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 187 

the presidency of Bengal there was the Calcutta rupee and tlie Furruckabad 21 
rupee, diflering in weight from each other; at Madras, the Madras rupee 
differing in weight from the Bombay rupee, or from any of the Bengal 
rupees. 

SI 14. What effects do alterations in the coinage produce upon the 
natives ? — The slightest alteration, even when there is no alteration in the 
impression, any new coinage which they can detect, causes a difference in 
the value of the rupee ; it bears either a premium or a discount, usually a 
discount upon a new coin of a halfpenny or a penny. In 1824* there was a 
new coinage at Madras, exactly the same weight and touch and impression 
with the former rupee ; but the new rupees as they came into circulation 
were constantly at a discount of one or two pice, that is, one halfpenny or 
one penny on the rupee. 

2115. By touch do you mean the quantity of alloy in the metal? — Yes. 

2116. Does the quantity of alloy in gold differ in the different presi- 
dencies ? — At present in all the presidencies silver and gold are of the same 
alloy with Tower of London gold coin ; twenty-two carats of pure in twenty- 
four carats of coin, is the established touch for silver and gold at present in 
all the three presidencies. 

21 17* Do those alterations in the coinage subject the natives to impositions 
from money dealers? — Yes, to very great imposition. Those alterations are 
profitable to the money dealers as they increase their trade, but are very oppres- 
sive to the lower classes of the natives ; the lower they are the more oppres- 
sive it is to them. 

2118. Do you conceive it desirable that the coinage should be uniformly 
and well executed? — Extremely so. In no country in the world is it so 
necessary that the coin should be perfectly executed, and kept in perfect 
order; for even if the coin wants the jingle, that is, if it will not ring, or if it 
has the slightest scratch, or appears damaged at all, it is subject to a discount 

2119 Can you refer to any period in the history of India at which the 
coinage was equal to its present state ?— Machinery was never in the state 
in which it is at present 

2120. How many mints are there under the management of the Company 
in India ? — In Bengal the mint of Calcutta and the mint of Furruckabad 
may be the only mints ; at Madras one mint } at Bombay one mint. 

2121. Besides those avowed mints, are there others under the management 
of the officers of the Com panv ?«— There are numerous mints in the Nizam *8 
territory, in the kingdom of Oude, and in the Mahratta states, under the 
management of the Company, though not avowedly. 

2122. In what respect are those mints under the control of the Company^s 
officers ? — In the same manner as every other branch of the government of 
those countries managed by the will of the resident ; the sovereigns of those 
countries are actually the residents of those countries. 

2 B 2 2128. Do 



P. Gar 



188 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



21 March 1831. 



P. Gordmi, Eaq, 



2123. Do you consider it advisable that the money circulated in India 
should be coined in India, or in this country ? — In this country. 

Sia*. For what reason ? — It would be more cheaply coined and better 
executed^ 

2125. Did you ever reside in any of those places where you say the mint 
is under the influence of the British Government indirectly ? — No, I did not. 

2126. Upon what authority do you assert that those mints are under the 
control of the British ministers? — In the same way that I assert that the sun 
rose this morning: I have no personal knowledge of it, I did not see it rise ; 
but from many official reports and examinations into the state of those 
countries. 

2127. Will you take for example the state of Oude, and refer to any one 
official report which proves or even insinuates that the British Government 
possess or ever did possess, directly or indirectly, the smallest influence upon 
the mint of Oude? — 1 remember several official reports that mention that 
the treasury was in the resident's house, and I know that the collection and 
all the detail of the treasury is managed by the resident, and has been for 
many years. 

2128. Do you mean the Company's treasury, or the treasury of the state ? 
— I mean the treasury of the state. 

2129. From whence do you derive that information ? — From the Hydrabad 
papers, and prior to that from the documents published by this House rela- 
tive to Warren Hastings's trial. 

2130. Can you refer to any particular document or any statement of that 
nature? — I have no doubt I can do so, but I have no document here 
with me. 

2131. In what mode would this country be supplied with gold, silver, and 
copper, for the circulation of India ? — As it always has been ever since the 
communication with India has been opened, by the natural operations of 
commerce ; the mines of America and the mines of Europe would supply it. 
The greater part of the cargoes sent from this country to India and to China 
always has been in specie for the purchase of Indian commodities. Venice 
did the same, and Rome did the same. It has always been the course to 
export bullion to India and China. 

2132. Is it not the case, that from the rate of exchange between India and 
Europe, the precious metals in some years, especially at particular junctures, 

have taken an opposite course, and have flowed from India to Europe ? 

They have. 

2133. That being the case, would it not be a great expense to have the 
coinage made in England, and transmitted to India ? — It would be an advan- 
tage to merchants to have a mint in London, where they could apply for 
Indian coins, or for coins which had circulation throughout British India, at 

their 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 189 

their pleasure. If it was not for their interest, they would not apply. But 21 ] 
the principal causes that operate on the exchange between India and England 
are political transactions, and the duties imposed upon Indian goods in Eng- ^* ^ 
land ; it is quite an artificial rate. 

2134. Without reference to the political causes or to the operations of com- 
merce, when the exchange between India and Europe is unfavourable to 
India, if the coinage for India were in England, would it not, in proportion 
as the rate of exchange was unfavourable, enhance the price, and of course 
the expense of that coin which is destined to circulate in India ? — The bullion 
goes out at present, and is coined dearly in India, whereas it might be coined 
cheaply in England, and then be sent out. 

2135. Would not the expense of insurance and other charges be necessarily 
added to the cost of the metal, and consequently enhance it when it arrived 
in India precisely in proportion to those charges, and would it not, in addition, 
be burdened with the difference of exchange? — The charges enumerated 
would be the same on coin as on bullion, but I do not see how it would be 
burdened with any particular rate of exchange. The transaction would be 
profitable or unprofitable according to the rate of exchange. 

S136. Do you suppose that India and Europe would be mutually supplied 
with specie, as they happened to have a demand for them ?— Certainly, the 
rate of exchange adjusts itself. 

2137. According to the comparative cheapness or dearness of money in 
different countries? — And a comparative demand for it, affected principally 
by political and commercial events, also by natural causes, as dearth and 
scarcity in the countries. 

2138. Do you suppose that as cotton grown in America is brought to 
this country, and after being manufactured is exported to India, so, if there 
was a demand for it, silver would be brought to this country and coined, and 
then exported to India: — Exactly. 

2139* Supposing one presidency requires a supply of money from another, 
how is the remittance made ? — In specie. 

2140. Supposing a remittance is made from Madras to Bengal in the coins 
of Madras, what becomes of those coins on their arrival in Bengal ? — ^They 
go into the melting-pot, because they have no currency in the adjoining 
presidency of Bengal ; even the coins of Furruckabad have not currency at 
Calcutta ; in that other part of the same presidency of Bengal they are mere 
bullion. 

S141. Can you state what is the amount of loss on every remittance of 
specie sent from Calcutta to Madras ? — The dollars, when coined into rupees 
at Madras, pay a duty of two per cent. ; the rupees of Madras sent up to 
Calcutta have to pay, even on board the Company's own ships, at present, I 
understand, two or two and a half per cent, to the commander, added to 
which ought to be charged the freight due to the ship, also the risk and the 
loss of interest. When they arrive at Calcutta they are mere bullion, and 

have 



190 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS: 

21 March 1831. have to be recoioed ; and if on private account pay two per cent, seignorage 

,~~ to the Company, including the charges of the mint for fuel, &c. If it is 

P. Gordofi, Esq. silver of another standard, it has to pay also for refining ; but at present, lis 

the silver and gold are the same standards at each presidency, it is merely 
recoinage. 

2142. The Committee understand, that you conceive the best remedy for 
it would be one general coinage for India, and you would recommend that 
coinage to be struck in this country? — Undoubtedly. Under tbe Mogul 
there was one coinage ; it is only under the Company*s administration that 
the rupees have been altered. Since the Company have coined at Surat, the 
rupees of Surat were of the same touch and weight as at Calcutta ; but it is 
by being under separate superintendence that the Mogul's Delhi rupee has 
branched into Bombay, Madras, and Calcutta rupees, and those three species 
of rupees have sprung up from one source. The Company has always been 
desirous of reverting to one fixed standard. Two years ago, in Calcutta, the 
Finance Committee from the three presidencies had that subject under their 
consideration, to adopt one rupee for the whole of the three presidencies ; but 
they were not able, I believe, to fix on a standard. 

2143. Do you mean that before the Company established itself in India 
there was one universal standard ? — There was one universal standard, the 
Delhi standard ; even as late as the time when the Company began to coin 
rupees it had not been lowered. The Company coined rupees at Bombay at 
an early period, of the Delhi standard. Even in 1757> when the Company 
began to coin at Calcutta, the rupee coined by the Company at Bombay had 
been but very slightly depreciated ; but the Bengal rupee, in which, then, 
the Company had never interfered, had been kept up to the Delhi standard. 

2144. Upon what principle is it that the calculation is formed of the 
exchange between the three presidencies ? — It is on an arbitrary principle, 
for the convenience of the Company's accounts ; that is, the Cbmpany^s 
exchange in their accounts between each other. At Calcutta, the current 
rupee, which is an imaginary coin, is estimated at 2s. ; at Bombay, the rupee 
is rated at 2s. 3d. ; and at Madras, the pagoda, which is the currency, is rated 
at 8^. ; all arbitrary assumptions. 

2145. Are not those rates of exchange referable to the coins in circulatioti? 
— Not at all. With respect to the current rupee at Calcutta, there never has 
been such a coin struck; it was fixed on by- the Factory in Bengal before 
the Company had any territory, merely for the convenience of their mercantile 
accounts. 

214C. Is there no positive ground or principle which regulates the 
excliange ? — The same as in Europe, the demand of the day, the fluctuating 
exchange ; the actual exchange between the different presidencies fluctuates 
daily. 

2147. Are you not aware that the exchanges of Europe have reference to 
the quantity of metal, and the value of that metal contained in the coins of 
each country ?— What is called the par of exchange hat, and of course the 

same 



p. i 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 191 

same might be applied ; but the plan which has been fixed on for keeping ^1 
the Company's accounts was not on that calculation, it was fixed in round 
sums of 25., 2i. 3d. and 8^. ; and those fixed rates of exchange for the 
Company's accounts were kept steady, though the currencies of the different 
presidencies were frequently altered. 

2148. Are you not aware that exchanges between coun ries are regulated 
by the quantity and the value of the metal contained in each, and in addition 
thereto, by the expense of transmitting those metals from the one country to 
the other? — ^Those are the principal causes operating on the rate of 
exchange ; but if they were the only causes, they would always be stationary. 

2149- Supposing that were a principle admitted to govern the exchanges 
of Europe, is there anything in the intercourse between the three presidencies 
which ought to vary that principle ? — Nothing ; the three presidencies are 
situated as three different countries in Europe. 

2150. Do you think the proper regulation for fixing the value of the coin 
would be the quantity of pure silver in the coins ? — Certainly. 

2151. Do you think that two-shilling and one-shillinu; pieces, with the 
sterling stamp upon them, would be a suitable coin for circulation in India ? 
— It would become current; the two-shilling piece would become currentas 
a rupee; in fact, the rupee at present is just a two-shilling piece. I think 
the sicca rupee is heavier than two shillings, and the Bombay and Madras 
rupee is lighter than two shillings ; but since the standard in England is gold, 
and in India is silver, there can be no par of exchange. 

2152. What is the difference in value between the Calcutta sicca rupee 
and the Bombay and Madras rupee ? — ^Within two years the Bombay rupee 
has been altered to the same standard of weight and touch as the Madras 
rupee, consequently they are exactly the same, they differ only in the 
impressions they bear ; their weight is fifteen-sixteenths of the Calcutta sicca 
rupee, and their touch is exactly the same. 

2153. In the event of Europeans being permitted to settle freely in India, 
and to introduce capital there, under good laws and proper security for 

Eersons and property, are you of opinion the banking establishments would 
e extended to the principal provincial towns ? — Undoubtedlv ; they would 
be among the first undertakings of Europeans in India, as they have been 
at Calcutta. 

2154. In your opinion, what would be the effect of such establishments 
on the agriculture, manufactures, and commerce of the country? — Ex- 
tremely beneficial, as in every country capital is the principal staple of every 
manufacture. 

2155. Are there not native bankers established in all the principal towns 
in India ? — Throughout all India ; and money-changers in every street, in 
every town, in every villMre. 

^ ^ ^ 2156. Do 



192 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



21 March 1831. 



P, Gordon^ Esq. 



2156. Do you know at what rate the native bankers discount bills of ex- 
change ?-*-Even as high as five per cent, a month, in small dealings. 

ilSJ* What number of European banking establishments are there 
throughout India ? — At Bombay I am not aware that there is any bank ; at 
Madras there is one bank, the Company's bank entirely, which receives de- 
posits, and discounts, and issues bank notes, which have no currency beyond 
the limits of the city of Madras, in the Company's treasuries. At Calcutta 
there is one bank, of which the Company holds one-fifth share, and four 
private banks. 

2158. Has the bank, of which the Company is a shareholder at Calcutta, a 
charter under the provisions of the 47th of Geo. III. ? — The Company's bank 
at Calcutta is a chartered bank, and is a joint-stock concern under the 47th 
Geo. IIL, c. 68, ss. 8 to 10, which empowers the Government to grant 
charters to banks in India. 

2159* Have any other banks charters under the provisionsof that statute!^ 
— None of the other banks have charters; they have applied for them, and 
have been refused. 

2160. Do you know the reason why they have been refused? — It is impos- 
sible to know the reason, but it is supposed that the Company is desirous of 
monopolizing to itself as much as possible the trade in money at the presi- 
dency of Calcutta. 

21 61. Can you state the present value of a share in the bank of Bengal in 
which the Company are partners ? — The original subscription was 5,000 
rupees ; at present they are usually worth above 10,000, and as high as 1 1,000 
rupees, and I think they have been higher than that. 

2162. Do you conceive that the profits of that bank would be materially 
reduced were other banks to obtain charters? — If the other banks wene 
chartered, it is most probable that the profits of banks under private manage- 
ment would be greater than that of the bank directed by the Company, and 
administered in a considerable degree by the Company's officers ex-omcio. 

2163. Do you know what was the original stock of the chartered bank? — 
Haifa million sterling. 

2164. Do the notes of the different banks pass among the natives as specie, 
without discount? — As specie, and of course they always will while they are 
exchangeable on demand for specie. They have always done so, with the 
exception of one day during the Burmese war, when it was stated in the 
public prints that the Company's bank had refused payment of its notes. 

2165. Do the notes of the Calcutta bank circulate beyond th^ town ?— 
Among Europeans and private persons they do, but they are not receivable 
in the Company's treasuries beyond the city of Calcutta. 

2166. Are they received in the treasury of Calcutta as cash? — They are 
receivetl as cash in the government offices in the city of Calcutta. 

2167. Do 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OP COMMONS, 198 

21 67. Do you know whether the notes of the Bengal bank are received by ^1 Mai 
the country collectors in Bengal or not? — If they are received it ison their 

own private responsibility, but it is understood that it is against orders to ^' ^^ 
receive them. 

2168. Do you mean that it is against the regulations of the Grovemment? 
— ^Not the printed regulations, but the instructions for the guidance of 
officers. 

2169. Have you ever known them refused by the country collectors? — 
Outside of Calcutta, in Bengal, I have never had occasion to pay any money 
into a TOvemment office, but I have with me a correspondence refusmg them 
at Madras. 

2170. Are the notes of the government bank at Madras received as cash 
at the provincial treasuries throughout that presidency ? — They are not 

2171. What do you understand to be the reason of their being refused ? — 
I have heard it stated that it is in order that specie may not leave the 
country ; the taxes are not received except in specie. 

2172. Is not paper money convertible into specie on demand? — At Ma- 
dras it always has been, since the establishment of the bank. 

2173. At what do you estimate the amount of paper money in circulation 
throughout India? — in bank notes at half a million sterling. 

2174. Do you conceive that the commerce of the country could benefici- 
ally employ a larger paper circulation in the shape of bank notes? — It would 
immediately employ at least £^0,000,000 sterling, if banks were on the same 
footing that they are at present in England. 

2175* Do you think that native as well as European capitalists would 
place confidence in European banking establishments ? — They would, as 
they do in other transactions with Europeans, not entirely from the personal 
character of Europeans and the integrity of their dealrngs, but also from 
their connections with England. The bankers of Calcutta are connected with 
the House of Lords and the House of Commons, with the Government in 
England ; the native bankers, who are spread all over India, have not this 
support ; they can be ruined by an act of the Companjr's officers, without 
appeal further than the Sudder dewahee adawlut. The administration of 
Justice, of course, is the chief security and means of giving confidence to a 
Dank. 

2176. Supposing that what you recommend were adopted in India, and 
that banking by Europeans in the different pronnces were admitted, how 
would such banks be conducted ; what manner of securities would they lend 
their money upon^ and how far would the circulation of paper displace the 
circulation of metallic money ?— -They would be conducted as at present in 
the cities of Calcutta and Madras. 

«c 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



Jovis, 24" die Martii 1831. 



Sir Henry Parnbll, Bart, in the Chair. 

PETER GORDON, Esq. again called in, and further examined : 

21- March 1831. ^177* Do yoti wish to state any thing with respect to your last examina- 
tion? — I beg leave to correct a statement I made concerning the authority 

/'. GonkiH, Esq. given to the Company to coin. It was by the fourth charter, in the year 
1677, the 28th of Charles the lid ; the Company were " authorized to coin 
money at Bombay, and other places, so that any of such coins be not called 
by the name of any current in the King's dominion, excepting the East- 
Indies." And the next charter on the same subject was the sixth charter 
granted to the Company, in the year 1686, the 2d James the Ild : " the 
Company may also coin in their forts any species of money usually coined 
by the Princes of those countries, so that it be made agreeable to the stand- 
ards of those Princes in weight and fineness, and so that they do not coin 
any European money ;" " all such money shall be current in anyplace with- 
in the limits, but nut elsewhere :" and Mr. Auber states, under Bombay, 
" there is one principal mint at the presidency, and several subordinate 
mints ; but as such mints are not wholly under European superintendence, 
the coin issued from the former will be alone noticed :" also, " the whole of 
the accounts relating to the British possessions on the continent of India are 
kept in the same denomination of money, namely the rupee." A question 
was put to me on my last examination, as to whether the cmnage of India 
was ever in so good a state in former ages as it is at present ; I replied with 
reference to the state of machinery, which is limited merely to the coin \ if 
the questioD extends to currency, I consider that the currency has been id 
a much better state at former periods than it is at present. 

SI78. Are the promissory notes of Government: carefully and skilfully 
executed P — ^Theyarenot; they are very coarsely executed on thick paper* 
and with common letter-press 

2179. Have they been fabricated with more care since the detection of 
certain forgeries ? — It was understood that copper-plate notes had been pre- 
pared on fine paper, but I have seen none of them. 

2180. Has convenience or inconveni^ice accrued to the commercial 
interest of India fh}m the mode in which the Company's debt has been here- 
tofore managed ? — ^Very great inconvenience. 

2181. Will you describe it ? — From the great fluctuations In the money 
market, occasionally advertising for payment as much as ten millions ster- 
ling. 




y 



SELECT COMMITTEE o» the HOUSE OF COMMONS. IftS 

ling, this debt coDvulsed all the monied interestB in Calcutta, by throwing; 34 Man 
thatamouoCofmon^ into a city that had no territory surrounding it Of ~ 

course the interest of money depends entirely upon the will of the Company, 
and at Madras every house a tew years ago had failed, and they imputed 
their failure principally to the financial operations of the Company ; every 
mercantile house of consequence had failed. 

2182. At what period was that ?^Twenty years ago ; there is scarcely a 
house now that has been established more than twenty yeant, at Madras. 

2183. And you ascribe that to the great fluctuations? — It is so considered 
generally. There was one case in Calcutta of the house of Baneito, who 
were unwilling to comply with the Company's rate of interest, on the reduc- 
tion from eight to six per cent: in consequence they refused to accept six 
per cent, paper ; and not having any place convenient for keeping so large 
a sum of money as half a million sterling, or perhaps a million sterling, as it 
was supposed belonged to them, they requested of the Governor to secure it 
for them, but the Governor General refused, and forced them to take to their 
own cellars any of the specie which they had refused to lend the Company 
at the reduced rate. 

2184. By what principle is the interest of money generally controlled in 
any country ?— Supply and demand. 

2165. According to this principle, how is it in the power of the Company, 
or any individual, to regulate the general interest of money ?'— By throwing 
ten millions sterling at once into the circulation of a city» of course money 
becomes a drug, an encumbrance. 

2i86. What interest would the Company or any Individual have in pro- 
ducing that state of things? — lo the saving of interest which arises to the 
Company from the reduction in the rate of interest. 

^187- Previous to tiie large expenditure occasioned by the Burmese war, 
could the Government of Bengal have reduced the interest of their debt 
below five per cent. ? — It could, and a loan was actually opened at four per 
cent, 

2188. What would have been the effect on the Calcutta market, reducing 
the interest to four per cent. ? — A great deal of private distress, as respects 
persons who were dependent on annuities; it also affects the militiiry and 
civil servants of the Company, whose emolument hati been derived in a great 
measure from the high rate of Indian interest, reckoning on which they had 
provided, as they imagined, sufficient for their families, who are now reduced 
to a state of poverty by the reduction of interest from twelve per cent, end 
opwards, to four per cent, and under. 

2189. Do you conceive that reduction of interest was wnrranted by the 
actual condition of the market or not ? — It was not ; Ibr beyond the limits 
at' Calcutta, atnoog the natives generally, the interest of money is much 
higher. 

2 C 2 2190. In 



196 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

24 Matvh 1831. 2190. In what way do you conceive that tbey had the power of making 

this violent reduction of interest ? — By taking advantage of the moment. 

1 ^' 2191. Do you know what the circumstances were under which they 
endeavoured to raise this loan at four cent. ? — I am generally acquainted 
with the circumstances of the times, and with the operations which took 
place there. 

2192. Did you mention the precise period of this circumstance? — 1821 or 
182S i the 1st of May 1822. 

S193' In any case within your knowledge, in which the rate of interest 
has been reduced by these operadons of the Company, has the rate of interest 
continued low, or risen again afterwards? — It has always fluctuated. At the 
Burmese war it immediately rose to five percent, and upwards; I believe 
money was not procurable at five per cent, immediately afler the declaration 
of the Burmese war ; and Calcutta was exceedingly distressed, never more 
distressed for money than it was after the Burmese war. The reduction of 
interest caused a great deal of capital to be withdrawn from India, both to 
Europe and to the native states beyond the limits of Calcutta, perhaps beyond 
the Company's territory. 

2194- Why was that capital not employed in the Company's territory ? — 
When there was a high rate of interest, it was brought into the Company's 
territory for the sake of security ; but when there was low interest arismg 
from the war, not more than four or five per cent, they preferred Having it 
in their own native territory, exposed to greater risk than in tlie Company's 
territories, but yielding ten or twelve per cent 

2195. Do the Committee understand the rate of interest in the province 
was lowered at the time it was in Calcutta P — I do not consider that the 
natural rate of interest was lowered among the natives, but merely the Com- 
pany's rate of interest 

SI96. What do you mean by natural interest ?— The general interest among 
the native mercantile community ; the agricultural and mercantile interest 
of the community. 

2197< You mean by natural, the general?— The general, that which finds 
its own level. 

3198. What is the present amount of the funded and floating debt of India? 
—Forty-two millions sterling. 

2199- Id your judgment, would any advaotf^e accrue to the commercial 
interest of India, from the whole of the Indian debt being managed in 
England ?— It would be a very great advantage to the commercial interest of 
India to be rid of so great a power over the currency of India. 

2200. How do you imagine the Indian debt would be best managed in 
this country ? — It would be better under any management in England thsa 
under its present numagement in India : it might be managed by the Con- 

P«Of. 





SELECT COMMITTEE op thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 197 

pan; at their house in Leadenhall-street, by the Bank of EogUod, or by the 24 Man 
King. In either case it might be managed with greater ecoDomy, and the — 

rate of interest would be lower on a debt in England than it is on the debt ^' ^'"^ 
in India. 

2201. What annual saving do you consider would arise from the debt being 
transferred to tlie management of England?— If the debt was reduced from 
five per cenL to four cent., I believe the saving would be about half a million 
sterling. 

330S. State in what way the transfer of debt from India to England could 
be effected in the first place ? — By opening a loan in London, and offering 
payment of the debt according to the terms on which it was contracted, 
whether in coin in Calcutta, or by bills on London, according to the terms 
of the existing debt. 

2303. Is the interest on this debt paid chiefly in Calcutta at the present 
moment? — The greater part of it is optional, on demand in Calcutta in the 
sicca rupee, or in London by the pound sterling. 

2204. Do you know what proportion is paid in England, and what propor* 
tion is paid in India ? — The proportion fluctuates according to the fluctuations 
in the exchange ; at present it is advantageous, and consequently the greater 
part of the interest is paid in London. 

2205. You conceive a loan might be effected by the Elast-India Confipany in 
this country, by which the debt would be transferred from India to England ? 
— Undoubtedly. 

2206. How would you contemplate the payment of the dividends which 
were to be paid in Calcutta ? — By transferring the debt to London, I consider 
that the dividends would be payable in London only. 

2207. Must you not transfer the capital from India to London in that case ? 
—No } the capital has been expended, it does not exist. 

2208. Do you conceive the measure of transferring the Indian debt to 
England would tend to strengthen or weaken the connection between England 
and India? — Undoubtedly it would strengthen the connection, as every 
other measure of good government would strengthen it : the connection can 
only be supported by good government, or by absolute force. 

2209. Would not great inconvenience accrue by such a measure to the 
native subscribers to the Indian debt ? — None whatever ; they would have an 
ofler of the money which they had subscribed, on the terms on which they sub- 
scribed it, or else a share of the debt in London, which they could sell in the 
market at the current rate of the day. 

2210. Is the amount of the native subscriptions to the Indian loan large?— 
Several investigations have taken pUce, and each successive investigation 
seems to have reduced tlie number of native subscribers. I have beard the 
proportioD stated as low as on&tenth of the debt being held by natives. 

2211. Has 



198 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDJA AFFAIRS : 

SiMarcli 1831. ^^11. Has Uje great abuDdance of money which has flowed to India in 

~T~ .^ consequenceof the freetradeconduced io any respect toafford facility to the 

. > ai, .Kj. ]j;2gt.Xi)(lia Company, in the financial operations of reducing the interest od 

their loan ? — Every increase of trade and of prosperity of course renders it 

easier to borrow money ; the greater the capital in the country is, I should 

suppose the easier it is to borrow money. 

S31S. In the event of the Company being deprived of the trade to India, in 
what manner do you conceive remittances could be made by the Indian 
Government to India for the payment of the Indian debt, for political pur- 
poses ? — By bills of exchange. 

2S13. Would that be more advantageous than the present mode of remit- 
tance in produce? — Undoubtedly the private trade is managed more advan- 
tageously than the Company's own commerce. 

S314. Upon what foundation would these bills of exchange rest, and how 
could an additional quantity be obtained, seeing that from the present state 
of the trade, the demand for bills of exchange upon England has altered the 
rate of exchange unfavourably to India? — The ground on which the Com- 
pany at present takes bills of exchange, is goods actually shipped, two-thirds 
of their value ; the amount of these bills of exchange could be augmented by 
altering the rate of exchange which they demand at present, from twenty- 
three pence to a lower rate, according to circumstances, and relaxing in their 
other regulations concerning these bills, which are granted only on goods to 
the po:t of London, I believe warehoused with the Company. 

^215. Does not the rate of exchange betwixt India and Europe depend on" 
the general demand (or bills in India upon Europe, and not upon any par- 
ticular regulations of the East-India Company, or any other individuala 
whatever? — It does, and private bills find those rates; but the Company 
fixes its own rate at twenty-three pence, and will not deviate from it If the 
Coin|jany put up their bills to auction, then the Company's bills would find 
iheir natural rate, as His Majesty's bills do at the various colonies, the Cape 
of Good Hoiw, the Isle of France, and iN'ew South Wales. 

^^■:^l(i. Is that a fixed rate of the Company ?— In 181*, immediately on the 
present charter being granted, the Court of Directors sent out instructions 
to thiir Government in India to grant bills of exchange to private merchants, 
taking SL-ctirity on goods: this order was not complied with by the local 
Government until hist year by Lord William Bentinck, 

S'^l?. If it was the case, by the transference of the Indian debt to Eng- 
land, that the demand for bills in India upon England was augmented two 
millions per annum, would not that of necessity produce pro tanto an' effect 
on the exchanger — Kvery bill brought into the market in its degree pro- 
duces an etlect on the exchange; but I consider that the present remittance 
of tribute liom India to England is two millions sterling actually, public 
private tribute. 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 199 

2218. In what way is a bill of excha«ige bought in India ?>*^The Company 24 Ma 
advance to the merchint coin, with which the merchant purchases a cargo, 
and grants to the Company bills of exchange, payable in London^ on Uie ^' ^^ 
security of this cargo, with the bill of lading. 

2219 The transaction is a transaction of coin in India against coin in 
England? — Coin in India against coin in England. In India the Company 
lends coin to the merchant, and in London the merchant repays coin to the 
Company. 

2220. And then the coin of each country being of a fixed standard, under 
the circumstances of the free trade, will not any demand of bills of exchange 
come to settle themselves finally at a regular steady rate ? — Undoubtedly, 
among private merchants ; but when the Company says it will grant bills 
of exchange at a fixed rate, and at no Other rate, of course that rate does 
not alter. 

2221. And whatever would be the necessity, under circumstances, of 
making large pecuniary remittances, would not it be practicable at all times 
to obtain bUls of exchange finally at regular and steady rates ? — It would be 
practicable, but not if the rate was determined by one party : if the bills 
were put up to auction, as by His Majesty in his colonies, they would find 
their natural rate. 

2222. And would not that, after a new system of remittance had been 
introduced and established, become a steady rate ? — Undoubtedly. 

2223. Is the basis of all bills of exchange from one country to the other, 
the produce of the country remitted from one country to the other ? — The 
produce and goods which are obtainable in the country. 

2224. Has not the rate of exchange a direct reference to the amount of 
the metal and the fineness of the coin in which that exchange is calculated ? 
— Undoubtedly. 

2225. Then when the exchange is low, metallic money flows from India, 
and supplies the place of bills of exchange ? — The direction in which metallic 
money flows is influenced by the rate of exchange. 

'2226. Is not the rate of exchange then influenced by the remittances in 
metallic money ?-^I consider that the remittance is influenced by the rate of 
exchange ; one influences the other ; if the one country is full of money, it 
overflows to another country: the one rate is fixed, the other rate is 
variable. 

2227. Does not the remittance of metallic money from one country to 
another operate on exchange precisely in the same manner as the remittance 
or shipment of any other commodity ; and, in that view, is not metallic 
money a commodity, and nothing else ? — Metallic money I consider as a 
commodity, and nothing else. 

2228. What is the effect of the purchase of the Company's investment in 

India 



300 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

•^i Murcli 1831. India for remittance to Europe, on the state of the Indian market P— There 

have been frequent examples of the immediate rise of an article in which 

F. Ooriiott, Esq. (|,g Company began to trade j for instance, cotton ran up very high indeed 
a few years since, when the Company began to remit it to Europe from 
Calcutta ; other articles of course are affected in the same manner. At 
Madras the merchants were complaining extremely that after they had been 
at the trouble of introducing indigo, and promoting the cultivation of it, as 
soon as it became of the slightest importance whatever, the Company inter- 
fered in the purchase of it, depriving the agency houses of their usual channel 
of remittance to this country. 

2239. Supposing a similar amount of articles sent from India to England 
by the free trader, would the effect you have described in the market have 
been produced ? — Certainly not : their agents would have been distributed 
throughout the country, instead of the Company's agents at one or two fixed 
stations, who were obliged to buy a certain quantity of cotton, whatever the 
price was, to complete the investment : the free traders would have been 
scattered over a greater extent of country, and when they found one article 
rising, they would have directed their attention to other articles, which it 
was not in the power of the Company's residents to do; they were acting 
under express directions. 

S230. Would not their transactions also have been spread over a larger 
period ? — They could have delayed their remittances unlit the next season. 

3231. What effect on the Indian market has the knowledge that the 
Company's agents are purchasing for remittance to Europe ?—C)f course it 
is expected that the article will rise in the Indian market, and that it also 
may be lowered unnaturally in the London market. 

2232. What is the condition of the Indian weavers and persons connected. 
with the culture and preparation of raw silk for the Company?— -I have not 
a personal knowledge on the subject, but of course I know it from official 
papers which I have seen on the subject ; I know their condition to be that 
of persons constantiy in debt, under advances to the Company, and that it is 
the system of the Company to keep them in that situation. 

2233. What manufactures of European machinery have been introduced 
into India by British-born subjects of late years ?— Several steam-engines 
have been introduced for pumping out docks, making and pressing paper, 
watering the roads, boring cannon, coining money, grinding flour, and 
spinning and weaving, and printing of cotton. 

2234. Into what parts of India have these been introduced ? — ^Bengal 
almost exclusively, and especially the neighbourhood of Calcutta : aUo 
steam>vessels have been introducea. 

2235. What kind of paper is manufactured ? — Very coarse, very mdiflerent 
and inferior. 

2236. Is that in the hands of natives or of Europeans ?— Tha Baptists' 

. M isionary 




p. Gore 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 201 

Missionary paper factory at Serampore is the only one, I believe ; I am not ^^ Mar 
aware of any other. 

2^37. Are the flour-mills on an extensive scale, and are they a profitable 
concern ? — They are the most extensive mills known, upwards of twenty pair 
of large stones ; it is a new undertaking, like most other new undertakings 
considered not a profitable concern. 

2238. Do you allude to that at Calcutta ? — Yes, Calcutta ; the only flour- 
mill is set up at Calcutta. 

2239. Has the machinery for spinning cotton answered ? — It has scarcely 
commenced its operations. 

2240. Was it considered likely, by intelligent persons, to answer?— 
Lookers-on, of course, considered that the prospect was not promising. 

2241. Is not the scarcity of fuel and the absence of falls of water, in the 
most populous Darts of India, a serious obstacle to the establishment of 
extensive manufactories and of industry in that country ? — It is in many 
parts of the country, especially in the Carnatic, where there is neither water 
nor fuel which can be made use of for the purpose of machinery ; however 
it does not require many favourable stations to supply a large extent of 
country. 

2242. What are the daily wages of a Hindoo, Chinese, and European 
art'^an at Calcutta ? — A Hindoo carpenter may be considered at 6d. per day, 
the Chinese at 25., and the European, the lowest superintendent of carpen- 
ters, at 6s. a day. 

2243. According to this statement, the labour of a Chinese is equal to that 
of four natives of Bengal ? — It is. 

2244. And the combined skill and inspection of an European equal to 
twelve natives of Bengal ? — Yes. 

2245. Judging from that data, do you not conceive the fixed price of 
labour in India is not low, but in reality high ?— 4t is generally considered 
high in most branches ; for instance, cabinet makers tor many years were 
accustomed to fix their prices by the London prices, substituting the rupee 
for a shilling ; if the price of making a chair in London was 55., they paid in 
Calcutta five rupees. 

2246. The rupee being of what value at that moment? — Two shillings. 

2247. Was it then actually worth 25. ? — It was then 25. Qd.j and even 
25. lOrf. 

2248. What is the proportion, in respect of skill and labour, between an 
Indian and an English seaman ?— In India, two lascars may be considered 
equal to an European ; but of course in a cold climate the lascar becomes of 
no value. 

2249. In the case of seamen^ the proportion is less than in t a 
other labourers : can you state the reason of that ? — There is 1 

2D 



aoa EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

24 March 1831. in division } two Uscars can be keeping watch much easier than one seaman 
-~' can, and doing many small jobs ; there are not many jobs on board a ship 

P. Gordon, Etq. ^^^^ require main strength. 

2250. What is the condition of an Indian ship without European officers? 
— As slovenly and dirty and ill managed as possible. 

2251. Are the natives of India ever employed as steersmen or quarter- 
masters in ships navigated by Indian seamen ? — The Christian natives of 
Manilla are especially employed as steersmen, native Portuguese also; but 
Mussulman lascars are not employed in that line. 

2252. What branches of industry, manufacture or otherwise, do you con- 
uder most natural to India in its present condition ?— Agricultural. 

2253. Has not rice been exported from India to England in the husk, of 
late years, in considerable quantities ? — It has ; in 18^ it had amuuated to 
1,000 tons, in consequence of being better cleaned in this country by ma- 
chinery than by manual labour in India. 

2254. Do you know the freight that rice pays in the husk, in comparison 
to clean rice ? — Double that of clean rice. 

2255. Does it occupy double the space ? — It occupies double the space. 

2256. Is not iron ore abundant in many parts of India? — I understand 
that in 1808 the Company sent out Mr. Duncan, who had been in Russia* 
and acquainted with iron works in that country, to examine the situation of 
the iron ore in India ; he established a factory under the protection of the 
Company, at Cossimbuzar, but I believe at his death it came to nothing. I 
know that iron ore is abundant in roost parts of India ; it is worked by the 
natives, especially at Salem. 

225?. Do you happen to know whether the iron ore is found in conjuhc- 
tioo with coal in India? — Except from Mr. Bracker, I never heard ra that 
coincidence. 

S258. What is the quali^ and price of Indian iron compared with British 
iron or Swedish ? — At Ramnad it is sold at a higher price than British or 
Swedish iron ; it is more pliable, but I understand there is a great waste in 
the working of it, which renders it pliable and adapted to many purposes for 
the natives, but it is expensive. 




SELECT gOM3fiTTL^EE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 908 



Jovis, 14" die Aprilis, 1831. 
Sir James Macdonald, Bart, in the Chair. 



WILLIAM WILDEY, Esq. called in, and examined. 

2259. You are Captain and Paymaster in His Majesty's army ? — I am. 14 Apr! 

4260. Have you served in the East-Indies ? — I have. jy ^^ 

22C1. In what part? — Ceylon, Madras, Bombay, the Deccan, and Cutch, 
are the principal parts of India I have served in. I have visited Calcutta, 
and most of the foreign stations of India. 

2262. When did you go to India first, and when did you return ? — I went 
to India first in 1804 ; I have been three times to India, serving in different 
regiments, and the last time I returned from that country was in 1827. 

2263. Have you made the country of Cutch the object of study with re- 
ference to its soil and productions ? — I have. 

2264. What has been the nature of your researches ?— -Principally the ores 
of Cutch, and the coal-mine ; I tliink in most parts of Cutch coal would be 
found in abundance. 

2265. How is it situated ? — The mine which has been worked by the order 
of the Bombay Government is situated about three miles from Bhooj, on the 
banks of a ravine ; it has not been worked to any extent in consequence of 
our force being removed from that country. 

8266. Have you made any experiments on the Cutch ooal ? — I have made 
several experiments. 

2267. What was the result?— -I found them satisfactory beyond my most 
sanguine hopes. 

2268. As compared with what ? — As compared with English coal. There 
in a eoal in Bengal called the Burdwan coal, but I never had an opportunity 
of comparing it with that coal. 

2269* How is it as compared with English coal ? — It i^i^nites quicker, and 
from the superior quality of the gas it contains I considered tnat it would 
answer for steam -machinery better than what is generally used in this 
country, and in India. In fact, its bitumen is so pure that it would not in- 
cnist the flues of the steam-engines like British coal : it burns to a white ash 
like the Kennet coal. 

2270. Is it of rapid combustion ? — It is rather so, but not so rapid as to ex- 
haust itself in a very short space of time. 

227L Have you brought any samples of it with you?— I have. 

2D 2 2272. Has 



*■'' 






804. EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

U April 1831 227s. Has it been used in the public works at Bombay? — It has never 
been used in any of the public works of Bombay, but an experiment has 

SS73. At what distance is it from Bombay ? — Cutch is about three d^rees 
by sea from Bombay ; Bhooj, where the mine is, about thirty miles from the 
sea. 

21274. Is there any water-carriage ? — It could be brought by water pro- 
bably during the monsoon, because at that period the river would be more 
navigable. 

Q975. What is the latitude and longitude of Bhoc^?— The latitude about 
3^, and the longitude about 69°. It is bounded by the Indus on the north- 
west, and the Gulph of Cutch on the south-east 

2276. Have you made any report of the result of your researches to the 
Bombay Government ? — I made a report to the Bombay Government in the 
year 1826. 

2277. Have you a copy of that report ? — I have (producing the same). 
The report was founded upon a communication I made to the Chief Secre- 
tary, Mr. Newnham, in consequence of which I was desired to make a report 
to the Government by the request of Mr. Elphinstone, the then governor of 
that Presidency. Mr. Newnham's letter bearing date the 18th of May 1826. 
I shortly afterwards received a communication dated from Bombay Castle, 
communicating to me the Governor in Council's thanks for the report I for- 
warded to the Government upon the coal mine. 

2278. Did you hear any thing further upon that subject from the Bombay 
Government ? — Nothing further. 

3279. Had you any communication with the Court of Directors afier you 
returned r — None whatever. I made a private communication to one ortitro 
of the Directors, but no public communication to the East-India Company. 
I received a private letter from Mr. Henry Alexander, one of the Directors, 
stating it as his opinion, that unless it bad been strongly recommended by the 
Bombay Government, the Company would not work the mine. 

2280. Was your attention drawn to any other productions of Cutch ?— Of 
iron ore, particularly copper, sulphur, towards the alum which is made in 
Cutch in considerable quantities, and also the wool of the Cutch sheep« . 
which is particularly long in staple, though not fine ; it is principally exported 
to Persia to make carpets with. 

2281. Of what qufdity is the iron ? — Extremely fine } I have made experi- 
ment<i on it in this country, and found its ore to possess about twenty-two per 
cent, of iron. It has been assayed in London: here is the proof from the 
Assay-office, which bears out my experiments. 

2282. What proportion does that bear to common iron ore ? — I should 
think from ten to twelve per cent, more than common iron ore. The ore of 
Cutch is found mostly upon the surface ; the natives gather it in ikets and 





SELECT COMMITTEE op toe HOUSE OF COMMONS. 205 

throw it into the furnace ; it runs out shortly aflerwarda in a liquid state ; 14 Ap 
furnaces are working night and day ; they castc:annon in Cutch. .7 

2S83. What fuel do they use ? — Mostly charcoal ; though they must have 
abundance of coal they are wholly unacquainted with its use. 

2284>. Do yon know the quality of the Swedish ore ? — Not in the form of 
ore, but I have seen Swedish iron in this country. 

2285. Can you make steel of the Cutch ore ? — Yes : steel is made in Cutch : 
it is the 6nest steel probably in India. In fact, the natives of Cutch make 
steel chain armour, sabres, pikes, and vaiious sharp>edged tools; they are 
the best blacksmiths in Asia ; their horseshoes are particularly fine, the iron 
being more malleable and soil, and not so likely to break. I have heard the 
veterinary surgeon of the 4th Dragoons say that they are the finest shoes he 
ever saw, and far preferable to those made in England. 

3386. You belonged to the 4-th Dragoons in India, did you not ? — I did. 

2287- Do you suppose that if encouragement were given by the govern- 
ment the coal-mines and iron.mines might be wrought with great advantage ? 
— [ have no doubt about it. 

2288. Would there be any difficulty in obtaining permission of the Cutch 
Government ? — I am not aware of that. The country is under a regency, 
consisting, I believe, of Major Pottinger, Mr. Walter, and a native ; how far 
permission would be given to Europeans to locate in Cutch I know not. 

3S8P. Was there any difficulty contemplated in that quarter? — None that 
I am aware of, as I made no application to the regency. 

2290. You have mentioned a letter which you received from Mr. 
Newnham, and a report which you made in consequence to the Bombay 
government ; will you have the goodness to read them ? 

[ J'he witness read the same, asfoUows: ] 

Elxtract of a Letter from Mr. Chief Secretary Newnham to Captain Wildey , dated 
Bombay, 18tb May, 182C. 
My Dear Sir : 
A pressure of other matter has prevented an earlier acknowledgment of your letter, 
which, with the sample of coal, came at a very auspicious montent ; just as orders 
were received from the Court of Directors io England, desiring that the sources of coal 
in this country miglit be examined, to know the extent in which they might be depended 
iHK>n for iteam navigation. I lost no time therefore in laying your letter and spe- 
eaatfa privately before the board at the first meeting of council; and they were 
locAed upon with as much interest as is usually done by people not conversant with the 
arcana of such matters. Mr. Elphinstone desired me, however, to say, that any 
report which you can at your leisure draw up on the subject of the Cutdi coal wifl 
b« most acoeptable at brad quarters ; I shall bi:^, therefore, lo hear further from 
joiioBthasu^ieet. 

(Signed) W1U.IAH Newkhau. 

Chief Secr«tary to Government. 

Copy 



S06 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

i Apnl 1831. Copy of a report on the Cutch Coal-mine, made by request of the HoDOurable 

""" Mount Stuart Qphinstone, Goiraraor of Bombay, by William Wildey, Paymaster 

' " '«**' ^'•y- 4th Light Dragoons ; dated Kaira, 12th June 182(i. 

The coal-mine of Ciitch lies on the right bank of a large ravine, throi^ which runs 
a small stream o( water, distant from the entrance of the mine eight or nine yards, and 
about five feet below its level. The mine has been worked in the usual method of 
driviug, following the vein of coal in a direct line nearly twenty-two yards, dipping 
gradually across the face of the mine, and varying in thickness from fourteen to seven- 
teen inches ; the level then takes a turn to the right, and inclines in that direction about 
three yards, when it resumes its original direction by a turn to the left, which it conti- 
nued six or seven yards farther in, when the miners were withdrawn. The different 
stratums through wliich the level haa been driven, are those most commonly atten- 
dant on coal-mines, but other stratunis, p^Tites, and various other appearance of 
ores, fully indicate that coal is not the only valuable which will be discovered in it. 

Thp coal of the Biiooj mine I conceive to belong to the class of ampelites, as nearer 
approaching those of that species in quality and specific gravity ; at the same time it 
partakes of the qualities both of the Kcnnet and Jet coal iii its combustible properties, 
and will he found to answer every purpose either for the forge or steam-engine. As far 
as my judgment serves me, and under all the disadvantages I had in making my experi- 
nients on the coal of the mine, I conceive that there are different classes of coal m k, 
and that a still more superior quality than (he specimen which I had the honour of 
f^lr^^■arding lo Govcnimtnt through the Chief Secretary, will, on sinking a sliaft, be 
disci ivered. The best coal uf the mine I consider to contain, charcoal seventy percent., 
hilumeu twenty per cent., sulphur five per cent., iron three per cent., and calcareous 
eartlia two per cent. The second sort, charcoal sixty, bitumen fifteen, oxyd of iron 
nine, earths ten, sulphur fonr, liydrogcn and carbon acids two per cent. 

I have also observed, on examining the coal heaped fur cartage to Mandavie, that 
tlu;rc was a great proportion of it resembling tlie Welch culm and Kilkenny coal. I 
have obson'cd in tlie Bombay Courier of the "iSth of March last a statement of the 
ex perimentH tried at Bombay on the Cutch coal. I am induced to notice tliat part of 
the letter dgned " A Friend," as regards the failure of the coal, and its combustible 
properties, for two important reasons; as the writer of this letter states that the 
s]K>cicnens " whicli have been obtained under the operations which have been lately 
insiituted, and whidi have been forwarded to the Presidency, do not, we understand, 
give such encouragement to persevere, as on trial ttie Cutch coal has been found to 
Iiuvi- little more than half tlie power, as a combustible body, possessed hy common 
English coal." Now with regard to the specimens forwarded to the Presidency, I heg 
leave tii state they were of the most inferior quality, and not the same coal as now 
worked in the mine. Tlic coal of which these experiments were tried at Bombay was 
from a siratvmi which drove across the face of tlie mine fi'oni its first working, and 
continued dipping gradually to nearly where the fourteenth couples which support the 
timbers of the roof are placed. I am happy that it lies in my power to state this, 
because, on my finit visiting the coal-mine the miners had only driven their level twenty- 
two yania, and no coal had been sent to Bombay beyond fifteen yards, working from 
the mouth of the adit ; their working of the seven yards farther into the face of the 
mine, on my first examining it, was then lying ready for cartage to Mandavie ; conse- 
(|ueiitly . as the best coal was not discovered till the miners had driven their lev^ nearly 
twenty-ftve yards, the experiments uf the beat coal are still unknown at the Presidency. 
1 ;mi willing, however, to admit, tliat the trial at the Presidi'ncy was good and such as 
stated, that the combustible properties of the coal with which it is made only contained 
little or more than lialf the power, as a combustible body, possessed by common 
Englisli coal. What a consideration is this, that the worst description of coal found 



I 



SKLECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 90? 

in the Bhooj mine should on trial be found to contain half the properties of combustion 14 
thatooat sent from England possesses: this simple fact must alone argue in favour of a 
mine just opened, and worked under all the disadvantages of the coal being exposed W, 
for many weeks to the dews of C'utch at niglit, and the stm by day, ere it reaches the 
Presidency; that alone would be suHieient to destroy its best properties. Having 
stated thus much on the inferior coal, I will now say a few words on the best quality to 
the period of my last inspecting the mine, which was the day after the miners were with- 
drawn, and which I feet assured will not admit for a moment a doubt or prejudice 
against its combustible qualities. 

I liad expressed a wish to my friend Colonel Djson of making a party to the coal- 
mine ; and my first visit was with him, C*olonel Mitford, Captain Capon, and several 
other officers, to a pic-nic. After breakfast we proceeded to examine the mine, and 
then looked at tlie coals that were heaped ready for cartage to Mandavie. On closely 
examining the heap I was satisfied that coal was not the only valuable production 
that would be discovered in tlic mine, in consequence of which I paid frequent visits, 
and made several experiments, the result of which have partly been laid before you. 
But to retuni to the pic nic ; I proposed that our dinner should be dressed by a coal 
fire, and I undertook the su])ernitendence of it. A few baskets of coal from the heap 
were brought up, and the fire made, which burnt in the clearest manner, and pre- 
cisely with the same flame and appearance of the finest quality of Kennet coal in 
England. I had some little difficulty in regulating the heat for the country oven, 
from the fierceness of the fire ; but by movnig it nearer or farther from the fire at 
different times, I was sua^essful enough in the baking, and I cannot speak too highly 
in favour of the coal-fire for boiling, roasting, and broiling. The novelty of dressing 
a dinner by a coal fire in India afforded us the higliest delight and m-atification. 
Tliis trial led me to make otlier experiments to ascertain its combustible qualities, 
and also the proportions of its composition, from which I conceive the best coal 
of the mine superior to the English coal, and the secondary' nearly composed of the same 
qualities as the " common pit," the " boney," the " slate," the " bitumen,"tlie *' sea," 
and the ** caking" coal, the whole of which belong to the same species, and mostly 
used in steam-engines, and seldom varying from fifty to sixty ])er cent, of charcoal, 
twenty-five to thirty per cent, of bitumen, the remaining jMirts consisting of ox\*d 
of iron, acididous water, calcareous earths, and such other substances as are generafly 
met within coal-mines. I had nearly forgotten to state one important circumstance con- 
nected with the pic-nic, namely, the fire by which the dinner was dressed was 
made in the open air, merely a few stones making the back and sides of the fire- 

!)lare, and wholly unprotected from the sun either by tree or hedge. Now how 
ar Rnurlish coal would have stood this test would be an experiment worth know- 
ing. Having thus coufidendy spoken of the combustible properties of the Cutch 
coal, I will now make a few observations on the quality of its smoke, wliich, 
in tlie present era of scientific knowledge and invention, ought not to be over- 
looked, as I consider it much superior in quality and specific gravity to the smoke or 
gas from coals generally used for any purpose in England, and would not require that 
process of purification which the English coal undergoes to procure gas, being in itself 
extremely pure ; and from my experiments, I have no doubt, would be found highly 
valuable for every purpose which gas is at this present moment used in almost every 
part of Europe. \ rom the purity of the gas the Cutch coal could not fail to be of 
the utmost importance in steam-navigation, as it would in a great measure increase 
the heat of the fire by consuming its own smoke, and would not foul the flues bv 
incrustation, in the same manner as the smoke from a coal-fire on board a steam- vessel. 
I will now add a few remarks on the method which the mine has hitherto been 
worked, and also of the diflBculties which are likely to arise from its locality, situated 
as it is nearly in the bed of a laige river, which, on the increase of the water in the 

monsoon 



808 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

14 April 1831. monsoon^ will in all probability wash away the couples which support the timbers of 
the roof, or, by bursting the gallery altogether, thereby rendering the mine unfit 

JV. WUdey^Ksq. to work for a considersible length of time. A long and laborious work was con- 
tinued in driving the present level, which might have been saved by sinking a shaft,, 
and working by intersections, as the different stratums were found, which 'might easily 
have been accomplished by the use of the windlas or whims, worked by Didlocks, 
until a satisfactory trial had been made whether the mine was of sufficient importance 
to render the aid of British miners and machinery necessary. As it is well known 
that a horizontal level cannot be driven to any great distance, neither can a single 
shaft, not communicating by one level to another, be sunk to any considerable depth, 
without some contrivance for procuring currents of air, to make up the deficiency of 
oxygen, which is so rapidly consumed by respiration, combustion, &c. , to the want of 
which may be attributed the many dreadful effects of the gases so frequently occuring 
from fire-damp, choke-damp, and other incidents too common in mining ; it is therefore 
most essential that every precaution should be taken to protect the miners by the use 
of safety-lamps, &c., as well as procuring them free ventilation, which can only be 
complete by either sinkin^^ other shafts, or by air-pipes to the surface itself. To 
carry on all the process of mining requires the combination of much skill in the various 
branches of engineering, and it is also the essential part of the miner's art to distinguish 
and select the most advantageous spots for breaking ^ound, where he may not be 
opposed by streams of water, by unwholesome air, or oe cramped for room. Having 
now stated my opinion, as far as my observations and judgment permit me, on the 
Cutch coal, and the working of the mine, it is needless to quote as to the general 

Erinciples of mining, which seldom deviate from those practised in the coal-mines of 
Ingland. But where the want of machinery, the difficulty of procuring timber, the 
locality of the Cutch coal-mine, and other obstacles and (difficulties intervene, it may 
be requisite to deviate from the beaten track to obviate such difficulties, under what- 
ever circumstances they may present themselves. It is therefore for the consideration 
of Government to decide how far it may be advisable to continue the working of the 
mine by the best means that can be adopted on the spot, or to send to Europe for 
scientific miners and machinery. It however may be worth the attention of Govem- 
inent to cause research to be made in Cutch, in the hope of discovering coal at a 
much nearer point of shipment, and I have no hesitation in saying that I think it 
would be attended with success ; but in the event of its failure, I tlunk the cartage of 
the coal from the Bhooj mine may be rendered much easier and less expensive by con- 
structing railways. From the general observations I have made in Cutch, I firmly 
believe, from the various volcanic irruptions, and the many revolutions of nature which 
tliat country seems to have undergone, that almost every production of mineral would 
be found embowelled in its earths. I therefore hope and trust that, under the present 
Government of Bombay, every exertion will be persevered in in making research, the 
result of which may be the first step towards placing that Presidency in the highest 
point of view^ independent of her present great commercial interests, and the advan- 
tages her port must derive from her local situation, in the event of a communication 
with the Mediterranean and Europe by steam navigation, as well as to every port of 
Foreign and Britbh India. 



No. 



I 



-.'3 



"M 



SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 809 

Hi 

No. 1322 of 1826. 

General Department. ^' ' 
To Captain William Wildey, Paymaster of Hib Majeety^s 4th Dragoons. 
Sir: 

I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 12th ultimo^ to 
the address of Mr. Chief Secretary Newnham, biIkI to return to you the thanks of the 
Honourable the Governor in Council^ for the able and encouraging Report whidi you 
forwarded to Government on the coal-mine in Cutch, and for the pumic spirit which 
induced you to imdertake so useful an inquiry. 

I have the honour to be. Sir, 

Your most obedient humble servant, 

Bombay Castle, (Signed) D. Grkbnhill, 

3d July 1826. Acting Secretary to Government. 

229 !• You have spoken of Cutch wool ; to what extent could it be 
attained ? — In any quantity, I should think, as a flock of sheep to any ex- 
tent might be procured in Cutch. 

2292. At what price a head? — I should think from 9s. to Ss. 6d. would be 
the price of the finest sheep in Cutch. 

2293* To what purposes would it be applicable in this country ?— I have 
shewn a sample of it to a gentleman conversant with the wool-trade in Lon- 
don, and he has stated to me that wool of that sort has been very much 
wanted in this country. Though not particularly fine, it is a long staple, 
and would make excellent blankets, carpets, and other coarse articles. 

2294. Is the fieece large ? — It is nearly the size of the sheep of this 
country. 

2295. What is about the average weight? — I should think about four 
pounds and a half to five pounds. The wool is particularly long in staple, 
I should suppose six inches on some parts of it : the sheep are fully as large 
as in England. 

2296. Did you in that country meet with many European cotton manu- 
factures ?— Yes, in the bazars of all the towns I passed through from Bhooj 
to Kaira. 

2297* Are they much worn by the natives ? — ^Yes, much worn by the 
natives, and particularly sought after. 

2298. Do they use any British woollens ? — ^They use British woollen cloths; 
but I have seen horse-cloths and dulees made from the wool in Cutch. 

2299. Did you see any British manufactures ? — I have seen British manu- 
factures of all sorts, both woollen and cotton. I have seen British muslins 
and British shawls worn by natives ; I have also seen the natives give a 
preference to them to the shawls of this country, even at Mandavie, which 
IS a large dep6t for shawls from the Persian Gulf. 

2E 2S00. Do 



210 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

14 April 1831. 2300. Do you conceive the district of Cutch to be capable of mucjb im- 
,-; — provement if capital were employed upon it ? — ^Yes, I have never seen a 

tV. Hildeyy Esq. country where I think there is so fine a field as Cutch for British emigration 

and capital ; in fact, had I not been a Paymaster in the King's service, I 
would have remained in Cutch as a resident ; that is, could I have obtained 
permission and a grant of land. 

2301. What is the extent of the district of Cutch ? — ^It may be about one 
degree wide, north and south, and about two degrees long, east and west. 

2302. Is it a populous district ? — ^Yes, it is, in some parts ; some of the 
villages are very large ; Bhooj, which is the principal city, has an immense 
population. 

2303. Are the natives an industrious race? — They are particularly so, 
much more so than the natives of Bombay or Madras ; they are a very fine 
race of men, mostly six feet high, and nearly the same size as the Bengalese. 

2304. Are the prices of labour low ?— They are. 

2305. Are they generally deficient in capital ?— Quite so. 

2306. Would the introduction of capital on the part of Europeans settling 
there be of great importance to the country ? — It would.' 

2307. Are you acquainted with other parts of India? — I am with 
almost all parts of India, particularly with the Malabar and Coromandel 
coasts. 

2308. Do you conceive that the same principle which you have stated as 
applicable to Cutch, and productive of advantage for the settlement of Euro- 
peans there, would be equally advantageous in other parts of India ? — In 
every part of India I have visited, and particularly on CeyloD. 

2309. What is the climate of Cutch ? — It is extremely fine ; particularly 
cold at night, and in the morning it is more temperate than in any other part 
of India ; we rode constantly about during the heat of the day. Pic-nics 
to the coal-mine were made during the heat of the day ; shooting parties 
were made the same as we should do in this country. 

2310. Are there not very unhealthy winds from the great Run ? — Not that 
1 am aware of. 

2311. Are you aware whether it is considered so unhealthy that the native 
troops are unwilling to go there ? — That might be so to the south of the 
Run, but not to the northward : Mandavie must be extremely healthy from 
its position, lying in the Gulph of Cutch, and being a sea-port. 

2312. Does not Cutch produce large quantities of cotton? — There is a 
great quantity of cotton grown in Cutch, but not in proportion to what it 
might be cultivated : it is particularly fine in the staple and well cleaned, 
much better I should say than any that is grown in the Guzzerat. I have 
brought samples of the Cutch cotton with me to England. 

SIR 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 211 

liA 

SIR CHARLES FORBES, Bart, (a Member of the Committee) examined, g.^ ^ 

2313. Can you give the Committee any information with respect to the 
injury sustained by Mr. Wilkinson, on account of the interference of Govern- 
ment in a contract which he had been allowed to make for the purchase of 
saltpetre in the year 1811 ?— I undertook to bring that case before the Court 
of iToprietors on behalf of Mr. Wilkinson in the year 1819* Upon Mr. Wit 
kinson's return from Calcutta to this country, he called upon me with a letter 
of introduction from Mr. Palmer, of Calcutta, drawing my attention to the 
great hardship of his case, and soliciting my assistance in endeavouring to 
obtain redress from the Court of Directors. I went over the case very fully 
with Mr. Wilkinson, and found it to be one of the most oppressive that I had 
ever heard of on the part of the East-India Company towards individuals. 
It appeared that in the year 1810 the Bengal government resolved to throw 
open the trade in saltpetre, in consequence of representations made to them 
of the great injury to the public and private interests from the existence of 
the monopoly. Accordingly in 1811 the trade was declared to be free, and 
Mr. Wilkinson, with others, entered into contracts for the article to a large 
extent; he was then residing at Gorruckpore. An extended manufacture 
of the article took place in consequence of the freedom of trade and rise of 
price. He engaged to pay seventy per cent more than the prices of the 
Company's commercial resident at Patna. The Bengal government, how- 
ever, thought proper, in 1812, to rescind their previous resolution, and to 
declare the trade in saltpetre shut ; they resumed their monopoly in the most 
rigorous manner, without reference to the contracts which had been entered 
into by Mr. Wilkinson and others, and by which they suffered a most serious 
injury and loss, whilst the Company took to themselves all the advantages. 
MT. Wilkinson remonstrated with the Bengal government for several years, 
but with very little effect ; at length they determined to refer his case to the 
consideration of a committee of five gentlemen, chosen by themselves ; two of 
them Mr. Bayley and Mr. Wood, civil servants of the Company, Mr. Comp- 
ton, their junior counsel, lately appointed Chief Justice at Bombay, and Mr. 
Cruttenden and Mr. Clark, two merchants of Calcutta. Those gentlemen, 
after the fullest investigation of the whole case, came to the unanimous reso- 
lution of recommending to the government to pay to Mr. Wilkinson the sum 
of 288,800 sicca rupees, or £36,100 sterling, as the lowest compensation 
they would have been disposed to give had the matter been left to them as 
arbitrators, although Mr. Wilkinson estimated his loss, or rather deprivation 
of profit, as exceeding £79,000 sterling, and which profit, with much more, 
went into the treasury of the Company. Mr. Wilkinson's suspense and 
anxiety did not however end here ; the Bengal government rejecting the 
decision of its own committee, referred the case to the Board of Trade at 
Calcutta, which recommended diat only 75,000 sicca rupees, or £9,375 
sterling, should be paid to Mr. Wilkinson^ together with interest at six per 

2 E 2 cent. 



liari. 



4ie EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDU AFFAIKS: 

14 Apr!) tSSt. cent from the 11th of October 1816. Mr. Wilkinson, however, did notcon- 
sent to this arrangement; and despairing of obtaining justice in India, 

*"■ ^^^^' returned to England to bring his claim before the Company. The Court of 
" Directors having brought before the Court of Proprietors, on the 24th of 

March 1819, a resolution to the efiect of granting to Mr. Wilkinson the sum 
of 75,000 sicca rupees, for the purpose of its being confirmed by the General 
Court, I moved an adjournment of the questi(»i for fourteen days, in ords* 
to amend the motion by inserting the larger sum to be paid to Mr. Wilkinson, 
agreeably to the unanimous recommendation of the Bengal conunittee, as the 
lowest compensation to which he was entitled ; it being observable ihet the 
said committee was appointed without Mr. Wilkinson being a party to it, or 
his having any share whatever in the nomination of its members. After con- 
siderable discussion, the question of adjournment was put and carried, and 
on the 30th of March, Sir Charles Cockerell and myself gave notice to the 
Court of Directors, that upon the 31st of April following we should move 
and second the larger sum being paid to Mr. Wilkinson, with interest at 
eight per cent from the 30th of April 1817, until paid. Accordingly, on 
the 31st of April, at the adjourned Court, I submitted the amendment above 
stated, and after a very full discussion the Court divided, when there 
appeared for the original motion 33, and against it3S : there being no castr 
ing vote in such cases, a subsequent division took place upon the amend- 
ment of 32 for, and 33 against it, when the Chairman declared that both 
questions were lost. This rendered it necessary to bring the question again 
before the Court of Proprietors, which was accordingly done, after dae 
notice, on the 19th of May 1819, when another very full discussion took 
place. I ought to observe, that in order to meet what appeared to be the 
wish of several Proprietors, Mr. Wilkinson was advised to reduce his claim 
to 180,000 sicca rupees, being the medium between the two sums before 
mentioned, and the motion being framed accordingly, was carried by 59 for 
it to 50 against it. The Chairman and others demanded a ballot* which 
took place upon the 2d of June, when there appeared for the motion 269* 
against it 482, leaving a majority against it of 213. Mr. Wilkinson, tired 
oTthe anxiety and expense he had been exposed to for so long a period, was 
at length under the necessity of receiving what the Company chose to give 
him, being the sum of 75,000 sicca rupees, at Ss. per rupee, £7,500 sterling, 
with interest at six per cent The whole of the proceedings on this cruel 
and oppressive case are fully detailed in the Asiatic Journal for 1819^ 
published by the booksellers to the Company, and ate well worthy the 
perusal of those who can have any doubt of the injurious effects of the union 
of the two characters of sovereign and merchant in the East-India Company^ 
as well to the true interests of the Company themselves as of individuals. 

2314'. Is not Mr. Wilkinson since dead ? — Mr. Wilkinson is uncedead: 
be went to Paris, where he set up a bank ; and died, I think, about a yeat 
ago. 

fi3I5. 




SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. fOS 

S3I5. Are you aware whether any political necessity existed in the year 14. 
1812, inducing the Bengal government to adopt the course which they pur- 
sued with respect to the transaction you have now mentioqed ?<— I am not ' 
ftware of any< It was a period of perfect peace in India, though there had 
been a war with France for many years before. 

2316. Are you aware of any other instance of injuiy arising to trade on 
account of the interference of the government of Inma? — I am aware of 
several instances, but particularly with respect to Malwa opium. I have been 
infomied, that in the end of the year 1828 the Bombay government 
announced to the public that the trade in opium would be thenceforth free, 
upon the payment of a certain duty on the importation of it at Bombay. 
Inis, I believe, arose from their finding it impossible to prevent what they 
call a smuggling trade from Malwa, the territory of Holkar, with Demaun, a 
Portuguese settlement about a degree to the northward of Bombay. In 
consequence of this intimation, the native merchants in that part or India 
were naturally encouraged to go considerably into speculation in the article 
of opium; but soon afterwards, I believe in the course of a few weeks, 
another intimation was issued by the government that the monopoly was 
resumed. This was understood to he in consequence of the Company having 
made contracts for the article, which the contractors declared their inability 
to deliver at the low prices stipulated, in consequence of the trade being 
thrown open ; and it has been stated to me, upon authority which I believe 
to be correct, that the Company having contracted for and received opiqm 
to the value of twenty lacs of rupees, sold the same at a pro6t of 300 per 
cent, which I consider in no other light than a robbery, on the part of the 
East-India Company in their character of sovereigns and merchants, of the 
property of their ally Holkar and his subjects, and of the private merchants 
of India. 

2317. Do you adduce this as an instance of the injury arising from the 
Company sustaining the double character of merchants and administrators 
of the government of the country? — Yes. 

2318. In what way were the Company, as a commercial body, benefited 
by this arrangement?— I think that fully appears by their selling the opium 
for eighty lacs of rupees which they purchased at twenty. 

2319. Did they sell it as a commercial body or as the government? — Their 
characters are united, and I do not see how they can separate them as it suits 
their convenience. 

2320. Are you not aware that the separation is effected, not according to 
the convenience of the Company, but by an arrangement made in many 
respects against the desire of the Company, and under the authority of an 
Act of Parliament ? — They are bound to keep their political and commercial 
accounts separate, but 1 believe it would be exceedingly difficult to separate 
them under the existing system. 

2321. Do 




air C. Forbes, 
BarL 



814 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

14 April 1831. 33SI. Do you conceive that the separation which is enjoined by law of 
the territorial and commercial accounts has any bearing upon the question of 
the supply of opium ? — I cannot see it. I would also mention, with regard 
to their cotton investments for China, that great inconvenience and injury to 
the interests of the private merchants on the western side of India arises 
from the Company going into the market to purchase cotton, the period of 
their doing so, and the quantity they require, being quite uncertain, insomuch 
that the cotton growers and dealers will fix no price, nor enter into no con- 
tracts with the private merchants, until they ascertain whether the Company 
are or are not to come into the market. The 6rst intelligence of this comes 
from the northward to Bombay, announcing that the Company's agents have 
gone into the market, and made engagements for the purchases of twenty 
or thirty thousand bales of cotton, as the case may be, and which it is quite 
understood must be brought down to Bombay, wind and weather permitting, 
by a certain time. The price, of course, immediately rises for what remains 
of the crop, sometimes to an exorbitant rate, and tlie private merchant is 
either obliged to go without his investment or submit to purchase the article 
at a price which ultimately makes it a losing concern to him in the market of 
Canton. It is nothing uncommon for a rise of ten, fifteen, or twenty per 
cent, to take place in the course of a few weeks. 

33^. Supposing any large capitalist were to be engaged in a similar trade 
in purchasing cotton, would not his purchases produce precisely the same 
effect as that of the East-India Company ? — I conceive not, because the pri- 
vate capitalist would go into the market upon a footing with other merchants, 
having only the advantage of his superior capital ; whilst the Company bring 
into the field their weight as sovereigns. It is perfectly well known, that 
when the Company announce that they require a certain quantity of cotton, 
the growers and dealers look upon themselves as bound to supply it. 

2323. Are you speaking of Bombay ? — ^Yes ; but I believe that the e^t 
produced is precisely the same at the other Presidencies. 

2324. Supposing that the Company were not to take advantage of their 
situation of sovereigns, but that they were to go into the market as an indi- 
vidua! purchaser, would not the circumstance of being an individual pur- 
chaser give them an advantage over the sellers, and enable them to buy 
cheaper than a variety of merchants could, who would meet in competition 
in the same market ? — I do not conceive so : but I consider it impossible for 
the Company to lay aside their character of sovereigns bo long as it is united 
with their character of merchants, in India. 

2325. Do you mean that the Committee should understand that the Com- 
pany in their capacity of sovereigns exclude the competition of individual 
merchants, while they are purchasers in the same market?— -The natural 
effect of the union of the two characters is such. I have always considered 
it so, and found it so, during a residence of twenty-two years in India. 

9sm. U 




Rt 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. «15 

2326. Is it your opinion that this is an unprofitable mode of the East- 14 Apr 
India Company having made their purchases of cotton ?— I believe it will be — 

found so, on their own showing, if I mistake not, from what I have seen of '^ ^ 
the Papers lately laid before this Committee, and which exhibit a heavy loss 
upon their trade between India and China. 

9S9rj. In speaking of the effect of the Company's purchases of cotton, are 
you speaking of your own knowledge while you were resident in India, or 
from subsequent information ? — From both. 

2328. Then your evidence is meant to apply to a very late period ? — To a 
very early, as well as to a very late period ; I would say down to the last 
season. 

2329. Are you aware of any case in which the growers of cotton have 
been subject to any oppression on the part of the Company's servants in con- 
sequence of selling their cotton to individuals rather than to the Company? 
— I am aware that such has been the case, from the system of the Company's 
servants insisting upon the growers of cotton taking advances, and com- 
pelling them to deliver their cotton. I allude more to a former period than 
lately ; it may not be the practice at present so much as it used to be. 

2330. Are not private traders at liberty to make advances if they think 
fit ? — No doubt of it, and they generally do so, but at great hazard of never 
getting cotton in return. 

2331. If they make advances, have they not the same legal means of 
enforcing the delivery of the cotton on account of which advances have been 
made as the Company have ? — When you speak of legal means, I am not 
aware of any such means that can be applied by a merchant residing at 
Bombay to compel a grower of cotton in Guzzerat, or in any other district 
out of the Company's dominions, to fulfil his contract. 

2332. Have the Company any means which the private trader has not ?— 
Yes, they have the name and the authority of the Company, which carries 
every thing before it in India. 

2333. Does it not come back to this, that the advantage of the Company 
is derived from the immense amount of their pecuniary means ?-^No, I 
decidedly deny it ; and in explanation allow me to state, that the time has 
been when the Company had not the means of going into the market to pur- 
chase cotton, or any other article of trade ; when they were obliged to apply 
to the merchants of Bombay for assistance to carry on their wars, instead of 
their commerce ; and which assistance, under arrangements entered into with 
the Bombay Government, was afforded to them in a degree, and in a spirit 
of disinterestedness, beyond what perhaps was ever known under similar cir- 
cumstances in any part of the world. I allude to the period of 1803-4 and 
1805, during the war which was carried on by Sir Arthur Wellesley, now Duke 
of Wellington, against Scindia and Holkar, when, in the course of little more 
than two years, the houses of Forbes and Company, and Bruce, Fawcett and 

Company, 



2lG 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



Sir C. Forbes, 

BOTt. 



H April 18SI. Company, supplied their wants, and relieved their difficulties, to the eirtent 

of nearly two miiUotis and a half sterling ; the effect of which assisCftiice 
was, in one short week, to reduce the discount upon the Company's nine-per- 
cent, treasury bills from eight or ten per cent, to one or two |>er cfent«, by 
undertaking, as those houses did, to receive the said paper, and to pass it 
current in their transactions at par, although then at so heavy a discount. 
At this period, so (j;reat was the distress of the Governmenti that many lacks 
of rupees of the Duke of Wellington's bills were lying in the bassaar under 
protest for nonpayment, and the exchanges for Grovernment bills on Calcutta 
had fallen to 85 Bombay rupees for 100 siccas ; the relative intrinsic value of 
the two coins being ]06 Bombay for 100 siccas. 

S334. Was not all this before the last charter ? — It was so. 

2335. Did the houses at Bombay become responsible for the paper circu- 
lated by them ? — They received it in all payments as cash, and passed it as 
cash in all cases when they could do so, having the Company's security ibr it 
of course ; but such was the state of alarm in which the native merchants 
and bankers were, that they would not lend their money to the Company, 
although they readily did so to the two houses before mentioned. 



IS April 1831. 

Sir C. Forbes^ 
Bart. 



JjuntBj 18"* die Aprilisj 1831. 

SIR CHARLES FORBES, Bart, (a Member of the Committee) again 

examined. 

2336. Do you wish to add anything to your evidence on a former day ? — 
I do ; I wish to show the particular motive I had for entering upon the sub- 
ject of the assistance afforded by the Bombay merchants to the Government 
in the years 1803, 180*, and 1805. It might naturally be expected that, on 
the principle of one good turn deserving another, the Company and their 
governments would be disposed to assist the merchants of India in cases of 
emergency, which have happened and may hereafter occur. That such dis- 
position has been evinced by the Government in India upon a late occasion 
there can be no doubt. They afforded, and very properly so, considerable 
assistance lately to the merchants and agents in Bengal, in a manner per- 
fectly consistent with the security of the Company, and greatly to the 
advantage of the merchants, and the public generally. But I understand 
that this has been disapproved of by the Court of Directors, and likewise that 
there is a standing order of the Court, which has been often repeated, that no 
assistance in the way of loans and accommodations should be afforded to the 
merchants ; and on a late occasion, that they had even gone the length of 
proposing to send out orders to India to publish such their determination 

and 




SELECT COMMITTKE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 817 

and orders in the Government Gazette at Calcutta. Whether such orders 18 A| 
have gone, or will go out, I do not know ; but have reason to think that the ... 
good sense and the justice of the majority of the Directors either has pre- " 
vented, or will prevent, so extraordinary a measure, which, if persisted in, 
must necessarily affect the credit of the European merchants and agents in 
India with the native community, already, I am sorry to say, considerably 
shaken, by some recent events which have taken place at Calcutta. This 
was chiefly my object in stating what I did respecting the assistance afforded 
to the Government by the houses in Bombay. I have also to state, that 
pecuniary assistance has at various times been afforded by the merchants in 
India to the Government, particularly during the Mysore wars against Tlp- 
poo Saib. Such assistance was thankfully acknowledged by the govern- 
ments in India, particularly during the administration of the Marquis 
Wellesley; but I am sorry to say, that I have observed a jealousy existing 
on the part of the Directors of the Company towards the private merchants 
in India, and those here connected or trading with that country. In fact, 
the Company entered upon the present Charter with that feeling strongly 
expressed. 1 remember the Chairman of that day saying to the Court of 
Proprietors, " Let the private traders come on, we will soon give them 
enough of it." Accordingly one of their first operations was a speculation 
in claret, to India, to a large extent, which I understood glutted the markets, 
and ended in great loss to the Company, and injury to the private specu- 
lators. 

2337. Have you been during the present charter, and especially during 
the time when Mr. Canning was at the head of the Board of Control, con- 
cerned in any representation tu that Board, as to the interference of the 
Company's agents in the purchase of cotton under the presidency of Bom< 
bay ■ — Very possibly I may, although I have no distinct recollection of it. 

2338. Do you not recollect that the parties were assured that orders had 
been sent out, that the Company should go into the market, if possible, with 
no other advantage than that which they derived from their larger capital ? 
—I recollect that the system of taking the revenue in cotton was abandoned, 
and it was understood that the Company should go into the market for the 
purchase of cotton. 

2339- And that it was the intention of the Government that they should 
have no other advantage than that which they derive from their capital, 
without deriving any assistance from their character as administrators of the 
government ? — As far as possible. 

2340. Were you then desired to state any cases that might occur of op- 
pression or undue interference on the part of the Company or their agents? 
—Very possibly. 

S34L. Do you recollect having occasion to make any such statements? — 
Not 00 my part individually. It may have been done by the agents in Lon- 
2 F don 



218 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

18 Aprii 18S1. don of the houses in India. I have no partnership concern with any house 
in I^ndon. 



Sir C. Forbes, 



2345. With respect to the speculation in wine of which you spoke, can 
you give any further information to the Committee upon the subject? — I 
understood that it proved very inferior in quality; and that some of it was 
sent iiome by Sir Evan Nepean, the governor of Bombay, of a quality so in- 
difibrent, that it was almost unsaleable in India, and did not bring near 
prime cost. 

2S43. Is it your object to show that the Company exported the article 
without due consideration of the profit to themselves, with a view to injure 
the private traders ? — It really seemed to bear that complexion, when 
couiiled with the Chairman's threat, because it was a new article of tratte 
with them. 

2344. Had they been before in the habit of exporting wine ?— No; the 
trade in it was chiefly carried on by the captains and oHicers of their own 
ships, previously to the period to which I allude. 

2345. Is it your opinion that the trade of India would be conducted with 
more security and more advantage, if the sovereign power of India were en- 
tirely debarred from any competition in that trade, other than what may 
arise from any necessity derived from their character as sovereigns ? — That 
has always been my decided opinion, and is at this moment my firm convic- 
tion. I am perfectly satisfied that the separation of those two characters in 
the Company which are now combined, would be attended with incalculable 
good effects, not only to the natives of India, and the merchants there and in 
this country, but also to the Company themselves. Those sentiments I have 
always expressed. I did so during the discussions in the year 1813; I have 
done so upon every occasion since, and I continue to hold them most 
strongly. In saying this, I beg to add, that it is with no hostile feeling to- 
wards the Company or their Directors. I have a great stake in the Com- 
pany's prosperity, I mean in the stock of the Company held by myself and 
iamily,and consequently, so far as my own individual interests are concerned, I 
should naturally be disposed to support all those measures which might tend 
to their real prosperity ; but, whatever effect my opinions upon those subjects 
may have upon the interests of the Company, I consider it of little impor- 
tance compared with the welfare of India and the happiness of its native 
population, to which, if I know myself, I would sacrifice every persona! con- 
sideration. 

23i6. Do not you think it must be attended with great danger to mer* 
chants to carry on general commerce to any great extent, where they are 
liable to be in competition with abody who, from the amount of theircapital 
and from the general character of their constitution, are indifferent mbout 
small profits : — Certainly ; as I know from experience. 

^47. Are you not of opinion that some extent of permisaioD to iada is 

necessarily 




SirCF. 
Ba 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 319 

neceuahly required by the Coiapuny in their quality as sovenigoB io India? 18 April 
— I really cannot see it ; I think not. I know that it is stated by the Com* 
pauy, that they are under the necessity of carrying on what they call » xe- 
mlttance trade from India to this country ; but I have always been of opinion 
that such remittance would be infinitely better conducted through the medium) 
ot' the private trade, than by the Company themselves, even to a larger 
amount than they require for their political payments in England. I tbiok 
it is incalculable the extent to which the trade between this country and 
India might be carried, if the Company were out of it, and a fair scale of 
duties established by Parliament 

9d48. Should you not apprehend that, in consequence of the limited num- 
ber of wealthy houses of trade at the difierent presidencies of India, the 
Company, as a body having sovereign power, would be constantly having 
combinations made against them, by which they would be very much imposed 
upon, if tiicy had not the means of occasionally trading for the purpose of 
their remittances? — I am not aware of such combinations being usual in 
India. I have heard of such combinations in this country on the part of 
capitalists against the Government, but I never heard of them in India. 

9349. Do not you think it is possible that the absence of those combina- 
tions in India may arise from the parties knowing the power of the Company 
to trade themselves, if necessary ? — No, I believe that the. disposition of the 
European and native merchants in India towards the Company is amicable 
and liberal, and would be more so, if all clashing of interests were removed, 
by the Company having no concern in trade in or with India. 

0350, Are you not of opinion, that the most amicable and most liberal 
merchants will, in prosecuting their own trade to the best advantage, now 
and then use those powers which they have of forcing any profit that they 
may be able by combination to force r — I have not been accustomed to con> 
nder it so in India ^ at least during my residence in that country I always 
found the merchants, both European and native, disposed to act fairly and 
liberally towards the Company and each other. 

S35\. Are you therefore of opinion, that if Parliament were by a law to 
prohibit any commercial adventure on the part of the East-India Company, 
It would be a benefit to the general trade of India, and no injury to tne 
Company in the exercise of its sovereign power ?— I am decidedly of that 
opinion ; and that it would be most advantageous to the Company io every 
pant of view, as well as to the native population. 

933i. Is the aasistance which you mention to have been granted liberally 
by the goremment in India to the merchants, but which vou apprehend to 
have been disapproved at home, the sort of assistance whiefa one commercial 
body lends to another, or is it the assistance which is due from the sovereign 
power of a country towards the mercbaots livuig under its rule ?— The 
aarisunoe aUnded to was, I undmtand, given in advances of money upon 
2 F 2 deposits 




Sir C. Forben, 



220 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

i« April 1831. deposits of the Company's and other securities, iiilly protecttog the Company 

from any risk of loss. 

€353. Of what nature was the assistance that was required by the 
merchants at Calcutta? — The Committee are aware that a very extensive 
failure took place lately at Calcutta, the house of Palmer and Co., which 
naturally excited great alarm in the minds of all descriptions of persons 
there, Europeans and natives; a run was consequently made upon many of 
the rao3t respectable houses, one or two in particular, who upon application 
to the Government, received from Lord William Bentinck the most ready 
and handsome assistance, which enabled them, with their own resources, in 
the course of two or three months to pay off nearly a million sterling. By 
these means confidence was restored, and things are, I hope, again going on 
well. I have understood, however, that the assistance thus afforded was 
disapproved of by the Court of Directors, and, as already observed, that a 
proposition was made to order the publication before mentioned in the Cal- 
cutta Gazette. 

2354. What effect would that publication have in India? — I should Uiink 
one of the most prejudicial nature ; as much so as if the Government, or the 
Bank of England, were to publish in the London Gazette, that they would, 
under no circumstances, afford any assistance whatever to the merchants or 
bankers of thi^ country. 

23.55. Will you state how you got this information of an intended pro- 
cedure on the part of the Court ofDirectors ? — Such things will get out ; I 
heard it from more than one quarter. 

QiiSQ. Are not the natives in India in the habit of trusting the merchants 
and agents in Calcutta? — Very much so; all over India. 

2357. Has not the practice of advancing money from the Government of 
Calcutta to the houses of agency prevailed to some extent ?- — I believe so, 
particularly at Calcutta. 

2358. Did not great alarm prevail when the house of Palmer and Co. failed? 
— Undoubtedly. 

2359. Were not many famihes, European and native, all but ruined by it? 
— I am afraid that many were completely so. 

2360. How then are the natives of India to he put upon their guard 
against the expectation, that Government would advance money to the 
houses of agency, unless publicity is given to the order by which that prac> 
tice is condenmed? — I do not conceive that the natives give credit to the 
Europeans upon such grounds, and consequently that such cauUon is not 
necessary, nor called for. 

'J361. Did not the Government advance large sums of money for the 
support of Palmer and Co., which eventually had no effect ?— I am not aware 
of that. 

9!m. Is 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 221 

2362. Is not it the duty of all governments to protect their native popular IB Apr 
tion ? — Undoubtedly it is. — 

Sir (* 

2363. If they have suffered by trusting those houses of agency, is not it g 
incumbent upon the authorities at home, if they shall cease to continue that 
practice, to inform the natives that it no longer prevails ? — I believe the 
Court of Directors might safely leave that between the natives and the bouses 

of agency. 

Q364f. You have stated, that it would be to the advantage of the Company 
that they should cease to trade ; are you aware that evidence was adduced 
last year before the Committee, taking the price of bullion, taking the price 
of bills, and looking also to the question of commerce, the Company have 
rather gained a larger sum by trade than they could by bullion, or by bills, 
or by both united ? — I am not aware of that fact; but I see by a statement 
laid before the Committee a few days ago, that the loss upon their trade 
between India and this country has been very great I do not think the bill 
operations of the Company have had a fair trial. I have oflen recommended 
the plan of opening their treasury here, as well as at Canton, for money 
against bills upon India, by which they might get funds to a large extent, 
and I have no doubt effect their remittances upon fair terms, if not generally 
better than they have hitherto done. 

2365. You have been asked, whether, in case the Company were debarred 
carrying on trade, even a remittance-trade, hard terms might not be forced 
upon them by combinations of the merchants in India ; and you have said 
that you do not think that would be the consequence, by reason of the 
liberality of the merchants of India, and their not being persons that would 
join in such a combination ? — From my experience of ti)em, they must be 
very much altered from what they were twenty years ago. if. they would 
do so. 

2366. Supposing their nature to be changed, and that they should not be 
so liberal as they were in your time, do you think they might not perhaps 
press upon the Government by making hard terms, if the Company were 
prevented from carrying on a remittance-trade ? — ^There is no saying what 
might be the consequences of a change in their nature; 

2367. If they were to be like the capitalists of the Royal Exchange, do 
you think there might not be some combination to force hard terms upon 
the Company in the way of remittance ?— -I do not wish to say any thing to 
reflect upon the capitalists of the Royal Exchange ; but I confess I felt 
rather strongly that a line of conduct should be imputed to the merchants 
of India, which, from my experience, I could not allow they were 
capable of. 

2368. If they were not persons of the liberal views you have stated, could 
you then answer for it, whether there might not be a combination that 
might press hardly upon the Government in the way of remittance ? — It is 
impossible for me to answer such a question. 

2369. If 



^ 'ihir ■ ■■ »-^" tA*. 



m EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

18 April 1881. Sd6g. If there was a combination, vould not their fir&t ot^ect be to raise 
-— ■ the price of remittance as against the Company ? — Possibly it might } but I 

Sir C^^rbeti believe that of late years the number of merchants and agents has been 
much ejctended, and that such combinations, if ever practicable, would from 
the increase of houses at the different presidencies, now be impossible. 

3370. Without any direct combination on the part of the merchants, would 
there not be a natural combination, from the general knowledge there would 
be of the demands of the Company to make remittances? — I think the 
competition would bs so extensive that such combinations would be im- 
possible. By opening the trade to the extent that it has already been opened, 
such a variety of new interests have been thrown into India as to put it out 
of the power of any set of men to combine effectually in that way. 

S37I . Is not the greater p&rt of the business of Bombay in the hands of a 
very few houses? — -The greater part of the money agency is in the hands of 
the old houses, perhaps two or three. 

237$. Would not they be the persons that would have to deal with the 
Company in case they required remittances ? — I do not know that ; they act 
as bankers and agents, more than traders, and are more in the way of buying 
than selling bills, except for the accommodation of their own constituents. 
Tliere are also many new houses at Bombay, which manage consignments 
from this country ; and tlie native merchants carry on a considerable trade 
witti England. 

S373. Would not the natural consequence of this trade of remittance 
ceasing be to create ai) unusual demand for bills on the part of the Company ? 
—^Undoubtedly it would ; but there are such various modes of effecting 
remittances from India tu England, that I think they would always be able 
to accomplish them on fair terms. In the first place, by opening their 
treasury in Leaden hall-street for money against bills upon India at the 
current rate of exchange ; in the next place, by receiving cash, as they now 
do at Canton, for hilts upon India, for their tea investments ; and in the 
third place, by advancing money in India to the merchants trading to this 
country and to Ciiina, upon the security of their goods. By these mean^ I 
should tiiink the Company would eventually have it more in their power to 
dictate terms to the merchants, than the merchants would to the Company j 
particularly as they might, in cases of necessity, have recourse to buUtoo 
remittances occasionally. 

S3T1<. Are you not supposing that the Company's trade to China continues 
upoii the same footing that it is on now ? — Not their trade from India to 
China. I am decidedly against that. What I am anxious to see is, that 
they should altOj^etlier abandon their commercial character in India, and 
carry on no trade, either from India to China, or from India to Europe. 

fiJ7J. What do you say with respect to their trade from China to Europe? 
—I am decidedly of opinion that it ought to remahi with the Company. 

I WIS' 




SELECT COMMITTEE w jus HOUSE OF COMMONS. <S3 

I was 30 eighteen years ago, I have continued so ever ^Qe» and I am 9a nt 18 A 
the present moment. — 

SS76. In order to enable the Company to obtain the rfmittaQcee fvbich 
tbe^ now obtaUit is not your reasoning upon that subject founded ppon tbd 
facdity of their obtaioing remittances through China ?— Undoubtedly^ to a 
certain extent I should regret to see the China trade taken out of its 
present channeL If it were tsken out of the hands of the Conipany, and 
thrown open, I firmly believe that there would be great dagger of losing it 
altogether, 

2377. Supposing a remittance to take place from one country to anothery 
is not it of necessity that such remittance must be loadet either directly ot 
indirectly, in the produce of the country from which the remittance is to be 
made ? — Certainly, 

2378. Supposing that to be the case, would not the remittance be m^dfi 
easier if the trade were larger, and if the terms upon which the trade were 
carried on were cheaper ?— -No doubt ; but in seeking for the extension of 
the trade you might lose it altogether. 

2379. Suppoang the monopoly of the trade of China to be removed from 
the Company, and that that trade was to continue in the hands of the private 
merchants, and that it were to be considerably increased, do you not conceive 
that there would be a greater facility in obtaining remittances from India to 
England than exists at the present moment ? — I should say that would be a 
matter of great doubt ; and that where a certainty of good, to the extent 
which now exists, is within our reach, we should prefer it to running the risk 
of throwing the trade open. 

2380. If the trade is considerably augmented, would there not be a greater 
facility in making remittances from India by that means ? — No doubt of it, 
if you were sure of retaining that trade ; but in making the experiment you 
might lose the trade altogether. 

2881. Is it the habitof otherGovernmeots to make their remittances through 
the medium of trade carried on directly by themselves ? — I believe that, to a 
certain extent, this very objectionable system is in force between the island 
of Ceylon and Great Britain ; and I consider it a most important fact, which 
it would be well worth the attention of the Committee to receive information 
upon, connected as the interests of Ceylon are with those of India generally, 
and trading as they do with each other. I have it in my power to produce 
to the Committee evidence upon this subject, which I consider to be of great 
importance ; I mean the evidence of Mr. Stewart, who was last session a 
member of this Committee, and who, I believe, knows more pf Ceylon, has 
made it more his study, and is able to give the Committee more correct 
information upon it than any person in this country. The government of 
Ceylon carry on a monopoly of the trade in cinnamon tp England, and also 
in other articles on the island. Tbe trade generally is heavily loaded with 
import and export duties, even upon the raw produce of the island. The 
people are discontented ; they are subject to forced labour, under the Dutch 

laW| 



eS4 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

18 April 1831. law, and upon the whole, from what I learn, it is considered the worst colo- 

r~7^ nial government under the sun. 

Bart ' 2382. Did not they find that system in existence at the tithe when the 
King's Government took the administration of it? — ^The system of forced 
labour, compelling the poor people to labour from morning to night, and to 
raise cinnamon and other articles, to be taken from them at Government 
prices. To such an extent is this vile monopoly of" cinnamon carried, that 
if any person has a garden, and a cinnamon<tree happens to spring up in it, he 
is not allowed to consider it his own, nor to remove it, but is compelled to 
nurse and rear it for the Government ; and by the Dutch law, if a man is 
found cutting down a cinnamon-tree, he is liable to have his right hand 
cut off. 

Q383. Are you aware what the nature of the payments at home are, for 
wliich those large remittances of the Company are necessary? — ChieOy for 

flaying the pensions and allowances of their retired servants, and other po- 
itical charges, including interest upon the Indian debt to a certain extent. 

Q384. Are they payments which might by any alteration be made in India 
instead of in England ? — That is a very important question, and I believe 
that such a principle has been in agitation. 

2385. It being slated that the East-India Company having large remit- 
tances to make at home, cannot make them advantageously unless tbej* hare 
the power of trading, if those payments could be tranferred to India, instead 
of making them at home, would not any necessity for the power of trading 
upon that account be done away ? — No doubt it would, and such a system 
might perhaps be introduced in a certain degree prospectively; but it would 
be attended with |;reat difhculty and inconvenience. 



Sir r. For/im, 
Hart. 



Jovis, 21** die jiprilia, 1831. 

Sir CHARLES FOKBKS, Hart, (a Member of the Committee) again 
examined. 

•i\. April 1831. S38G. Do you wish to make any stiitemcnt to the Committee with re- 
ference to your former evidence? — With the permission of the Committee 
I shall state what I conceive will set at rest the question as to any danger of 
combination being entered into by the merchants of India, and particularly 
those of Bombay, to impose hard terras upon the Company in making remit- 
t:inccs to this country, [t is well known that the revenues of Bombaj are 
not sufficient to pay its expenses by a very large sum, at least one erore of 
rupees ; so that, in fact, the Company would have no remittances to make 
from Bombay to this country. All their remittances must be made from 
Bent;al, so long as there is no surplus revenue at Bombay ; consequently 
merchants there would have no opportunity of forcing their bills on Er*^ 
upon the Company, except on such terms as the Company tboughtj 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 225 

to take Uiem. At the same time, if a favourable opportunity should occur 81 
of making remittances to England through Bombay, the Government could 
always diaw on Bengal for that purpose ; and by supplying the private traders ^" 
with advances on consignments to this country, particularly the natives, who 
have shewn themselves much disposed to enter into it of late, they would 
have the power of outbidding the European merchants. Again, the Com- 
pany could always resort to shipments of bullion, by which they would be 
enabled to regulate tiie exchanj^e for bills to the rate of u fair comparative 
lemittance. 1 would also beg to add, in explanation of the opinion 1 have 
given with regard to tlie Company withdrawing from the trade between 
India and Enfrland and China, that my object is, that they should abandon 
their commercial dealings of every description in India, their monopolies and 
all, leaving the trade, internally and externally, entirely in the hands of the 
private merchants, European and native, upon condition of their retaining 
the China trade. 

2387. The whole China trade, or the tea trade exclusively? — I should say 
the tea trade to England exclusively, if it shall appear that the trade in other 
respects might be thrown open without the risk of losing it altogether, which 
I very much doubt. 

2388. Does your opinion of the power of the Company to resist combina> 
tion upon the part of merchants in the price of bills of exchange, depend at 
all upon their retaining exclusive possession of the tea trade of China? — 
I think so, undoubtedly, except so far as they might protect themselves by 
bullion remittances, which tliey would have always in their power, but not 
perhaps to so great an extent as they would require. As I have already 
stated, I think the Company ought to continue to receive money into their 
treasury at Canton for bills upon India, whicli they now do to a large amount, 
and bring home those funds through their tea investments, and also in bullion, 
as I learn they have done this season, to the extent ot £150,000, being, 
I believe, the first time that they have brought home bullion from China. 

2389- When you state that there would be danger of losing the trade from 
China, do you take into youi' consideration that a very large and increasing 
trade is carried on i:t the present moment by the Americans with the 
Chinese, without the intervention of any factory such as that which exists 
under the direction of the East-India Company ? — Yes, I am quite aware 
of that 

2390. Are you also aware that a very large trade is carried on by the 
private traders between India and Canton ? — No doubt of it. 

2S91- Has any serious interruption to either of those trades occurred 
since they have grown to the height they have now attained? — I believe 
many years ago an interruption tod£ place, in consequence of one of the 
country ships having accidentally killed a Chinese in firing a salute i and 
some yean ago an Aioericaii seaman accidentally killed a Chinese ; in both 
2 G which 




226 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 April 1881. ^hich cases, the innocent men were delivered up to the Canton government, 

■Sir C Forbes, and inhumanly strangled. 

Bart. 2392. Have not the interruptions to the trade carried on by the Company 

at Canton been more frequent and of longer duration than any interruptions 
which have occurred in the trade carried on by Indian free traders, or by 
the A mericans ? — It may be so ; but I do not judge so much from what has 
taken place as from my apprehensions of what might take place in the event 
of an unrestricted opening of the trade, from the peculiar character of the 
Chinese, knowing it as I do. I was there forty years ago, and believe they 
are the same now as then, in every respect. 

2393. In the event of the Company discontinuing their operations as 
traders in India, in consequence of the small number of commercial houses 
of opulence, might there not be a danger of facility being given to com- 
bination, which would throw difficulties in the way of the Company's remit* 
tances to Europe, and in that event do not you think it probable that the 
number of such houses in Calcutta would gradually increase ? — Undoubt- 
edly ; in India generally. 

2394. Must not the consequence of that necessarily be, that that danger 
would be proportionably diminished ? — Certainly ; if under any circum- 
stances it could exist. 

2395. If there was a considerable demand for bullion, by way of remit- 
tance, would not the price of bullion of course rise ? — No doubt. 

2396. Would not dear bullion, that is, bullion the least above the ordinal^ 
price, together with the cost of freight and insurance, make a bad remit- 
tance, generally speaking ? — I believe, at present, it is the safest and the 
best The current silver coin of India makes a fair remittance, and the 
gold a better ; but it is not always procurable. 

2397. Is not the exchange now lower than it ever was before r — It per- 
haps was never lower than it is now. 

2398. Do you remember the exchange at Calcutta upon England at 
is. Sd. the sicca rupee ? — I doubt not it may have been so, or even higher, 
because I have known it at that rate for the Bombay rupee, which is sn 
and a half per cent below the value of the sicca. 

2399. Is not the remittance from Calcutta now Is, lOrf. the sicca rupee? 
— Perhaps the average exchange may be about Is. lid. ; but I have beard 
of considerable remittances lately in good bills upon the first houses in 
London, at 2*. 

2400. Is not the lowness of the exchange an inducement to make remit- 
tances in bullion ? — No doubt of it. 

2401. If the exchange was to rise, would not the remittance in bullion be 
less favourable ? — Comparatively so, of course ; but a remittance in the cur"- 
rent coin would remain the same. It must be kept in mind, that the higtter 

the 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. «27 

the rate of exchange the more favourable for the Company as remitters, I 21 Ap 
mean the more British money given for the rupee ; and should it fall below *■ 

m bullion remittance, they would always have it in their power to resort to ^^ ^ 
that medium, so that they could never be compelled to take a remittance 
on more unfavourable terms than what bullion or coin would give them. 

2402. You must add freight and insurance ? — Yes, although the Com- 
pany never insures ; but, adding freight and insurance, and even commis- 
sion, it is found advantageous by private merchants and agents to send 
home bullion from India and China, and to draw against the proceeds at 
the present low rate of exchange for bills. 

2403. If the Company were to give up trading, and not have the means 
of making remittances in bills, and to remit in bullion, would not the 
demand for bullion be more than it is now ? — Of course ; but the greater 
the demand the greater the supply would be. Bullion and dollars pour 
into India from all quarters ; from China, from America, and, within the 
last eight or ten years, they have been sent from England to India, and 
would be so again, should commerce improve, and the exchange turn against 
England as heretofore. 

2404. Do you think that bullion remittances could at all times be 
effected ? — At all times, in bullion or coin. 

2405. And that without straitening the circulation inconveniently ? — Yes, 
particularly from Calcutta, where they have bank-paper in circulation ; at 
JBombay there is none, and I hope never will be. 

240G. Then no combination of merchants could subject the Company to 
any greater expense than that of remitting bullion? — Certainly not ; whilst 
they would have it in their power to avail themselves of all favourable 
opportunities of making remittances by advances to the private merchants 
on shipments of goods, which they are making now, and on terms, I believe, 
more favourable than the houses at Calcutta can afford to make them. 

2407* Then you do not contemplate they should make all their remit- 
tances in bullion, but only that they should have it in their power as a check 
against combination on the part of the merchants ? — Yes ; or rather that 
they should take whichever suited best 

2408. Supposing subsidies were paid by this country to a foreign coun- 
try, and they were habitually continued, do you think it would be necessary 
that tlie Government of England should become traders ? — No, I dp not 
think so ; and I believe that never has been the case. 

2409* When you say that the Company should abandon all their trade 
and monopolies, do you allude also to the government monopolies of opium 
and salt ?— Undoubtedly ; I cannot draw any distinction between their trade 
and . their monopolies, nc»r between the Company as sovereigns, and the 
Company as merchanta. 

8 G 8 2410. Are 



228 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 April 1831. 2410. Are you not aware that any profit that the Company make upon 
their trade goes to tlie payment of their dividends, and any profit they make 

'*'"' ^ IT*"' upon the salt and opium does not go to the dividends, but that it jfoes to a 
fimd which is more peculiarly for the benefit of the government ?— I believe 
it is much the same thing whether It goes into the right or left-hand pocket. 

2411. Do you conceive that it would be possible, in any other way than 
by monopoly, to raise, as it was raised in 1S29-30, £1,931,000 from salt, and 
£1.757.000 from opium ? — I think it might be raised, in due time, to per- 
haps as large, if not a larger amount, through a much less objectionable 
medium, through the medium of increased and increasing revenues and cus- 
toms, upon an increased and flourishing trade, carried on by an improved 
and improving population, having perfect confidence that they woula in no 
way be interfered witli by the Company in their operations, either agricultural 
or commercial i and that under such a system, if happily it shall be intro- 
duced, the prosperity of India would rise to a degree incalculable, and con- 
sequently in every way tend to the advantage as well as the credit of its rulers. 

2412. Do you mean that this revenue of customs would be raised upon 
those particular articles, or that there would follow such a general improve- 
ment of the condition of the people as would increase the general revenue 
of customs ? — Partly both. 

^-tl3. Are you aware that the profits of the customs now are not more 
than one-fiflh of the joint amount of the salt and opium monopolies P — It is 
very probable that may be the case ; the greater the latter, the leas the former. 

2414. Then you conceive that the customs revenue could be raised to six 
times its present amount ? — I can only state, as an example in favour of my 
argument that, when I went to India forty years ago, the duties were six 
per cent, upon all imports throughout India. Lord Cornwallis very judi- 
ciously lowered them to three per cent., and I believe in the course of eight 
or ten years after that reduction, the revenue was more than doubled. 

2415. Do you think it would be politic to reduce the customs below two 
and a half per cent., which is the present rate of duty, with benefit to the 
revenue ? — Perhaps not ; on the contrary, under a more liberal system gene- 
rally they might be raised. 

241G. Then the same advantage could not now be derived from those 
regulations of Lord Cornwallis, reducing the duties? — No ; but I am speak- 
ing with reference to the monopolies, that from the enormous price of the 
article of salt, for instance, in Bengal, it is beyond the reach of many of 
the natives. It is well known that many of the natives cannot afford to buy 
salt to eat with their rice. 

2417. In what manner, by the abolition of the salt monopoly, would you 
increase the amount of the receipt of the customs? — In Bengal I would 
abandon the salt-works altogether, and allow it to be imported on paying a 
duty ; it could afford to pay a handsome duty, and would yield a hatidaome 

revenue 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 480 

reveoue io a most unobjectionible manner : we could even Bend it from this 21 A 
country, in ships going to India, which instead of going, as they now do, 
almost empty* would load with salt. ^"' ' 

S4I8. Is there any other article, by the importation of which in place of a 
monopoly in the interior, you would propose to increase the revenue 7^They 
might still lay an excise upon the salt, upon opium, and upon tobacco^ as 
they do in this country, and upon spirits : they might collect a revenue in 
the shape of an excise instead of through the monopoly. 

2419- Would it not depend upon the amount of that excise-duty whether 
it was an exchange that was favourable to the people or not ? — No doubt it 
would ; and I am aware that it would be attended with great expense in the 
collection. 

3420. Do you think it would be safe to destroy those monopolies upon the 
speculation of increasing the revenue of customs ? — Indeed, I think it would 
be most desirable at any rate to attempt it, and it might be done gradually ; 
they might by degrees, for instance, relax the rigid monopoly of salt io 
BengjI, and then again upon the coast of Coromandel. 

2421. If you were to import a great proportion of the supply of salt for 
Bengal from Madras, would not the prosperity of the people of the Madras 
presidency, of course, be increased by the additional labour? — No doubt. 

24SS. And in proportion to that, would not the population of Bengal that 
now exist upon their labour in preparing salt, be diminished ? — From all I 
can understand that is a most objectionable mode of employing the people 
of Bengal : it is, in fact, worse than the worst description of slavery. But 
there are other gentlemen more competent than I am to speak upon that 
subject 

^2S. Supposing there was a conriderable import of salt from Madras into 
Bengal, do you not conceive there would be an export of rice or some other 
artiae from Bengal to Madras ? — Unquestionably there would, in 
proportion. 

2i24i. And therefore each province producing that which they could 
produce with the greatest advantage, would tend to the benefit of the whole ? 
—No doubt of it, and that is the principle upon which I recommend the 
alteration of the system. 

2425. What is the enhancement of the price of salt above the cost at 
which it might be produced in consequence oi the monopoly ^— I have beard 
800 to 1,000 per cent, in Bengal. 

2426. Is not the system of producing salt at the preBent moment at the 
mouth of the Gan^^ a very oppressive servitude on the part of those that 
produce it ? — I have always heard so, in a degree far more oppressive than 
the wont description of slavery in the West-Indies. 

4M7. It •oofc tbe irtide produced by that means of a very inferior 

descriptioD 




Bart. 



830 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

'ii April 1831. description ? — I believe it is far inferior to the Coromandel C0BSt-«aIt, or to 

the Bombay salt. Both shores produce a very fine salt, they are in &ct 

*'*"' d'J?'**'' covei-ed with it : and on the Madras side it is extreme cruelty that a man 
cannot go to the sea-side, and take a handful of salt for his own use, .without 
being subject to a heavy penalty. 

8428. Do you mean to say that the persons concerned in the manufacture 
of salt are in the power of their masters, in the same way that the slaves in 
the West-Indies are? — Perhaps it would be well for them if they were 8(^ 
they would be better taken care of. 

3439. They are not then in the power of their masters in the same manner 
tliat the slaves in the West Indies are?— I believe they are not actually 
slaves,but they are so in every thing but the name. 

2430. Will you state how ? — I believe they are compelled to work for very 
low wages in the salt-pits, which is the most destructive to the health of man 
that can be imagined. 

3431. Could a power be used to compel them to labour in the salt-pits as 
the slaves are compelled in the West-Indies to labour ? — I have no doubt 
that it may be, and has been done. 

3438. Do you know it ? — Not of mv own knowledge of those 8alt-pits> 
because I have never been there : but that the rattan, which is, perhaps, not 
much preferable to the whip, has been used in former times to force labour 
in India, I have no doubt, though it may not be the case now : it has been 
used even to the weavers. 

3433. Do you not know that any person to whom such treatment was 
applied would find redress in the courts, according to the regulations of the 
East-India Company ? — Perhaps so ; but it is a very tedious and a very 
expensive thing to get redress in any country, and more especially in India. 

8434. Have you any knowlege upon this subject, except from what you 
have heard ? — 1 have not ; but I have no doubt of it. 

3435. Was there not, formerly, considerable trade carried tm between 
Madras and Bengal, in the import of salt into Bengal, and the export of 
rice ? — Certainly ; in my time there was, and I hope it is not yet altogether 
gone. 

8436. Are you aware that that has fallen off? — I believe so. 

3437- Do you know on what account that has fallen off? — I suppose on 
account of the heavy duty on salt in Bengal, which has prevented the trade 
being carried on. 

3438. Does not the duty amount almost to a prohibition ? — I believe it 
does ; that is to say, they are obliged to deliver the salt to the Company, 
and get so little for it as to be hardly worth the carriage. 

8439. Is not it limited to a certain quantity? — Undoubtedly it is; that is 
thespirit of all the Company's monopolies. If they were to supply the market 

equal 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COifMONS. 281 

equal to the demand, at a fair price, there is no saying to what extent the 21 April J 

consumption would go: in the same manner that if you would allow the 

importation of sugar here from India at a fair duty, I think it is incalculable Sir C. F<n 

the quantity that would be consumed, by bringing it within the reach of the ^^'^' 
consumer. We see this in coffee, and in every article upon which the du^ 
has been reduced. 

2440. Are you of opinion that the destruction of those monopolies, and 
the opening of the commerce in India, would consist with the present system 
of regulations respecting access to India ? — I confess that I am not aware of 
any great difficulty in obtaining access to India on the part of Europeans 
from this country. It may be otherwise generally, but in any case in which 
I have had occasion to apply to the Court of Directors, I have never found 
the least difficulty in obtaining permission. At the same time I should cer- 
tainly be for all restrictions and difficulties being removed, as much as pos- 
sible, consistently with a due regard to the welfare of the native population 
and the safety of the government 

241'1. You are understood to be of opinion, that the revenue that would 
fall off in consequence of the destruction of these monopolies would be sup- 
plied by increased commercial speculation ? — Undoubtedly, in due time. 

3442. Do not you consider the present system regulating the access to 
India as an obstruction in the way of commercial speculation ? — No doubt } 
any obstruction whatever must operate in a certain degree against the exten- 
sion of trade. 

2443. Are not you acquainted with parts of the country in which there 
are productions of coal and iron, and other things, which would be worked 
and brought into action if the settlement of Europeans was allowed ?— I have 
no doubt of it. Indeed, I can see no objection to the settlement of Euro- 
peans of a certain description in India. I would not be for throwing open 
the sluice altogether, although my impression is, that even that woulu be 
attended with little or no inconvenience ; but still I should be disposed to 
adopt such a measure with great precaution, because India is already fully 
peopled. 

2444. Do you think the natives of India would like the unrestrained ad- 
mission of Europeans into the interior ? — As far as I can form an opinion, I 
should certainly think not ; but I do not apprehend that any such concourse 
of people would resort to India as is generally supposed ; I think the number 
would be very limited. It is a long and expensive voyage to India ; very 
few, comparatively speaking, would be able to find their way there, except 
men of capital and respectability, from whom no danger nor inconvenience 
whatever could arise. 

2445. Would not great benefit accrue to India from the introduction of 
capital and skill in its cultivation ? — No doubt ; particularly from the intro- 
duction of European skiU. Hie native capital is coniiderable, if they had 

encouiageinent 



282 EVIDENCE ON EAST JNDIA iAEFMRS : J : 37 ? 

21 April 1831. encouragement to apply it, though I am afhdd it faas lic^ been indreafblg^ of 
•~". late years. ■"-■ ■= - -.^^- ^^,^ f^i 

Sir C hwhes 

jlart ' 2446. To what cause do you attribute that ?-^So far as 1 cats )efiiti>^ fte 
natives are over- taxed ; their agriculture and internal commeiH!^ 'aii^p ^^• 
taxed. I am afraid that the increase of revenue has always been; the;<Shief 
object of the governments in India. The Company cariy on wars^ tod incur 
large additional debt ; they then tax their subjects, and cut Gbwn':4to^Jala- 
ries of their servants, in order to pay the interest of that debt, aiwiiys exofeflt- 
ing the allowances of their governors and others high in ranl^ whj^jh^are 
never touched, except it may be to increase them. , , ..-^v 

2447* Are you aware that an attempt was lately made at Bengalt oxtthe 
part of some Europeans, to get up a petition from the natives agaibst.tbe 
settlement of British subjects in India? — I have heard so. ;:^^:; 

244S. You have stated, that the Company has increased the taxatioii^^f 
India, in consequence of the expense which they have incurred in war#; do 
you refer to any particular instance in which taxes have been increased under 
those circumstances? — I have stated, that the natural consequence of 
carrying on wars and increasing their debts is to raise additional revenue and 
reduce the expenditure I believe I am borne out in that; and I will now 
state to the Committee an instance which came to my knowledge a few days 
ago of a proposed tax on imports into India, which will, I think, strike them 
very forcibly. I have in my hand a copy of a letter signed by W. H. Banqer- 
man. Officiating Secretary to the Finance Committee at Calcutta, dated. 0ie 
15th of November 1830: it is a circular which appears to have Jiegn 
addressed to the merchants at Calcutta to this effect : . /. 



■. > 



*' Circular from the Finance Committee, 

" Gentlemen : 

"With reference to my letter to your address dated the 28th of July last^ I am directed 
by the Finance Committee to state, that under the information they at present posset, 
they have it in contemplation to recommend that a general duty of ten per cent^^be 
imposed on the import by sea, at the three presidencies, of the several metals uotdd in 
the margin,* and to request that, if any serious objection to the proposed modifickfion 
oi' the tarilT occur to you, you will favour them with a statement of the gTQoiids of 
your opinions. , , . 

*' I have tlic honour to be^ Gentlemen, 

■■ ■• . 

t€ Calcutta '* Your most obedient servant, . ; . .. 

*' Finance Conunittee Office, (Signed) " W. H. Bannei|MA|Nf^ 

" 15 November, 1830." '* Officiating Secrefaiy." 

That is a duty which, I should say, would be almost tantamodilt td a 
prohibition ; at least, it must greatly tend to injure the trade in those' metilk 
from this country to India. 

* Copper, iron, lead, spelter, tm. 



i^jJk 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 233 

2449. Is not it probable that the opinion you have now expressed would 21 A| 
be conveyed to government by those merchants ? — It is very probable. I 
only produce this as a proof of the lengths to which they are disposed to go ^^ ^ 
to raise revenue. 

24>50. If they should get such an increase of their customs as to enable 
them to relax their monopolies, would not it be a good thing ?— -If they 
would renounce their monopolies altogether, I think the trade might then be 
able to afford a higher rate of duty. 

2451. With the exception of this, which is an instance in which the govern- 
ment consulted the merchants with respect to a measure of taxation, are you 
aware of any instance, during the present charter, in which the taxation has 
been raised ? — Not upon the commerce ; and I believe this could not be 
carried into efiect without the sanction of the Court of Directors and the 
Board of Control. 

2452*. Are you not aware that, during the same period, orders have been 
sent from home, which have been obeyed, for considerably reducing the 
custom-duties, and also some of the inland-duties ? — I am glad to hear it. 

2453. Do you think that the same amount of revenue could be raised by 
any other arrangement of the taxes, which would press less upon the 
resources and the industry of the country ? — I have already stated my opinion 
to be, that the revenue generally, in every branch, would increase by a 
relaxation of the government monopolies and imposts, according as the 
prosperity of the country advanced. It could not be expected all at once to 
produce that effect ; it must be allowed time to work. The evil has long 
existed, and it cannot be expected that the consequences should cease sud- 
denly ; but that a gradual amelioration would take place I have not the least 
doubt, and to the full extent of my most sanguine wishes. 

2454. When you stated that no other tax had been raised since the grant- 
ing of the last charter, are you not aware that there was a stamp-tax imposed 
upon the inhabitants of Calcutta in the year 1827? — ^Undoubteoly. I thought 
the question referred to customs. The stamp-tax is a highly objection- 
able one, and has created more dissatisfaction than anything that ever 
occurred in India. In former times, it would have gone far to have produced 
an insurrection in the country. I have heard that an attempt was made 
many years ago to impose a house-tax, which was effectually resisted by the 
natives of Bengal. 

2455. Was not a similar tax ordered to be imposed upon Madras and 
Bombay? — Orders to that effect were issued, but Sir Thomas Munro 
declined carrying them into effect at Madras, and they were arrested in their 

3 oration at Bombay^ by the refusal of Chief Justice West to register the 
overnment Regulation laying on the tax, one of the many good conse- 
quences which resulted to the island of Bombay from the administration of 
that able, upright, independent, but ill-used judge. 

2 H 2456. Was 



23* EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

31 April 1831. 3456. Was this stamp-duty altogether a new tax, or did it consist in the 
~; — ; extension to the presidencies of taxes previously existing elsewhere i^--I 

Sir C. Forbes, believe SO, in Bengal ; but it is equally obnoxious wherever it exists. 

24.17. 1*0 you not believe, that considering the present resources of India, 
the taxation of that country is carried to its fullest possible extent?— I am 
afraid, generally speaking, far beyond its power to bear, and the consequence 
is a gradual falling off in Uie prosperity of its population. 

2'i5S. Are you not aware that some of the most important instances of 
the suspension of the trade of the East-India Company at Canton were on 
account of objects in which the private trade and the foreign trade were 
equally concerned with their own, namely, the reduction of the number of 
Hong merchants, and other acts of general oppression on the part of the 
Chinese government ? — I have no doubt of that ; and I believe the late inter- 
ruption of the trade arose from an interference with the Chinese government 
on the part of the Company's supercargoes, at the instance of the Bombay 
government, who recommended to their consideration a memorial from the 
merchants of Bombay upon those subjects : and this brings to my recollec- 
tion, that by the last accounts from China the trade was again very nearly 
stopped, in consequence of a fatal accident which happened in a rencontre 
between an American Captain and two Parsees, natives of Bombay, who had 
gone tliere in a private ship in the employ of private merchants. ■ The super- 
cargoes being called upon by the Chinese government, very properly refused 
to deliver up the men, and the consequence was a threatened stoppage of 
thetrade, which, but for the vigorous and firm conduct of the Company*s 
supercargoes, would no doubt have taken place. The two Parsees were sent 
back to Bombay to be tried there. 

2459. Are you aware of any memorial that has recently been presented to 
the Board of Trade in this country by the East-India agents in London, 
respecting the duties? — I have in my hand copies of two such memorials, 
dated the 8tb and the 31st of March 18S1, addressed to the Lords Coin- 
missioners of the Board of Trade, upon the subject of the reduction and 
modification of the duties on East-India goods, which I beg permission to 
put in. 

[ The same •were delivered in, and are as follows : ] 
Tu the Ri^ht Hon. the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Privy Council forTrade. 

The undersigned Merchants of London, interested in the trade with India, crave 
the consideration of your Lordships to the following Statement: 

The reduction and modification of duties, and the fixing of them on certain ad- 
mitted principles, being now of universal interest and discussion, permit us to draw 
yuiir Lordships' attention to the predicament in these respects of articles of Eest-India 
produce. For this purpose we enclose a list thereof, with the market prices of each 
annexed, and their respective rates of duty. Comparing the duty with the pricej 
will be seen that the former is in many instances exorbitant ; but a grievance ctnnii 
to all is, that they can ouly be imported into a few of the ports of the United King- 
dom, 




SELECT COMMITTEE op thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 935 



dom, and cannot be removed thenco to other places coastwise, or in the interior (as 
goods from other countries can), without the aforesaid duties being in the first in- 
stance paid. 

This is a regulation which materially impedes distribution and consumption, and 
consequently affects in proportion the receipt of revenue. We would notice, for ex- 
ample, three articles, w-hich may be considered comforts, if not necessaries of life to 
the poor, viz. tea, sugar and pepper. At present these commodities cannot be con- 
veyed from the ports of landing to other ports or places not privileged to receive India 
goods, without the duties thereon being first wholly paid. 

The evil of this regulation is threefold : 

First, The trader is obliged to advance a sum of capital of from 100 to 400 per cent, 
above the cost-price of the articles before they can be distriblited in the kingdom for 
general consumption. 

Secondly^ The price to consumers is enhanced, not only by the great amount of the 
duty, but by the profit, wliich must be returned on the employment of a capital twice 
or h\c times as large as would otherwise be necessary ; and. 

Thirdly, These enhanced prices operate as a constant incentive to the grossest adul- 
terations. 

The ports of the United Kingdom into which India goods are now received and 
warehoused, are only twelve in number ; viz. 



:i 



Bristol. 
Goole. 
Hull. 



Liverpool. 

London. 

Glasgow. 



Greenock. 

Leith. 

Port Glasgow. 

The general warehousing ports of the Kingdom are sixty-six ; viz. 



Dublin* 
Belfast, and 
Cork. 



Arundel. 

Barnstaple. 

Bideford* 

Boston. 

Bridgewaten 

Bristol. 

Chepstow. 

Chester. 

Chichester. 

Colchester. 

Cowes. 

Dartmouth. 

Dover. 

Exeter. 

Falmouth. 

Gloucester. 

Goole. 



Grimsby. 

Hull. 

Ipswich. 

Lancaster. 

Liverpool. 

London. 

Lynn. 

Maldon. 

MUford. 

Newcastle. 

Newhaven« 

Plymouth. 

Poole. 

Portsmouth. 

Rochester. 

Rye. 

Southampton. 



Shoreham. 

Stockton. 

Sunderland. 

Swansea. 

Weymouth. 

Whitbv. 

Whitehaven. 

Wisbeach. 

Yarmouth. 

Aberdeen. 

Borrowstoness. 

Dumfries* 

Dundee. 

Glaa^w. 

Grangemouth. 

Greenock* 



Leith. 
Montrose. 
Port Glasgow. 

Dublin. 

Belfast. 

Cork. 

Coleraine. 

Drogheda. 

Dundalk. 

Galway. 

Limerick. 

Londonderry. 

Newry. 

Sligo. 

Waterford, 

Wexfofd. 



very many other towns and places in the interior and along the coast, having 
regular establishments of customs or excise. 

There is consequently no good reason why East-India goods should not be removed 
under bond from one town to any other^ wWe sudi an establishment of officers now 
tajMU, and certainly none indhy uiey should not be removed in like manner, and to 
such porta and placei aa is pmnittod to all oiber foreign merchandise. Were this 
to be alloved^ aod the diitiei iit tlie fiine tima od the bdore-mentioned articles to be 
reduced, theie cant we aubnitj be no doubt thai flie luHne consumption thereof 

S H S would 



236 EVroENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

21 April 1831. would be vastly increased, the reronue improved, and the comrorts of the lower aitd 

'" middling classes greatly promoted. 

Sir C. Forbet, Traders (country dealers more particularly) would also be greatly relieved by being 

Bart. enabled to purchase and to keep up sufficient stocks of these articles witii a fbr less 

outlay of capita]. The question of capital, indeed, is of so much importance in the, 
consideration of this matter, seeing that small dealers universally, evM* since the 
memorable alteration of the currency, can no longer look for aid to those artificial 
means they formerly derived from banks, and a redundant paper circulation. 

It is further obvious, that the extension of this privilege to articles employed !n the 
manufactures of the country would be of essential use in promoting productive in- 
dustry. Finally, the privilege has been enjoyed for some years by Londonderry. 

The experiment may therefore- be said to have been already tried, and to have 
succeeded, but no good reason, certainly no apparent reason, exists for exduuvely 
limiting the indulgence to this single port. 

(Signed) Baring, Brotkert, ^ Co, Palmeri, Mackillop, ^ Co. 

Jnglis, Forbes, ^ Co. Rickard*, Maekintotk, ^ Co. 

Cockerell. TraU, ^ Co. SmaU, Colqukoun, * Co. 

Fairlie, Bonham, ^ Co. Qrtgion, MelviUe, ^ Knight. 

Fletcher, Alexander, ^ Co. Rmoion, HoldtwtrtA, ^ Co. 
Finlay, Hodgson, ^ Co, 

London, 8th March 1831. 



To the Right Hon. the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Privy Council for Trade. 

The undersigned Merchants of London interested in the Trade with India, in 
reference to their interview with your Lordships on the 8th instant, b% to offer 
such remarks as they deem likely to promote the reduction or modification of 
duties ou articles of East-Indian produce. 

The present scale of duties on East-India goods shows a variation from less than 
I per cent, up to 400 per cent, on the present value of many important commodities ; 
ou s^nte minor articles the duty varies from 1 per cent, to 1,000 per cent., and in one 
trifling instance the duty b 3,000 per cent. It is evident such a scale requires reriuon, 
equally for the benefit of the revenue, and the encouragement k£ trade. 

The inconsistency of the present scale of duties is apparent on the sli^test inspec- 
tion of the table. Why should unrefined borax, which is used extensively in pot- 
teries and in the smelting of metals, pay a duty of 50 per cent., whfle the next article 
in the list, camphor, a drug, pays ouly 10 per cent.? Cinnamon, classed with 
luxuries, pays only 6 per cent. ; pepper, an article of general consumption, pays 400 per 
ceut. ; shell-lac, made from seed-lac, the refuse of lac-dye, and of which tne coaaump- 
tiun is increasing in various branches of mauufacture, is charged a duly of 20 per cent. 
ad eat., while lac-dye is charged only a duty of 5 per cent., also ad vol. 

Accompanying the present remarks is a list, marked (A.), of articles subject to 
excessive duties ; to each article is annexed the mariiet value, with reference to whidi 
a table of new duties, marked (B.), is submitted. Under the existing duties, the 
amount of rewnue on all these articles is only £40fiOO (ezclurive of ^95,000 
pepper), and with the proposed moderate duties an ineieue of conaumption may i 

fairly 




SELECT COMMITTEE or tri HOUSE OF COMMONS. 237 

Tairly ocpected, to counterbalance any Ueficiency arising from bo desirable an altera- 
tiou. 

A fiud duty ii considered preferable to an ad vol. duty ; the revenue officer not 
being i-ompetent to estimate correctly the value of g;ooda, Govemment is frequently 
defrauded, and the fair trader made to sustain an unequal competition with those who 
do not scruple to take advantage of the customs, by declaring a fictitious value. In 
the new scale now submitted, the guide has been to follow several of the established 
rates, by charging about 5 per cent, on materials of manufacture, 25 per cent on 
luxuries, and 30 per cent, on drugs. 

The proposed reduction of duty on the last class will appear very considerable 
when compared with the present scale, othemise still lower rates would be recom- 
nifiided. The proposed new duties are calculated to fall on the average value ; 
infLTiDr qualities pay more in proportion ; but this is an inducement to improve the 
quality of goods, and is not therefore objectionable. 

If the great object of duties be tlje production of revenue, that object has always 
been most effectually secured by the imposition of moderate rates, as may be briefly 
proved by a few examples ; viz. 

The duty on Coffee at \g. per lb. amounted to £400,000. 

Ditto ditto at 6d. per lb. it amounted to £500,000. 

and a further reduction might be made, with every probability of advantage to the 
revenue ; riz. 

To 4d. per lb. aa West- India; 
To 6d. per lb. on East-India ; 
which rates would still amount to 5 per cent, on the market value here. 

The following statement shows the advantages consequent on reductions of duty, 
the annual consumption having increased most rapidly ; viz. on, 

Fonncr IHaMt 
lit. Ibt. Duty. limj. 

Coffee, B. P. from 8,000,000 to 20,000,000 increased 150 per cent 1/ - ^ p' lb. 

E.I. ... 300,000 to 1,000,000 — 200 — ]/6 - /9 — 

Pepper 900,000 to 2,000,000 — 120 — 2/5 - 1/ — 

Rice, Bengal 40,000 bags to 100,000 bags — 150 — 5/ - 1/ p' cwt. 

Rice being brought from Bengal, principally for the purpose of making a small 
freieht of about £5 per ton, the present duty of £1 per ton falls rather benvy, and 
might be reduced to 10/, the same as the duty on saltpetre, which is double the value 
of rice, the consumption of whidi is likely to increase with the lower orders. 

Sugar may be considered, more generally than any one of these articles, a neces- 
sary of life, and would without any doubt increase in the same proportion, by re- 
ducing the duty to the same extent ; the last reduction was too trifling, a small 
reduction of duty injures the revenue, and does not benefit the community. 

Bei^al sugar now pays a dui^ of 120 per cent, on the gross price, which, after de- 
ducting frei^t and caarges in £lngland, is equal to 200 per cent, on the proceeds here. 

It is recommended that the duty on angar be reduced from 24/ to 12/ on West- 
India, being at the latter rate SO per cenL oo the gross price ; and from 32/ to 16/ oti 
Bast-India, being the proportionate reduction on uiis d^ription of sugar. 

the BiaHMl eomimption of mcmr in this country bein^ 170,000 tons, the quantity, 
if nufMued in the mom ratio as uw preceding less essential commodities, would soon 
■——^ to 850,000 tons, the p^gpU"*** of thia increMe being such as to give additional 




238 • EVIDENCE ON £AST.INJ)U AFFAIRS : 

21 April 1831. All the trades connected with shipping, sailors, agents, merchants and underwriters, 

would thereby be better able to bear du-ect taxation, and by additional expenditure 

Sir C. Forbes^ and consumption, all these classes would indirectly and extensively contribute to aug- 
Bart ment many other sources of revenue ; besides which, a reduction in the price of sugar 

would be an essential benefit to every family throughout the Kingdom, and especially 
to those in the middle and lower classes of society. 

(Signed) Inglis, Forbes, ^ Co. Palmers, Mackillop ^ Co. 

Cockerell, Trail, ^ Co. Richards, Mackintosh, ^ Co. 

F inlay, Hodgson, ^ Co, Small, Colquhoun^ ^ Co^ 

Fletcher, Alexander, ^ Co. Gregson, Melville, I* Knight. 

Fairlie, Bonham, ^ Co. Rawson, Holdsworth, ^ Co. 

London, 31st March 1831. 



SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OP COMMONS. «S9 



(A.) 

Prices Current of Eastrlndim Prodaoe, 1st January 18S1. 



CK)OD& 



PRICES. 



froni 



Aloes 

Assafcctida 

Benjamin, 1st 

2d 

3d 

Barilla 

Borax, refined 

unrefined^ or Tincal 

Camphor 

Cardemomty Ceylon 

Malabar 

Cassia Buds 

Lignea 

Cinnamon 

CloTes, Bourbon 

Amboyna 

Coculus Indicus 

Cochineal 

Coffee, Mocha 

Java, brown 

Chenbon •• 

Sumatra 

Cotton, Bengal • 

Madras 

Surat 

Cubebs 

Dragons' Blood 

Ebony 

Galls 

Gamboge 

Ginger, Bengal 

Gums, Arnmoniac 



£3 10 

15/ 



to 



£10 

40/ 



none. 



*15 
£3 

5l 

55/ 
56/ 
£4 10 

9 

3/ 

60/ 
8/ 

/lO 

1/6 

1/1 
65/ 

31/ 
30/ 

/4l 
/4l 

70/ 
£9 

4/ 
50/ 

£5 

so/ 

30/ 



nO. 



£20 
£6 

6/ 
56/ 
58/ 
£4 15 

1/4 
4/6 

80/ 

70/ 

9/6 

i/a 

fi/S 

so/ 

1/s 

801 

38/ 

35/ 
/5 

/5f 

80/ 

£15 

5/ 

65/ 
£16 

«4/ 
100/ 



Fte 



cwt 



1} 



1} 



lb. 



lb. 
cwt. 

1} 

cwt. 



DUTIEa 



>/3 P* lb. 

1X0 _ 

a/ - 

£3 p' ton 
/6 p' lb. 

/3 - 
/I - 

a/ - 

>/ - 
/6 - 

/6 - 

»/ - 
a/ - 

9/6 — 

/4 - 

/9 - 

1/ - 

>/ - 
/4p'cwt. 

a/p'Ib. 
1/8 - 
ifi/p'ton 
5/p'cwt. 
1/8 p' lb. 
1 1/6 p' cwt. 
1/3 p* lb. 



DUTT, 
Rate per Cent 



from 



70 
233 



f 56 

li86 

33 
100 

48 

9 

ri5o 
1 44 



80 

5 
171 

92 

• 

s8 
105 

f«96 
l3«o 

f5/6 
l5/6 

s8o 
6s 

16 

7 

68 

47 
140 



to 



280 

6S2 

74 

373 
40 

10s 

50 
10 

s66 
66 

140 

93 
6 

S40 

133 
ii400 

30 

is8 

361 
373 

5/7 
5/8 

320 

465 

»9 
10 

187 

57 
466 



21 
5t> 







240 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA 



21 April 1831. 

SirC.Forbeh 
Ban. 



(A.)— Prices Current of East-India Produce— ooftfumeii 



GOODS. 



Gumsy Animi 

Arabic 

Gum Lac: Lac Dye, fine D.T. 

other marks, good 

middling 

ordinary 

ShelUIac, dark 

orange 

Hemp • . • . . 

Hides, Buffalo 

Ox and Cow, dry. .' 

Indigo 

Mace 

Mother-o'-pearl Shells, China. ..... 

Bombay. • . • 
Musk 

Myrrh 

Nutmegs, ist 

2d 

Nux Vomica 

Oils, of Aniseed 

Cassia 

Cinnamon 

Cloves 

Mace 

Nutmegs 

Olibanum 

Pepper, black 

white 

Rhubarb, common 

fine Dutch, trimmed 

Rice, Patna 

Bengal, white 

yellow 

Java 



PRICES. 



firom 



£6 

50/ 

1/6 

>/ 
/6 

u 

£6 

/3 
/3 

4/ 

85/ 

50/ 
30/ 

£5 

3/6 
3/10 

7/ 

/4 

/3i 
10/ 

/6 

/I 

>/ 
10/ 

/3 
/4* 
/6 
3/6 

15/ 

14/ 
10/ 



to 



£13 

55/ 

3/ 

8/ 
1/6 

1/ 
£5 

£y 
£30 

Is 

/4 
4/ 
5/6 

90/ 

60/ 

50/ 
£13 

4/ 
3/3 
8/ 
/5 
/4 

18/ 

/8 

/a 
1/8 

46/ 

/4i 
/8 

3/ 
4/ 

90/ 
18/ 
13/j 
10/ 



Per 



cwt. 



lb. 



cwt. 



prt.! 

ton. 
lb. 



cwt. 

oz. 
cwt. 
lb. I 

cwt. 
oz. 



cwt* 
lb. -I 

1} 

ewUi 



DUTIES. 



/6 p' lb. 
6/ p* cwt. 



free. 
1/2 wet p' cwt. 
2/4 dry — 

/3 p' lb. 
3/6 - 



5/ P* oz. 
1/8 p' lb. 

2/6 — 

2/ - 

4/ - 
1/ p' oz. 

1/ - 

2/ - 

2/6 — 
2/6 — 

£2 p' cwt. 
1/ p* lb. 

2/6 — 



i/p*cwt. 

15/ - 



DUTY, 
Rate per Cent. 



from 



23 
10 



4 
6 

63 



10 

77 

62 

a33 
60 

300 

8 

300 

1,200 

150 

87 
r266 

1 150 
r 83 
1 62 



to 



46 

12 



20 



5 

8 

6 

87 

5 

5 

a5 
187 

88 

266 

75 

343 
10 

400 

3»ooo 

250 

400 

400 

^6 

500 

100 

10 

150 



ftw^^^S^VVvv^vVV. 




m^- . *!r*l 






V '►,.> 



sELEOTi^&fMmnrpm (^-tf«t rouse of odHoi ons. mi 

(A.)— PrtceB€(irr«ntorEaM-Indu Produce— eoflttMtMl. ai Apifl 



Ruin, Bengal 

Safflower , 

Sago, common i,. 

pearl 

Sal Ammoniac , 

Saltpetre , 

Sapan Wood , , 

Sanders ditto red 

Seedj, Aniseed Star 

SiUc, Bengal , 

China 

Permian 

Sugar, Bengal, white 

middling white . . , , 
low ditto and brown. 

China and Siam, white 

yellow . . . . 

MauritiuB, fine. 

yellow 

Teeth, Elephanu 

Tefra Japonica . , , 

Tumeric, Bengal 

Java 

China 

TortAiiahell 

Vermilion 



■«/ 

"7/ 
•«/ 
"I 
ttj 
i6l 
51/ 
46/ 
♦»/ 
£19 
«5/ 
"I 
"I 
iB/ 
30/ 
s/6 



1/9 
£9 
"/ 
3<V 
70/ 
37/ 
10/ 
15/ 
60 
14/6 
■7/6 

19/6 

34/ 
«7/ 
93/ 
•5/ 
95/ 
54/ 
50/ 
44/ 
£93 
3Sl 
■4/ 
15/ 
98/ 
4«/ 
3/ 



:1 



£ip-gd. 
9/6 p' cirt. 
1/ - 
10/ - 

/3 P" Ik- 
is/ p' ton 
19/ - 
30/ p' cwt 

/I p' lb. 



£1 1 91. p' cwt. 



Duty paid. 
£1 4<. p' cwt 

90/ p' cwL 

3/ - 

«/4 - 



/6p'lb. 

1/ - 



Bari 



«{ 



5 
37 
I 

H 
« 




21 



EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS : 



il April 1831. 



SirC.Rtrtu, 
Bart. 



(B.) 



Aloes 

AEsafcetida 

Barilla 

Benjamin 

Borax, unrefined, or Tincol. 

Cardemoms 

Caisia Buda 

Lignea 

Ctovea 

Cochineal, East-India .... 

Cubebs 

Dragons' Blood 

OambogQ 

Ginger 

Gun, Ammoniac 

Animi 

Arabic 

Lao Dye 

SheU-lac 

Seed, Aoueed 

Mace 

Mother-o'-pearl Shells . . . 

Myrrh 

Nutmegs 

Oil, Cocoa Nut 

Cassia 

Cloves 

Mace 

Nutm^ 

Olibanum 

Pepper, Black 

White 

Rhubarb 



£5 per cwt. 

50i. — 
£5 per too. 

8o<. per cwL 

45*- — 

St. 6d. per lb. 

80J. per cwt. 

80*. — 

IS. per lb. 

60s. per cwt. 
£10 — 



laoj. — 
5<w. — 
It. 6d. per lb. 
loof. per cwt. 
80*. — 
3j. 6d. per lb. 
50«. per cwu 
*7 - 



41^ per oz. 

Jd. - 
lid. - 

30*. per cwt. 
3d. per lb. 
6i — 



Pnpoaei Duty. 



35*. per cwL 

15*. — 

5f. per ton. 

35*. per cwt 

«. — 

Qd. per lb. 

6d. — 

2d. — 

3d. - 

Id. — 

20*. per cwt. 
£3 - 
£4 - 

at.6d. -~ 

30*. — 

6». — 

2i.6d.~ 

it^perlb. 
6*. per cwt. 
30*. — 
I*, per lb. 
3*. per cwt. 
♦0*. — 
&/.perlb. 




SELECT COMMITTEE o; nu HOUSE OF COMMONS. <tii 



(C.) 

Amount of Duty per Annum, taking the A?erage of Four Years. 



21 April 



Sir C. Fo 
Sari 



On 

Aniseed, Star ... 

Aloei 

Aasafotida . . . . 

Barilla 

Borax, unrefined 

Cardemoma 

C&Mia Buda 

Lignea 

Clovea 

Cochineal 

Cubetx 

Dragoni' Blood 

Gamboge 

Oinger 

Gum a, Ammoniac 

Animi . . . 

Arabic . . . . 

Lac Dye . 

Shell'lac 
Mace 

Nutmegs 

OiU, of Cassia . . 

Cinnamon 

Cloves .. 

Mace .. 

Nuim^s 

Olibanum 

Rhubatb 



33,500 It 

+,700 lb 

100 t( 

180,000 lb 

3^0 It 

4.360 11 

44,900 lb 

600 It 

6,700 a 

16,650 It 

9,360 II 

5.750 « 

380 c 

9.350 It 

86,550 It 

4,350 c 

383,000 11 

9,050 c 

lao pi 

11,500 11 

530 ci 

32,000 o\ 



4.500 hi**. 



Rate of Dutf. Total Duty. 



jEgpercwt. 

U. Zd. per lb. 

lod. — 
£2 per ton. 

3d. per lb. 



W. — 
31. — 
3d. — 

31. — 

w.Srf.— 
l*.8rf._ 
4<. 6d. per cwL 
If. ad. per lb. 
5d. - 
61. per cwt. 
5*. — 

90*. — 

3«. 6d, per lb. 
it.Sd. — 
3M.6d. — 
It. per oz. 



it. ed. — 

9f.&/.— 



at. 6d. per lb. 



u. per lb. 



2IC 




EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



JOHN STEWART, Esq., called in j and examined. 



21 April 1831. 2460. Have you liad opportunities of becoming acquainted with the state 

of the Island of Ceylon? — Yes, I have. 

uwarij tq, g^gi Are you aware of the import and export-duties now existing on the 
island of Ceylon, and will you be so good as to state to the Committee the 
general outline of those duties, as they tend to affect the trade between the 
Peninsula and other parts of India, and Ceylon, and also this country ? — The 
imports into Ceylon from the presidencies of India are confined almost 
entirely to grain, principally rice, upon which an import-duty of a rix-doUar a 
bag is charged, being from fifty to seventy-iive per cent, upon the prime cost 
of the article at Calcutta. The produce and manufactures of this country are 
also subject to a heavy duty on import into that island, and the produce of 
Ceylon on being exported to this country, or to India, is also subject to very 
considerable duties; the system being altogether diflerent from that which 
prevails in the Company's territories, where the produce and manufactures of 
the United Kingdom are permitted to be imported duty free (with the excep- 
tion of cotton piece-goods, which pay a duty of two and a half per cent., and 
from whence the produce of British India is permitted to be exported to the 
mother country without the exaction of any duty whatever. 

2402. Is it not your opinion, that if a more free commercial intercourse 
were allowed between Ceylon and the various parts of India it would tend 
greatly to the advantage of both countries ? — Certainly. 

S4<63. ~VVhat are the chief exports from Ceylon to this country? — Cinna- 
mon is the principle article of export. Cocoa-nut oil and arrack are also 
exported } and there is now a considerable export of coffee from Ceylon to 
this country, which I understand is increasing. 

S^Oli. Is it not usual for ships coming from India to touch at Ceylon to 
take on board some of those articles? — It is. 

3465. Is not the trade consequently very much impeded by the high duty? 
—Certainly, very much. 

2't6C. Do you know the per-centageof the duty upon any of those articles? 
— I cannot charge my memory to sute that precisely ; there is a regular tariff 
published, which shows the duties. 

if4G7. Is not Ceylon a very productive island, capable of producing various 
articles to a great extent ? — xes, particularly so ; the soil, produce, climate, 
harbours and locality of this colony altogether, fit it peculiarly for being a 
place of great importance in a commercial point of view. 

2468. Would not those articles find their way to other parts of India, and 
also to this country, inagreaterdegree, if a more liberal system were pursued? 
— I have no doubt of it There is nothing permitted to be exported from 
Ceylon, I believe, without payment of duty. 

2409. Do 





SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 245 

34>69< Do you consider that it would be advantageous for the island of 31 April i 

Ceylon to be under the same government as the territories of the East.India 

Company ? — Yes, I conceive it would be most advantageous. '^" **"«^ 

Qi^O. On what grounds? — The government of Ceylon is essentially 
different from the government of the East-India Company, and most inferior 
to it in every respect. The government of Ceylon is a pure despotism, 
exercised in the very worst possible way ; the government of the East-India 
Company, on the other hand, is a mild, beneficent, good government, well 
calculated to promote the general welfare and prosperity of our fellow sub- 
jects in India. On Ceylon, the system of forced labour, which prevailed 
there when we acquired the island from the Dutch, is still continued, and 
exacted from the native population with a degree of severity which would 
scarcely be believed by any one who had not witnessed it, as I have done. 

2471. Have you been there recently ? — I was there last in the year 1823. 

24.72. Have there been any important changes since that time ? — None 
that I am aware of. 

2173. You spoke of the exportation of grain and rice from Bengal to 
Ceylon, is that to any considerable extent ? — It is to a very considerable 
extent. There is very little rice produced on Ceylon, and that of an inferior 
quality, and the population, to a considerable extent, are dependent upon the 
foreign supply, which principally comes from Bengal, and from the coast of 
Malabar. 

2474. Is rice the food of the people ? — It is chiefly the food of the people ; 
but there are other grains raised upon Ceylon. Rice is regularly supplied to 
the military and other government establishments. 

2475. Is there not a considerable supply obtained from the Southern Mah- 
ratta provinces, from the Tanjore country, Raranad, and the countries along 
the coast ? — As far as my own knowledge goes, the importations from that 
side of India were confined principally to the rice from Mangalore. 

2476. Are you aware that there is practically a great deal of forced labour 
in India ? — I believe there is forced labour in the Company's territories in 
India to a certain extent, that is that they are forced to labour upon being 
paid for it i but in Ceylon the natives are forced to labour in many instances 
without being paid for it. 

2477- Are not the producers of salt, for instance, at the mouth of the 
Ganges, under a system of compulsory labour? — I have understood that such 
is the case, and I believe it to be so, although I have not had an opportunity 
of personal observation upon the subject. 

2478. When you state that there is forced labour in India, do you refer to 
times of emergency, such as military operations, and to periods when military 
corps must be carried from one point to another, or do you refer to ordinary 
times i and if to the latter, will you state whether it was ao occurrence arising 
from tlie CTftDsgressioir of positive orders by individuals, which was punish- 
able. 



246 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 April 1831. able, or whether it was a system pursued under the instructions and regula- 
^ tions of government ? — I alluded entirely to forced labour under the instruc- 

J. Stewart^ Esq. ^j^^^ q|- government, not applicable to times of emergency, or as arising out 

of transgressions of the orders of government ; as in the instance of the 
system of forced labour which prevails at the mouth of the Ganges, with 
regard to the manufacture of salt. 

2479. Is it to be found in any other place, excepting in the instance that 
you mention at the mouth of the Ganges ?-*I am not aware at this moment 
of any other particular instance, and of that I do not speak from personal 
observation. 

S480. Are you aware that that forced labour is only enforced by compelling 
them to execute contracts already engaged ? — I am not aware of that. 

2481. Do you happen to know at what rate a common day-labourer is paid 
in Ceylon, and in the Bengal provinces? — Wages are very low indeed in 
Bengal, labour there being very cheap ; in Ceylon it is considerably higher. 

2485. Do you not conceive that the peasantry of Ceylon are better clothed, 
better fed, and better paid than the peasantry in Bengal ? — I believe they are 
generally better paid when not forced to labour by government ; but the 
population of Ceylon is not by any means so dense as that of Bengal, and 
labourers are consequently more difficult to be had. 

2483. Are the necessaries of life dearer in Bengal than they are in Ceylon ? 
— No ; they are much dearer in Ceylon than in Bengal. 

2484. Is the climate of Ceylon of a description which would admit of 
Europeans labouring in it ? — I think it is better adapted for European labour 
than the climate on the continent of India as far north as the latitude of 18^ 
or 20^ 

2485. Do you know that there was a code of laws for Ceylon ? — I am 
aware that Ceylon is governed by a particular code of colonial laws. 

2486. Are you aware whether trial by jury has been introduced into the 
island of Ceylon ? — It has. 

2487. What was the result ? — It was most beneficial. 

2488. Do the natives sit upon the jury ? — ^They do. 

2489. Is colonization by Europeans freely permitted in that island ? — 
It has been permitted upwards of twenty years, a government proclamation 
having been issued to that effect in, I think, 1810, holding out encourage- 
ment for the settlement of Europeans there ; but it is only within the last 
few years that it has been availed of, and only in two or three instances, I 
believe. 

2490. Are any impediments put by the government of the island ? — No 
impediments appear by the proclamation ; but there is always this impediment 
in the way of it, namely, that by the present constitution of the Ceylon 
government, it rests with the governor, individually, to promulgate and enact 

any 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OP COMMONS. 847 

any law that he thinks proper for the government of the colony, or for the ^1 April 1 

regulation of any individual interest in it, and so soon as that is proclaimed ^J~I 

it becomes the law of the colony, and the courts of justice there are bound Stewartj 
to recognize and obey it as such. 

2491* So that he may send any man out of the colony without giving any 
reason for it ? — Certainly ; and may not only send him out of the colony, but 
may confiscate his property, or take back the grant of land which had been 
made to him, or make a new law to regulate the disposal of its produce, if 
he sees fit. 

2492. Can you state any instance of that having been done ? — There is 
one instance which took place in the year 1823 or 1824, not with regard to 
property, but with regard to the imprisonment of an individual of the name 
of Rosier, an Englishman, and which was brought before the House of Com- 
mons some years ago. The man was stated to have deserted from the army 
in Bengal, and he was on board a ship bound to this country which touched 
at Colombo. An intimation had been sent to the Ceylon government that 
he was a deserter, and he was in consequence taken out of the ship, and 
confined in custody of the town-major of Colombo. He applied to His 
Majesty's Supreme Court there, stating, in the usual form, tliat he was ille- 
gally imprisoned, and a writ of habeas corpus issued, as a matter of course, 
directing him to be brought before the court; but before that order could be 
complied with. General Campbell, who was then acting governor of Ceylon, 
enacted a regulation by which he directed, that it should then and there- 
afler be a sufiScient return to any writ of habeas corpus, to state that the 
party ordered to be brought up was confined by an order under the signature 
of the governor, or of the secretary to the government That return was con- 
sequently made to the writ, and the Chief Justice, Sir Hardinge Gifi^ord, stated, 
after seeing the regulation, that he was bound to consider it the law of the 
colony, and to be guided by it accordingly. The man was consequently not 
brought before the court, and I believe he died in custody at Colombo. 

24*93. Are you aware that a similar law exists, with reference to habeas 
corpus, all over India, that any British subject may be, and has been taken 
up and confined by the governments in India without any reason being 
assigned, and on a habeas corpus being granted, the return to that is, that 
he is so imprisoned by an order of the governor in council ?— *I believe that 
that law would not be operative within the jurisdiction of any of the King's 
courts of judicature at the presidencies ; but that it would be so in the 
provinces. 

2494. Are you not aware that it actually did happen in Bombay ? — I am 
aware that a case of that kind did happen a good many years ago in Bombay; 
that such a return was made : but it is not within my own knowledge, as I 
was not at Bombay at the time. 

249^. Do the high duties of which you have spoken give occasion to a 
great deal of smuggling on the idand of Ceylon ?— -No, I do not think that 

there 



248 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

21 April 1831. there is much smuggling : the articles of import and export to Ceylon are 

generally bulky, and it would be difficult to smuggle them. 

^' QiQG. Have you any idea what is the annual value of exports and imports 
from Ceylon to India? — I cannot state precisely what ; but there was, I 
think, a return made of them to the House of Commons two years ago. 
34'97- Have many Europeans settled in Ceylon ? — No, very few indeed. 
24-98. Have those been men of capital ? — ^No, I am not aware that any men 
of capital have settled in Ceylon. 

2499. Can you stnte what number of Europeans there are there? — I sup- 
pose the number of Europeans resident on the island is rather under than over 
five hundred, exclusive of military. 

2500. Have they been successful ? — Generally speaking, not j the com- 
mercial interests of the island are exceedingly depressed. 

Q501, Have any of them succeeded as cultivators of the soil? — I amnot 
aware that any of them have tried that, except in the few instances I have 
mentioned of people having settled there lately, 

S502. Have you ever heard of any settlers in Ceylon, or persons engaged 
in commerce, going to the interior, or do they merely limit themselves to the 
coast? — Since we got possession of theCandian territory someofthem have 
gone into the interior, and I believe a gentleman that has been settled at 
Ceylon for many years as a merchant, has now got a coffee plantation in the 
interior ; how it is succeeding I do not know. 

52503. Have many gentlemen that you have known engaged in the trade 
of elephants, or does that remain solely with the government ? — I believe 
that the trade in elephants has entirely dropped, as not worth pursuing by any 
one : indeed, they may be shot at pleasure, and I therefore conclude they 
are considered of little or no value. 

2504. Is not the pearl fishery a branch of commerce in which a number of 
persons engage? — It is; but it is a strict monopoly in the hands of the 
government. 

2505. Is not the cinnamon also in the hands of the government ? — It is 
entirely in the hands of the government ; a very rigid monopoly. 

2506. Are there any other monopolies ? — I am not aware of any monopoly 
except the cinnamon, and the chank and pearl fishery. 

2507. Are not those monopolies very prejudicial to the interests of the 
island ? — Very prejudicial indeed. 

2508. You have stated that the government of India, compared with the 
government of Ceylon, is mild and beneficent, and in every way preferable ) 
would it not be much more beneficial to the population were the Company to 
surrender their character of merchants in India* confining themselves to that 
of sovereigns? — Yes, I am of opinion that it would be much more beneficial 
to the couotiy generally, and to the native popuUtioD id particular. 

S509* Would 





SELECT COMMITTEE op thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 849 

iSOQ. Would Dot commerce be carried on with much more confidence and 31 April I 

vigour, particularly on the part of the natives, if such were the case ? — No 

doubt it would. J. Stewart 

9610, Does the government of Ceylon trade on its own account? — Yes, 
to a very great extent. 

2511. Is not that practice of government trading on its own account very 
injurious to the private traders ? — Very injurious indeed ; it almost annihilates 
them. 

2515. How does it operate?— It is quite impossible for any private 
merchant to compete successfully in the market with those who exercise 
sovereign power in the territory where that trading goes on. 

2513. Does not that arise from the superiority of their capital and credit? 
— It arises partly from that ; and in Ceylon it is influenced by the power 
exercised by the government of forced labour. The natives there are obliged 
to gather certain articles of produce, and deliver it to government without 
being paid for their labour. 

S514. Is not the case totally different in Bengal, and in the Company's 
provinces? — Not entirely different in the Company's territories. The effect 
of the government trading no doubt is in some respects similar, and although 
there is not forced delivery, yet my belief is, that the natives of India, those 
I mean who raise the produce, are influenced in giving the Company a 
preference in the purchase of it, by a iear of displeasing the ruling autho- 
rities. 

9515. Can you state any instances in proof of that opinion? — I may state 
in reply to that question, that when I visited the provinces to the northward 
of Bombay, in the year 1811 or 181S, one object of my journey was the 
purchase of cotton, and my communication witli the native merchants who 
had cotton to sell, as to the prices and conditions on which I could obtain it, 
left no doubt on my mind that their abstaining from selling, as they did, till 
they knew what might be the extent of the Company's demand, arose partly 
from a fear of offending the ruling authorities, if they parted with the article 
which might afterwards be required by the government. 

2516. Was it not more natural that it should arise from the h<H>e of obtaining 
a greater price r^— It is very probable that that consideration influenced 
them partly ; but I am equally certain that they were also influenced in a 
considerable degree by tlie motive I have mentioned. 

9S17. Are you aware that, at the period of which you apeak, the govern- 
ment were in the habit of receiving the great staple of cotton in those 
provinces of which you have spoken, as revenue in kind ? — ^Ves, I am aware 
that at the time I mentioned they received part of the revenues in cotton, 
and that that system has since been done away with. 

£518. Are you aware that the cotton is purchased by a commercial agent, 
who n toUUy datinct in bis duties and caiwoity, irom either the person who 
2 K under 



250 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 April 1831. under the name of collector collects the revenues, or from the judge, by whom 

^ all complaints are decided ; and that the commercial agent has no duties 

^^^'^^ ^^' except those of going with the means they afforded him as a competitor into 

the market to make purchases with money supplied to him from the govern- 
ment ? — Yes, I believe that that has been the case of late years on the Bom« 
bay side of India, certainly ; and that the commercial agent has not had any 
other duties to perform. 

2519. Is not the commercial agent a civil servant of the Company?— 
He is. 

2520. Do you not, however, think that the knowledge which the natives 
have that the commercial agent is a servant of the ruling power, would give 
him considerable advantages in the purchase of the article in the market ? — 
I have not the least doubt of it. 

2521. Advantages which no private trader could possibly possess? — 
Certainly. 

2522. What are those advantages ? — The natives of India who grow cotton 
know that the commercial agent is the servant of the East-India Company, 
and that in purchasing the cotton from them he is carrying into effect 
the orders of the government, and they consider very naturally that 
dealing with him is just the same as if they were dealing directly with the 
government. 

2523. What effect can that have upon the purchase of the article ? — Per- 
haps I had better, in answer to that question, state, that if a private merchant 
goes into the market early in the season to purchase cotton, the growers will 
not sell or make a bargain with him, till they know, in the first instance, the 
extent to which the Company wish to purchase ; they are, no doubt, 
influenced in doing so, in a considerable degree, by the hope of getting a 
better price from the Company ; but I have no doubt also, in a very great 
degree, by the fear of offending the Government, if they had sold their cotton 
before they knew whether the Company would require it or not. 

2524. How could they possibly incur the displeasure of government for 
not selling to the agent of government that which they did not possess ?-«-It 
is known that they do possess that cotton every year, and they believe that if 
they do not keep it on hand till they knew whether the Company required it 
or not, they would incur the displeasure of the ruling authorities. 

2525. Is not this merely your own opinion, and your belief, and not a 
statement of fact ? — It is my opinion and my belief, derived from personal 
observation, and from personal communication with many of those who are 
the growers of the article. 

2526. At what period ? — As I mentioned, in the year 1811 or 1812, 

2527* Have you any information upon this subject that applies to the 
period of the present charter ? — ^Yes } I have had ample experience of the 

present 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 251 

present system during my residence at Bombay, so late as the year 1824, and 21 Apr 

I know that the same feeling continues to operate now. — 

J. Stewi 
Q5Q8. Supposing no influence to exist on the part of the Company as the 

governing power, and that there were no fears of the resentment of that 
power in any shape, is not the interference of a body with unlimited capital 
among private independent merchants, in the ordinary speculations of com- 
merce, fatal to the freedom and independence of commerce, and must not 
such a competitor in the ordinary transactions of commerce be destructive 
of the individuals who are to act in competition with it ? — There can be no 
doubt of it. 

2529- Supposing that in any of the presidencies of India this government 
so trading is occasionally called upon to give assistance to merchants at periods 
of distress, have they not the power of making an abundance or a scarcity of 
money, according as that assistance is either granted or withheld, so as to 
oppress their competitors in the ordinary commerce of the country ? — They 
no doubt have the power to do so. 

2530. Have they ever exercised it, to your knowledge, at Bombay ? — They 
certainly never have, to my knowledge. 

2531. Have you ever known within the last five or six years, by any 
statements from the commercial men with whom you are connected, that 
they have ever preferred to the government any complaints of a deficiency 
of the supply of the article of cotton, or any difliculties that obstructed them 
in its purchase, without those being, in the few cases in which they have 
occurred, immediately remedied by the government ?-^I have not heard that 
any application has been made to the government upon that subject within 
the last four or five years. 

2532. Have there been any obstructions to their obtaining as much of the 
article as they required? — No direct obstruction by the government; but I 
conceive the interference of government operates as a very serious obstruction 
to them in the market. 

2533. Are you not aware that the government have adopted measures 
generally for the encouragement of the growth of cotton ? — ^Yes, I have 
reason to know that within the last few years measures have been adopted 
for that purpose, or rather to improve the staple of the article. 

2534. When you speak of capital possessed by the government, with which 
they trade, do you conceive that, strictly speakings to be commercial capital^ 
or only an application of territorial revenue ? — I did not speak of it as capital 
at all ; it is an unlimited command of funds, arising no doubt from the 
territorial revenue. 

2535. Therefore, supposing losses to be sustained, in a commercial sense, 
by the party so carrying on trade, would not such losses have a very difllerent 
effect upon them from (he eflfect they would have upon a private trader, 

SK9 inasmuch 



252 EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 April 1831. inasmuch as they might be attended with total ruin to him, while in the case 

of the Company it would only make a charge against the territorial revenue ? 

.1 Stewart, Esq. _Exactly so. 

2536. Have you found the feeling of respect for the authority of the 
Company's agents, and consequent preference of them, as prevalent of late 
years as when you were first acquainted with India ?---Quite as much so. 

2537. Are you aware whether the inhabitants, particularly in the northern 
district of Guzzerat, are in the habit of sacrificing their interests to meet the 
wishes of the government, or whether they are not in the habit, every year, 
on every point connected with the payment of their land revenue, and their 
commercial dealings, of filing suits against the government in its own courts 
of justice, both as relates to the revenue administration of justice and the 
civil administration of justice?— I have knowledge, certainly, of the fact of 
their frequently instituting proceedings against the government in the pro- 
vincial courts, but with what success I cannot say. It is, however, unques- 
tionable, that notwithstanding the establishment of those courts for the pur- . 
pose of administering justice, the natives of India do not go into those 
courts, against the Company, with any degree of confidence of attaining 
justice, because they know that the judges of those courts are the servants of 
the Company, that they are appointed by the government, that they are 
removable at the pleasure of government, that they are dependent upon the 
local government for further advancement in the service, and that an appeal 
from those courts lies to the court of adawlut, the judges of which were, until 
very lately, the governor and the members of the council, the very men, in 
fact, who appointed the judges of the provincial court, from whose decision 
the appeal is made. My belief is, and that belief is founded upon frequent 
communication with the natives of India, that they have no confidence, or 
very little confidence in the present system of the administration of justice 
in the provinces of India. 

2538. Is your answer grounded upon communications and intercourse 
which you have had with the native community of Bombay, or from a resi- 
dence in those provinces ; and does it refer to the period subsequent to the 
last charter, or to a former period, when you visited the provinces in 1812 ? 
— They refer to the period since 1811, when I first became a resident at 
Bombay ; and during the long period I resided there as a merchant and agent, 
I had almost constant communication personally with the native merchants, 
and by correspondence, and also personally with natives in other parts of 
India, who occasionally visited the presidency of Bombay ; and having been, 
during that time, an alderman of the King's Court of Bombay, the subject 
of the administration of justice was one of frequent discussion between 
myself and the different respectable merchants and natives on that side of 
India, and it was the general complaint of the whole, without a single excep- 
tion that lam aware of, that the administration of justice in the provinces 
was exceedingly defective, inefficient and corrupt. When I say corrupt, I 

apply 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 95S 

apply the term as they applied it, to the system, not to the judges who ^^ ^ 
administered justice in those courts, whom I believe to be a very honourable 
set of men, but they said that the system was one in which they could have ' 
little or no confidence. 

2539* Can you state from your own knowledge, any specific instances that 
have occurred, as a proof of the bad administration of justice under the 
system now established in the provinces of Bombay? — Yes» I have an 
instance in my mind at this moment, and which I am enabled to support by 
a verv high judicial authority in this country. I do not at this moment 
recollect the names of the parties to the suit, but it was an action that was 
tried in the court of adawlut at Surat, and an appeal was made from the 
decision of that court to the sudder adawlut, or governor in council at 
Bombay, which confirmed the decision of the court at Surat, and the case 
came home on appeal to the King in council in this country. That appeal 
was heard, I think, about three years ago, and Sir John Leach, who presided 
at the council, reversed the decree of the Indian provincial court ; and in 
giving judgment he observed, that he had before had occasion to deplore 
the constitution of those courts, and the disgraceful mode in which justice 
was administered in them, and that he had on that occasion represented the 
matter to the President of the Board of Control, with a view to the correction 
of the evil, and recommending that King's judges should be appointed to 
these courts ; but the President had stated that it could not be done, as there 
was a great deal of jealousy between the King's and the Company's ser\'ants 
in India. The learned judge proceeded to state, that the case then before 
him, decided in a manner contrary to every principle of law and justice, 
afforded so strong an additional reason for the change he had recommended, 
that he would furnish the Board of Control with a copy of the evidence^ 
with the view of inducing the President to reconsider his determination. I 
beg to add, that I perfectly concur in the whole that fell from Sir John Leach 
upon that occasion, with the exception of appointing King's judges to 
administer the law in the provincial courts, which I should not consider 
expedient 

2540. You are probably aware, that within the last few years, the Court of 
Appeal in this country have reversed several of the judgments passed by His 
Niajesty's courts of law in India ; should you conclude, from those judg- 
ments being reversed, that those courts were consequently to be condemned 
as being inefficient ? — I am aware that several ^of the judgments of the King's 
courts in India have, upon appeal to this country, been reversed ; but I am 
not aware of any instance in which His Majesty's Privy Council, in reversing 
the judgments of any of the King's courts in lndia» have pronounced in 
unqualified terms, or in any terms whatever^ that the proceedings of those 
courts in the cases alluded to were contrary to every principle of law and 
justice ; and Sir John Leach made use of these words expresMy, in reversing 
the judgment of the provincial court in the case I have alluded to» and did 

not 



254 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS. 

i\ April 1831. not apply tliem to that case alone, but to the proceedings of those courts 

generally. 

./. Steirari, Eng. 354,1, In what year did that case occur?— Three or four years ago. 

S543. Have the natives of India, as far as you know, entire confidence in 
the King's courts at Bombay and the other presidencies ?— They have. 

S543. And that, generally speaking, they would be glad to see their 
jurisdiction extended? — I believe they would be glad that their jurisdiction 
was extended. 

3544. Are you not aware that the delays in the administration of justice 
in the provincial courts, and the corruption of the native officers of the 
courts, are things of general notoriety in India? — They are so. 

25-i5. Within your knowledge, are not the natives of India at the present 
moment a very servile race ; that is, obedient to the will of any officer acting 
under authority ? — They are very obedient. 

2546. Is that derived from your knowledge of the persons at Bombay, or 
is it from your personal knowledge of the provinces during the last fifteen 
years ? — From my own knowledge, derived from residence m India generally, 
and travelling occasionally in the provinces. 

3547. Have you ever been in the Deccan ? — I have been there about five 
or six weeks. 

2548. Have you ever had any intercourse with the natives, except upon 
commercial points ? — Upon commercial points, and upon the state of the 
administration of justice, which was frequently the subject of communica- 
tion between the natives and myself. 

2549. Do you speak the native languages ?— The current dialect used at 
Bombay. 

2550. Are not the natives very much in the habit of opening their minds 
to gentlemen not in the Company's service, and much more so than to 
gentlemen connected with it ? — I have always found them very communica- 
tive, and willing to open their minds on any subject. 




ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS. 



REVENUE : 

No. 1.— AN ACCOUNT of the Arrean of Land RcTenue lefl ouUtanding at the cloM of the 
Official Year, at eaci) of the Presiilcnciei in India . . . . Page 257 

No. 2. — An Account, in detail, of the Revenues and Chargea of the Ceded and Conquered pro- 
vince! under the Presidenciei Bengal, Madrai and Bombay . . . . 258 

No. 3. — An Account of the Per-Centage at wnich the aeveral Heada of Revenue were collected 
in India, ill the Year 1828-29 262 

No. 4. — Ettimaic of the Territorial Rerenuei and Charges of India, under their respective 
Head*, whether payable in India or in England, for the year 1S29>30; with a State- 
ment of the grounds upon which the Ultimate under each Head is formed ; and 
■howing how the Surplus of such Revenues, if any, has been applied, or the Defi- 
ciency provided for . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 264 

No. 5. — Amount of the Territorial Debt owing by the East-India Company at their several Pre- 
lideocies io the East-Indies, and of the Interest thereupon, according to the latest 
Advices 266 

No. G. — Prnspective Estimate of the State of the Finances of India, including the Home Charges, 
at the close of the Company's present Term, supposing the Remittances to be ef- 
fected at 1/11 the sicca rupee, instead of the Rates of Exchange fixed by the Board 
of Commissioner* for the Affair* of India .. .. 267 

No. 7. — Statement of the Particulars of an Item in the Account of the Commercial Branch of the 
Company's Affairs, for the year 1829-30, intitled '■ Charges General," amounting 
to £418,509. 7». 7rf. 275 

No. 8. — Statement of the actual Expenditure of the East-India Company in their Trade, from 
Wastage and Allowance, during the present Charter (upon Tea) . . 277 

No. 9.— An Account of the several kinds of Goods, as Assets in hand, unsold op 1st May 1830 ; 
stating the Quantity and Value of Tea . . 278 

No. 10.— A Return of the Company's Establishment at the Cape of Good Hope, with the 
Salaries of the different Officers thereof; the Eipense incurred for maintaining 
Warehouses ; the Rate of Agency charged on Purcnases and Sales, with the Grose 
Amount of theaaroe; for the year 1829-30 279 

No. 1 1. — An Account, showing all other Charges, as well in China as in England, inctirrcd by 
the Easl-India Company in their Trade with China, including Freight, and stating 
the actual Amount, in the year 1829-30 280 

No. 18. — An Account of the Expense of the East-India Company's Establiahment at Canton ; 
the Names of the Servants, and the Amount of f^alariea and Emoluments of each, 
and of the whole Cost for the Maintenance of the same, in the Year 1829-30 282 
TRADE LICENSES: 

No. IS, — Return of the Number of Licenses which have been granted by tbe Court of Direc- 
tors, and by the Board of Commiationen for the Aoairs of India, to Individuals to 
reside in India ; and also, of the Number refuaed, in each Year since 1814 . . 284 
GENERAL TRADE: 

No. 14. — Sutement of the Commerce of British -India with Great Britain, North America, South 
America, and Foreign Europe for 1827-28 and 1828-29; distinguishing the Trade of 
the Eaat-India Company from that of Individuals, and Merchandise from Treaauiv; — 
Bengal Imports . . . . 285 

No. 15.— Ditto . . . . ditto . . ditto . . . . Bangal, ExporU . . 286 

No. le^DiUo . . ditto . . ditto . . Hadnu, Importa . . 287 

No. 17^-Diuo . . . . dkto . . ditto . . . . Madras, Exports . . 266 

No. 18. — Ditto . . . . ditto ditto . . Bombay, ImporU . . 269 

No.19.— Dkto .. .. ditto .. .. ditto .. .. Bombay, Exports.. 290 




256 I^T OF PAPERS. 

Mo. 20. — Abstract Statement of the Value of IraportB into Bengal, Madras and Bombay, from 
Great Britain, Foreign Europe, and North and South America ; and of Exports from 
Bengal, Madras and Bombay to Great Britain, Foreign Europe, and North and South 
America, in the Year, for 1827-28, and 1828-29 ; distinguishing the Imports and 
Exports by the East-India Company from those by Individuals, and Merchandize 
from Treasure Page 298 

No. 21. — An Account of the Quantity and Value of Cargoes exported by American Ships from 
the different Porta of BritiA India, for 1827-^ and 1828-29 :— Beneal . . 294 

No. 22. — Ditto ditto Madns .. 296 

No. 23.— Ditto ditto Bombay . . ib.' 

No. 24. — An Account of the Quantity of American Tonnage which haa cleared out from the 
diSbrent Ports of British India, for 1827-28 and 1 828-29 298 

No. 25. — An Account of the Quantity of Tonnage employed annually in the Country Trade 
between the different PorU ofBritish India and Canton, for 1827-28 * 1828-29 . . 299 

No. 26. — An Account of the Profit and Loss upon the Trade of the East-India Company between 
Europe and India, Europe and China, India and China, China and the North Ame- 
rican Colonies ; stating each separately, to the latest Period to which the same can 
be made up 300 

No. 27. — A Return of all Ships belonging to or chartered by the East>Indi« Compmy, Lost or 
Captured ; stating their Tonnage, Cai^oea, and the Voyage tbey were proiecutiiig 
when Lost or Captured 306 

TEA TRADE : 

No. 28. — A Return of the Average Time the whole Quantity of Tea sold t each Quarterly Sale 
had beeo in the Company's Warehouse prior to such Tea beii^ put up to sale. . 307 

No. 29. — An Account of Profit and Loss of the East-India Company's Tea Trade with China, 
for the Year 1829-30 : stating the Prime Cost, how calculated ; the Freight -and 
Demorage ; the Charges incurred to Landing, &c. &c ; the Interest as calculated to 
make the upset Price ; the Insurance as calculated to make the upset Price ; the 
Supercargoes' Commission ; and all other Charges incurred, either in England or 
China, to the Debit of Account, and the Sale Amount to the Credit . . . . 309 

No. SO. — An Account of the Quantity of Tea Exported by the East-India Company from 
Canton ; specifying the several kinds of Tea, and the Average Prime Cost per Pound, 
in the Year 1829-30 314 

No. 31 An Account of the several Sales of the East>India Company in the Year I8S0; 

specifying the Quantity of each kind of Tea sold, the Average Price at which each 
kmd was put up, aod at which each kind was sold at each Sale . . . . . . 316 

RATES OF EXCHANGE : 

No. 32.— A Return of the Rates of Exchange and Sights at which the Selea Committee at 
Canton have drawn Bills on the several Presidencies in India, and the Amount, In 
the Year 1829-30 320 

No. 33.— A Return of the Rates of Exchange and Sights at which the Select Committee at 
Canton have drawn Bills on the Court of Directors in England; distinguishing the 
Rates at which the Canton Treasury was opened generally from the Rates at which 
the Commanders and Officers of the Company's Ships were suiqtlied with Bills agree- 
able to the Charterparty Agreements .. .. 321 

COTTON WOOL: 
No. 34 — Papers respecting the Character and Qualities of Cotton Wool SS2 

MILITARY STORES: 
No. 36. — An Account of the Quantity and Value of Milita^ Stores exported to India, in the 
Year 1829-30; specifying the average Rate of Freight pa Ton at which tbey have 
been sent out .. ,. ., .. .. .. .... "*" 



I 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 957 



No. 1. — An Account of the Arrears of Land Revenue left outstanding at the 

close of the Official Year, at each of the Presidencies in India. 

(In continufttioii of an Account dated I7th March 1830; Ordered, 15th February 1830.) 



• 
YEAR. 


Arrears of Land Rbvemub left Outstanding. 




BENGAL. 


MADRAS. 


BOMBAY. 


WHOLE OF 
INDIA. 


30th April 1839 


2,605,693 


i,a43,a4a 


478,150 


4,3a7»o85 



East-India House, 1 
sist February 1831. / 



(Errors excepted.) 



JAMES C. MELVILL, 

Aud. India Accts. 



tL 



258 



ACCOUNTS Axm PAPERS laid beiobe tbe 



No. 2.— -An Account^ in detail^ of the Revenues and Charges of the Ceded and 

(In continuation of an Aooonnt dated 



REVENUES. 



BENGAL: 
Ceded Provinces . . 



Conquered ditto . . . 



Benares 



Ceded Nerbuddah. . 



Ceded Burmese . • . . 



MADRAS: 

Camatic 

Ceded and Con- "i 
quered Provinces J 

Tanjore 

Countries ceded by 1 
the Nizam J 



Mint 


Stanps. 


£. 


31,483 


— ■ 


30,615 


3>59o 


26^93 


i>342 


— 


— 


160 



Jodidal 

Fees and 

Fines. 



Revenue 
Cvrent* 



£. 

6,909 

3,870 
1.717 

Nizam. 
11,645 



Rev«niei. 



935,586 



839,541 



«96,30i 



473,170 



Re?enae. 



£. 



100,663 



19,979 



44,3^5 



Abkafee* 



£. 



57,8«i 



67,«34 



6,427 



£. 

» ,463^4 

1,843,068 
530,344 
357,414 



88,536 



Smphia 

not in 

JTununa* 



16,787 
6,496 



11 



.o»9| 



Revenue 



Sjer and 
Abkaree. 



Customs 

and 

Town 

Duties. 



£. 

45,334 

106,357 

38,778 

35,356 > 
Tributes [ 
131,818) 

AvaT^reaty 
173,897 



Mised- 
laneous. 



TOTAL 
Rbvbnus* 



£. 

99,599 

49,597 
48,609 

12,357 



17,163 



£. 

86,630 

378,461 

75,459 
33,873 



£. 
8,846 

9^34 

14,039 

7,414 



11,637 



if767,67« 



^Z^M^S 



735i655 



4931138 



391,383 



Fannsand 



Land 
Customs. 



£. 



8,888 



13,685 



3,398 



5A65 



91,354 



4,395 



150,735 



94.807 



50,606 



66,004 



Sea 
Customs. 



£. 



7,741 



48,813 



3,603 



Salt. 



Tobacco 
Monopoly 



TOTAL. 



£. 



139,685 



57,5«4 



37,437 



£. 



£. 



85,138 



£. 



If 389^1 19 



1>8 16^711 



43%986 



640^8 



SELECT COMMITTEE ( 



HOUSE OF COMMONS. Ug 



CoKQiTEKXD Protimcks under the Presideiieies cfBatOAh, Madbas and Boitbat. 
MMtISSS) (Mend, Ifith Febnwir 1830.; 













CHAEGES. 










— 


Mia. 




Judicial 


Diet of 


Pnlioe. 


ItenniM, 

c3a. 


Ptulolia 

Rcwme. 


CiliUni* 


U!*eel- 
Uneou*. 


TOTAL. 


BENGAL: 
Ceded Prcincei... 

Conquered ditto . . . 


i. 

6,809 
3,6e6 


110,685 
98.971 
131674 


£■ 
191,4117 

63,065 

67.693 

9,108 


15.456 
H.877 
8*>1 


i. 
45.508 

51.660 

18.338 

3.301 


161,393 
103,003 
41.995 
43.785 

51.485 


£. 
70.009 

385.304 
36,350 
91,654 


30,014 
97.096 
13,660 
3.B95 


£. 

90,496 

119.666 
795 


i. 

475.981 

sji, 

905,910 
84.564 

59.485 


Ceded Merbiidddi.. 
Ceded Bumen.... 





tinnmi*- , iw„u. 
Col'?"! cKU 


CuMoou. 


aak. 


AUawuiM* 


Cb^ju. 


ToUcM 
M«.op,l,. 


Judkkl 


PeiuioiM 

•tul 


TOTAL. 


HADBAS: 
Cenutk 

C<d«l and Con-\ 

T»*« 

Coontiiee cededl 
bjUieNiiun../ 


£. 

i«3,893 
96.139 
»9,883 
50,»n 


£. 
6a,09« 
14.979 
19,581 
31,166 


£. 

3.651 
13.783 
1.413 
1.774 


«6.350 
19.16J 
4,830 


f. 
803.639 

105.940 

100,765 


£. 

15,915 
1,886 


tSS. 
35,638 


£. 
35.857 
38.975 


16,996 


£. 
479.871 
349.060 
168,353 
189,197 



2 L2 



ACCOUNTS AMD PAPERS laid bbfobe the 



.continued.) 



No. 2. — An Account, in detail, of the Revenues and Charges of the Ceded and 

(In continiMiou of in Account dMtd 



PoueMions ceded ' 
bjr the Guicowar ; 



Posaewiona ceded' 
by and conquered 
from the Mah- ^ 



REVENUES: 



LAND REVENUE. 



£. 



Feet, 



East- India Home, \ 
aiBt Feb. 1831. J 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



361 



Conquered Proriuces under the Presidencies of Bengal, Madras and Bombay — coiitinued. 
6lfa Mar 1830: Ordmd, ISth Fcbnwrr 1830.) 





BOUBAY. 

by the Guicotrar / 

Ponetsions ceded} 


CHARGES. 




LAND REVENUE. 


CUSTOMS. 


Jndid.] 
nd 
Poliw 




EincMiiii, 






CbifgMco)- 
Revenoe 


cbiTgnbleoii Lud 
Remiue. , Cumoim. 


Ouum.. 


Sri- 

Il«dpti. 


T( 




£. 
41,87a 

173.766 


f. 
I45.'38 


1.397 


f. 

.67 

10.598 


£. 
30,94s 

14ftOj6 


£. 

6«57 

«,957 


£. 
3M10 

"■7,313 


1 
6 









(EtTon excepted.) 



JAMES C. MELVILL, 
Aud. lodia Ac« 




ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS i^d befobb the 



No. 3.— An AocoUNt of the Pbr-Centaoe at which the several Heads of Revenue were 

collected in India, in the Year 1828-29. 

(In ccntinutionof ui Account oidered ISth Febrau? ISSO.) 



Bbkoal : 


Bengal, 
Bebarand 
Orim. 


Bcnsret. 


Ceded 


Conqueied 


— 


andAbkarree J 

CuBtotns 


7.357 
17.335 


6,837 
16,777 


9.994 
»3.105 


9,889 
9,530 






- 


16 
5,1 8a 
12,133 


3 












mp 




Madbab: 


AndenC 


Csmstie. 


-no^oM. 


Ceded Bnd 
Conquered 
Fronncea. 


PTOTinwi 
ceded by tlje 


Land Revenue (including Ab- 1 

karree and Moturpha j 

Customs 

Salt . 


8,743 
15.640 
18«3 


15,985 
9.304 
19.547 


11,869 

2,655 
19,906 


14,908 

9,597 
33,3=0 


14,>70 
8,688 






Stamps 


- 


17.404 


- 






Aneient 
PMieukins. 


Pouesiions 
ceded bj the 


ceded bj>Dd 

&omthe 
Mabnttu. 


- 




Land Revenue and Sayer 

Customs 


•15,74 
13,28 


14 
4.33 


Ills 






Stamps 


- 


19.5 


- 







East-India House, \ 
21 St February 1831. J 



(Errors excepted.) 




SELECT COMMITTEE ot thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 96S 



Na4. 

ESTIMATE of the I^britorial Revenues and Charges of India* under 
their respective Heads, whether payable in India or in England, for the 
Year 1839^30; with a Statement of the grounds upon which the Estimate 
under each Head is formed; and showing how the Surplus of such 
Revenues if any, has been applied, or the Deficiency provided for. 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS LAito* sSFd^ the 



No. 4. — Estimate of the Territorial Revenues and Charges of India, under their respective Heads, 
upon which the Estimate under each Head is fonned, and showing how the 



REVENUES. 



Mints ; 

Poal-Office 

Stamps 

Judicial 

Land Revenue . . . 

Customs 

Ceded Territoiy . . . . 
Burmese Cessions . . 

Salt 

Opium 

Marine .,,.,..,. 
Ava Indemnification 

Bhurtpore 

Subsidies 

Bank Profits 



30,160 

87,93a 

333,223 

87,696 

8,320,680 

7851320 

569,676 

103,340 

i>93<.400 

1.757.400 

35.380 

92,320 

34,800 



14.167,437 



32,665 
52,869 



3,851,40a 
590.726 



469.530 



5-»23,673 



Deduct, 
Amount in which it is calculated the several' 
collectors have over-estimated the total re- 
ceipts, arising chiefly from their having 
drawn too favourable a view of the re- 
sources from land revenues, owing to the 
circumstances described in the governor's 
minute, dated 13th November i8ag, and 
noticed by the Court in their review of 
the Bombay finances for the yeais 1837-98 
and 1698-39 



9,098,6' 
461,0 



6,619 



Revenues in India 1839-30 £ 



£. 

36.483 

138.565 

494,693 

114,670 

14,314.660 

i.837>i37 

569,«78 

103,340 

9,491,619 

1,757,400 

61,769 

>98,330 

34,800 



The foregoing Estimates are grounded on Estimates and Accounts received from lodiai so ftr a* 
respects the Kevenues and Charges incurred abroad ; and upoD actual payments, so lar at respects 
the Home Charges. 

The rate of exchange observed in this Account is that fiaed by the Board of ConHufssliHiers fyr 
the affairs of India. 



East-India House, 1 
a 1st March 1B31. J 




SELECT COMMITTEE of tut HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



265 



whether payable in India or in England, for the Year 1829-30 ; with a Statement of the grounds 
Surplus of such Revenues (if any) has been applied, or the Deficiency provided for. 



C H A R O £ & 



Civfl Charges .... 

Fronncial Battalions,'^ 
and in the Western > 
Fh>vinces ...••• J 

MinU 

Pott-Office 

Stamps 

Judicial 

Land Revenue .... 

Customs 

Ceded Territory . . 

Burmese Cessions . . 

Salt 

apium 
arine 

Petty Claims on Car- 1 

natic J 

Buildings and Repairs 
Military 



Interest on Debts.. 



BENGAL. 



£. 
857,124 

81,780 

74,240 

1,037,156 

1,512,756 

119,131 
145,696 
41,760 
527,800 
666,420 
133,626 



319,928 
4,100,330 



MADRAS. 



£. 
289,859 



9,793,347 
1,914,000 



21,942 
29,223 
10,802 

376,756 
1,107,864 

46,476 



79,891 

22,441 

24,000 

48,825 
3,222,230 



BOMBAY. 



506,801 



5,350 

17,944 
20,632 

280,996 

703.305 
31,309 



PENANG. 



I 



PORE ' MALACCA. 



77,049 



£. 
28,196 



Total. 



22,142 



Total Charges, 1 ^ '< 
bdudiDg Interest J ^ \ "•'^•347 



5,280,309 
904,696 



6t486>oo5 



193,343 



134,134 
1,758,679 



3,652493 
20,317 



5,220 ! 

17,735 ; 



5,742 
2,401 



100,004 
104 



36,339 



3,672,810 



2,352 
1,716 



£. 
1,781,171 

132,124 

80,768 
128,947 

105,674 
1,694,908 

3,323,925 
196,916 
145,696 
41,760 
607,691 
666420 
339,410 

24,000 

516,201 
9,103,091 



26,210 



100,108 j 36,339 26,210 



18,888,702 
2,139,117 

21,027,819 



Expense of St. Helena 93,004 

Political Charges incurred in EMOLANih lAcludiDg 1 ^ 

Invoice Amount of Stores consigned to India J i ' '^ ' 

22,862,985 
22,054,416 



Grand Total of Charges 
Deduct Revenues 



Estimated Surplus Charge in 1829-30 £ 



808,569^ 



^ The yariation between this amount and that shown 10 the Account dated 21st February 1831, 
is the result of information received from Madras since the latter Account was prepared. 

The deBckocy wiU be provided for either bj reductiou of cash balance^ or oj incuiring fresh 
debt. 

The proportions of the laid charges paid or payable in England are as fellow ; wc £. 

Interest on debts, part of the £2,139,117 stated above under that head 962,220 

EmenseofSt Helena 93.004 

Poutictl chaiges incurred in England as above 1,742,162 



2,797»386 



(Errors excepted. ) 



8M 



JAMES C. MELVILL, 

Aud. India Accts. 




966 



ACCOUNTS AMD PAPERS laid befoiie thk 



No. 5. — Amount of the Territorial Debt owing by the East-India Company at their 
several Presidencies in the East-Indies, and of the Interest thereupon, according 
to the latest Advices. 





BENGAL. 


HADEA8. 


BOMBAY. ; TOTAL. 


Quick Stocks, 30th April 1839. 


at 2.. the 
Current Bupee. 

£. 

253.103 

34,709,083 

10,436,917 

53.546 

«,i47 

159,343 


ata<. the 
Pkgoda. 

£. 

. 36,057 

6,637 

9,633,154 

479.999 


u2t.3d.Qm 
Rupee. 

£. 

115.435 

998.986 
313.879 


f. 
403.585 

94.7 15.7 90 

13.297.357 

747.434 

3,147 

153,343 




Ditto at 6ditto 

Ditto at 8diUo 

Ditto at 10 ditto 

Treasury Notes at a and a j pie \ 
per cent, per diem J 


Total Debts bearing Interest . . . 
Debu not bearing Interest 


35.605,439 
6,787.539 


3,154,847 1 558,990 
1,056,919 j 537,075 


39,318,576 
8.381,519 


ToTAi Dmts in India £ 


49,399.971 


4,311,759 


1,095.365 


47.700,095 



Interest computed upon the above Debu £9,1 16,971 



(Errors excepted.) 



East-India House, i 
3ist March 1831./ 



JAHES C. MELVILL, 

And. India Accts. 




SELECT COMMIXXEG or tbi HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



«67 



" a 






;11 



1 S " I " 






-I ^^ 

« = w as 






I 
fi 

3 - , 






Sin 



d.llf 



lljl^'isf Hill 

i-^«il III rs'iij 

iiiiliiiM^IFft 
Jsr;|i^nii||^li 



S J< 



"> 







f68 ACCOUNTS AMD PAPERS laid ravoBS tux 

Appendix (A.) 

Cessation of Extraordinary Receipts ,.« (£750,637.) 

1 
BENGALI 

Balance received fironi Scindia's governmeot In i8i8>ag, on account of the 
auxiliary horse . . . , . , . , 



18-39, ■'° account of war charges . 
being part of the tribute 



Received (nan the Bhurtporc state in 

Received from the A»a government „. , 

of one crcre imposed upon that state (under tteatf) at the dose of the 
war 

Sum introduced as a receipt into the accounts (^ 1838-39, ia order to 
adjust the statenent made of the Malwa ofHum tran s a cti o n s in the year 
1833-34 

Diminution which is likely to take place in the anunmt of re-funds and 
re-credits deducted from the milUary chutes of 1838-89 ' 

MADRAS : 

i late native pension fund, credited as an extraordinary 



Balance of 1 
receipt in 1 



i Madras Rupees 5,80,361, or , 



Sicca Rupees 



Equal to 



Afpendu (B.) 



Sicca Rupeei. 
13,89,837 
7,74,391 



33,00,000 



78,95.340 



756,637 



Falling-off in Ordinary Revenues .«..„» (£167,706.) 



Probable falling-off in the Bengal revenues, diiefly in the receipts from 1 Sicn Snpca. 

30,00,000 



Opium, whidi it is supposed will be afiected by the abolition of me mcno- 
' " ■ ■ ■ InMalwa 



poly of the article ii 
Ditto in the Madras revenues, whidi m iSsS-sg were above ; 
their average amount; Madras Rupees 3,19,660, or < 

Deduct, 
Probable amount of inqvoreiBeit in the Bombay revenue ; Bombay Ru- 
pees 5,86,410, or 



Equal to 




SELECT COMMITTEE ov the HOUSE OP COMMONS. 469 

Appendix (C.) 



Sura which it is eidmaied will be umuatly let B^>art to meet the cliiUM of 
the creditor! of the late rajah of Tanjore 



Eqnalto £ 



6,00,000 

57.500 



Appendix (D.) 

Addition to the Charge for Interert of Indian Debt „».. (£425,506.) 



Probable iniufficiency of the local aurplni of India to meet tbe demanda of 
Commerce, for re-pajrment of iiuna Inued in En^and to the Territorial 
department: 

In 18S9-30 W19.537 

1S30-3' 3»7r*94 

i83i-3t 463.735 

i83«-33 319,386 

1833-34 199,986 

£1,909,398 Siea Rupee*. 

at i/i 1 per Sicca Rupee . . i.9ft«3^«3 

Cbunu OD account of Deccaa and Bhortpore priae property 5o,o0|000 



Deduct, 
Amount in which it ti estimated the Indian caih balancea 
majr be reduced below the amount at which they atood 
on 30th April 1839 1,00,00,000 

Difierence to be provided for by incurrii^ fredi debt i,49,s3,4«3 
Annual inletnt on tfaia amount, at 5 per cent. . . 

Probable addition to the ciiarge &>r ioterait ai tht baliwce of Ihtt CvMtic 

fund; Hadrai Rupee* s,a6^63, or .. 

Inierett 00 the further amount at Indian debt which it it eatimated wiD be 
incuired in order to pay off tbe debt duo fh» Tgnilofy to Conuaeroe iii 
1B34: 
Eatimated debt to Coamerce <n w Jlagr iSafc vilniiif the Sicca 

l^eeati/11 £6,679.715 

or, Swa Rupeei 6,96,98.330, at 5 per cent intereat 



Scca Rtqieea 



7,46,1 7» 




«70 



AjCCpUNTS AND PAPERS laid befose the 



Appendix (£.) 

Difference between l/U the Sicca Rupee, and the Rates at which the Territorial 
Advances are made in England (^9,109.) 



Advancefl to Civil and Military Funds . . 

Interest on Camatic Stock 

Bills drawn on the Court for interest of Indian Debt , 



"Stoat SDd Amonnt 
oftbeAdmuM. 


Ratetatnhiebtbcy 
utiMda. 


£. 
195,000 


(a) 
at 3/3 p. S. Rupee, 




on an average. 


95.000 


at 9/5. 24 p. S. 
Rupee. 


780,000 


at 3/0. 6 ditto, nt 




an average. 


1,000,000 


ata/ii 



Difference between 1/1 1 and 3/1^ per Sicca Rupee on £1,000,000, is, Sicca Rupees 9,39,8 
equal to £89,109. 

{a) After deducting from the actual rates the interest on the advances. 



Appendix (F.) 
Reduction of Military Establishments, &c 



C^934.77li0 



Various reductions comprised in the Estimates lud I Seta Aipccf. I £• 

before the Select Committee of the House of Com- I 

mons in June last 83.93.335 ■ ■ or. 794.778 

Net amotuit of further* reductions, of which informe- I ■. - 

tion has been received since those Estimates were ' 

framed, after deducting the cost of certain addib'ODs ' ^ 

which have been made to establishments within the i 

same period i 14,60,867 . . 



* In the following page will be found the chief items of these further Reductions. 




SELECT GOMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 271 



Appendix (F.) — continued. 

BiNGAL. 

The two corp> of European in&ntrf, iDCorporated iolo one regiment , . . . 

Calcutta native tnilitia reduced .. .. , 

Second Nuueree battalion, diabanded . . 

Pint and aecond battalioni of native invalids, broken up 
Moonbedabad provincial battalion, diibanded 

Sebarunpore provincial battalion, diibanded . . , . 

Rangurh local battalion, reduced . . 

Establishment ot Dovlee bearen, reduced 

Further reductions in the ordnance department . . . . , , 

Appointment of r^ulating officer of invalid tbannahs to be abolished .. 

Madras. 

light field force at Kulladgee, broken up 

The two European regiments fonned into one 

Seringapatam local battalion, reduced 

Formation of the rifle corps into one of the regimenu of the line 

Saving in the Add equipments of the Hjrdrabad and Nagpore subaidiarjr 

BOHBAT. 

Reductions in the horse artilleiy 

Reductions consequent upon the statitming both batlalioDa of European artil* 
\erj at Ahmednuggur 

The two extra battalions, disbanded 

Tent allowances reduced .. 

The two European reghnenu formed into one 

The grain ration for horses reduced . . 

Batia struck off at the fiontier sutions of DecM and Bbooj (European cAcen 
excepted) 

Battalion of native invalids, broken iq> 

Imaaediale reductioa of 15 per cent, and a further proyec ti ve reductioD of 
5 per cent, dnectcd to be made in the amount of all office eatabUdunenta . . 

nofdie 



1.09,403 

67^1 
81.33+ 



7tf,550 
31.577 
3S.634 
30.099 
30,176 

a, 1 3,906 
98,480 
65,654 

1.31.307 

93>79> 



75.033 

37,516 
1,87,58a 

65,654 
1,05,046 

4S,io6 

l,68,8>4 
65.654 

56,874 
50,647 




«7e 



ACCOUNTS -kXB PAPBRS tkUD'ilM^-^tdb:^ 



Appendix (G.) 

Cessation of Extraordinary Military Char^ (£246j$40l) 



Arrears brought to account at Madras in 1898-39, 
oonnected in a great measure with the late war, 
Madras Rupees so,oo,ooo, or . . ; . 

Sum brought to account in Bengal, under the head 
of diaiges of the late war . . 



Sto^vo. 


■..*:. :.„; 


6,76,830 .. ot 


179,7<»'' 


7,00,000 .. or 


67,083 ■ 


f 


Me.8W ' 




. ,l.-l,.1 



Appendix (H.) 

Reduction of Civil and Marine EstabliBhments . 



(^310,777-) 



Varioos reductions detuled in the Estinutes laid 
before the Select Committee of the Hooso of Com- 
mons on the Tth Jnsc last 

Fuitber reductions, of which informadon has been 
received since those Estimates were framed 



i«,a8,334 . . or »5|B,iJ4q;'' 

*»6,i4,55i .. orj 154,7a* ' 



* la the &ll«irii« page will be found the chief il 

further Amount. 



I wbicb contribute ta ddi '' 



I 



SELECriXSOSimrCBE or thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. <7d 

Chief Items of the further reductions of which information has been received since the 

estimates referred to in Appendix (H.) were framed : 



Bbnoal. 

Various reducdons in the General Department, chiefly in the Subordinate! 
Establishments / 

Expenses of the Telegraphic Establishments, the Mineralogical Survey and the 1 
ohakeq>earian Brieves / 

Reductions in the Political Department 

Ditto in the Establishments of the Judicial Department 

Ditto in the Establishments of the Revenue Department 

Further reductions in the Marine Department • • • . 

Reductions in the Secretariat, the College, and the Botanical Garden ; and the) 
Office of Superintendoit of Hindoo Researches abolished J 

Further reductions proposed in the Political Department 

Madras. 

A fixed sum allowed to the Resident in Mysore, in lieu of his former Salary) 
and Table Allowances, and the situation of Assistant to the Resident > 

aoo I i sncQ •• •• •• •• i 

Situation of Junior Accountant-general abolished, and Establishment of the ^ 
Accountant-general reduced • . . . • • j 

Additional Government Commissionership for Camatic Claims abolished, and ^ 
Establishment of the Commissioners rdluced J 

Intended reduction in the Secretariat, and consolidation of certain of the 1 
prmcipal Offices at the Plresidency, Ac J 

Intended reduction of one Judge from the Sudder Adawlut ; abolition of the 
Zillah Court of Guntoor ; substitution of Seven separate Provincial Juci^es for 
the present Provincial Courts ; and employment of Sudder Aumeen m lieu 
of ZiDah Roisters •• «• 

Fourth Member of the Board of Revenue, and the Establishments of the^i 
additional Sub*Collectors intended to be discontinued • . • • J 

Bombay. 

General reduction of the Allowances of Native Servants in the various Civil 1 
Departments / 

General revision of the Allowances of Covenanted Civil Servants 

Household Establishment of the Governor to be reduced, and Allowance^ 
to the Secretary of the Committee for examining Junior Civil Servants > 
discontinued J 

Various reductions proposed in the General Department, chiefly in the Political \ 
Branch / 

2N 



75,000 

32*400 

1,10,000 
60y00o 

1,20,000 

1,00,000 

1,40,000 

50,000 



50,117 



23,166 



44*305 



84,000 



l,OOyOOO 



16,000 



9,15,000 
1,87,000 

28,700 
ifi3»ooo 




inM 



:.iiki-:^iM 



«7* 



ACCOUNTS Awiv PAPERS i.«d 



Appendix (I.) 

Diminution of the Expenses of St. Helena, and of the Territorial Charges 
defrayed in Ei^nd (£370,000.) 



Various Reductions in the Establiiihments of Sl Helena, aa detuled in the ] 
Eitimatea laid before the Select Committee of the House of Commons on J 
7th June last J 

Diminutiott Of Uie Territorial Chaises in England 



S3,ooo 





AeTenilorUl 


Fkrtieukit of 
dHPrabiddB - 




•Political Stores 

Passages of Militaiy outvard 

Pay to Officers on Furlough and Retirement, and off-rBt&oniogt. 

Political Freight and Deniorage 

Pay-office Demands on Account of King's Troops 

Retiring Pay, Ac. to King's Troops 

Political Charges general 

Absentee Allowances, and Passage Money to Civil Servants . . 


449.803 
73,730 
388.07* 
106,663 

354,«oo 
60,000 

366,53a 
36,369 
6,192 


£. 
350,000 
60,000 
47M05 

b8o,ooo 
60,000 

350.000 
40,000 

10,000 




1.967,405 
1,700,405 


1,780,40* 






1 






£ 


847,000 









SELECT COMMITTEE of tbe HOUSE OF COMMONS. 375 



"So. 7. — STATEiiiiiNT of the Particulars of aii Item in the Account of the Commercial 
Branch of The Company^s Affairs, for the Year 1829*30, eutitled^ '' Charges 
General, amounting^ to £418,508. Js. 7d. 

(In continuation of an 'Account, dated 8d June 1830^ printed in Appendix to Flrat Report on Eaat-India 

CompiBy's Aflkir% p. 970.) 



• • 



Directors' Gratuities (one-haU) 

Proportion of Salaries and Allowances to Officers of the House and) 
Warehouses, chargeable to the Commercial Branch, according to thef 
principle established for each Office in the Ran of Accounts approved | 
by the Board of Commissioners . . . . . . . . j 

Allowances to Extra Clerks (one-third) 

East-India College, chargeable to the Commercial Branch in the propor- 
tion that the Number of Senrants Abroad employed in that Department 
bears to the Total Number of Servants on the India and China Esta 
blishments 

Supracargoes* Commission 

Annuitants and Pensioners of the Commercial Department 

Tradesmen's Bills for Expenses of the East-India House, Repairs, Taxes, 1 
Coals, Candles, &c. (one-half) . . • . . • . • . • J 

Law Charges incurred in respect of Commercial matters 

The two Widows' Funds, established for the benefit of the Home Service; 
one-half of the Grants from the Company's Cash, including an 
ment in respect of former Years 

Care of Insane Persons who have belonged to the Commercial Branch of 
the Service • • • • . . . • . • • . 

Subscriptions to Charities and on public occasions (one-half) 

Books, Maps, Charts, &c» purchased or subscribed for (one-half) 

Stationery for Home use (one-half) 

Buildings • . . • 

Regiment of Rojral East-India Volunteers 

Disbtu^ments of Agents at Out-Ports 

Inspectors and Surveyors of Shipping 

Hoys, Pilot Vessels and Cutters 

Hoyage and Lighterage 

Charges of the Naval Store Wardiouse 

UMNirers' Wages 

Pensions to Labourers 

Medical Attendance to Labourers and Deficiencies m Skk Fund 

Thidesmen's Bilk for Expenses of the Warehouses 

Taxes, Rates, Tithes, 4rc. for the Wardiouses 



lervice;! 
adjust- > 

} 



• • 



• • 



Carried forward 



• • 



«N2 



£. 


4. 


d. 


3t636 


17 





74,B56 








B,577 


13 


4 


it083 


19 


8 


71,616 


3 


10 


36»55i 


7 


6 


99,179 





H 


1,500 








1,903 


14 


10 


528 


18 


2 


508 


18 





1,667 


13 


10 


3,078 16 





10,838 


9 





3,359 15 


7 


795 


16 


10 


«44 


4 


1 


4,703 


10 


11 


909 


19 


8 


6ig 


8 


a 


147,769 


1 


lOj 


7,807 


9 





4,500 1 


13 


^h 


31,887 


8 


6 


18,590 


6 


oj 



459>713 19 B 



«76 



AOGOUNXS im PAPBBS i,im; ittfitWAMi 



Brangfat fbnmd • . 

Eut-IndU Dock Compaojr, fiv Dock Rates, Whar&g« ud RenU 
WeM-India ditto .. ditto .. ditto 

St. Katiiertne ditto . . ditto . . ditto 

London ditto . . ditto . . ditto . . . . 

Cartage and Expenie of CaravanB 

Sundry Charges on account of the preparation ofGooda fbr Sale . . 
Fees to King's Officers, and Expense of Eatries at the Custom-House 

Sundry Miscellaneous Items of a Commercial nature 

Balances in hands of Officers ofthe House, &c. mora on istHajr 18301 
than on 1st May 1839, operating as a Payment J 



Rkcbipts : 

Recdved for Expoise of Transfers, Poirers of At- 1 

tomey, &c. .. •• J 

Fines and Penalties for Breaches of Cratiacts for the 1 

provision of Commerdal Exports .. .. J 

Commercial Chaises, debited Owners of Ships in I 

Freight Accounts . . • . • • J 

Old Goods sold (Packages, &c) 

Warehouse Rent, and Rent of other Property, recaved l 

and charged in Account . j 

Wharfage, landing and Shipping Goods, more receired ' 

than paid in the present year 
Charges on Baggage of Passengers from India 
Loans to sandiy Persons, more received than adnnccd I I 

in the present year . . . . . . ■ • J | 



536 I 



146 18 
85,003 1 

360 9 
805 15 



£. 

469.71$ 

sS,oo4 

«,050 

3i« 

135 

6.675 

a.735 

477 



>9 9 
18 5 
11 6 ' 



6i 
1 . 

0* 



506,991 13 3f 



88^3 6 ,8t 



£ 418,508 7 7 ; 



The Sums received by the Company in respect of the Charges of Management of PrirctiB 
Goods will Mterate in Reduction m the Amount herein stated. ' " ■ . • . 



6,713 was recdvod <m tbii 



Branch of the Company's 



East>India House, 1 
141b March 1831. 



(Errors excepted.) 



TH08. G. LLOYD, 

Accounlant-Genenl. ' 



I 



SELECT eomairrBBi sr tan HOUSE OF COMMONS. «77 



56'-' 



id « 

3 . 

I 
< 

I 



I I 

I I 
I. S 






Hi 









11? 










511 






ll 



278 



ACOOCJNTS AND PAPERS iJih 



No. 9 — An Account of the several kinds of Goods, as Assets in hand, unsold on 
1st Ma; 1830 ; stating the Quantity and Value of Tea. 



(In eontiiuiUkm of in Accoant, d>t«d 4th May 1830, printed in Appendix to FInt R^ort a 
Compwif'R Albira, p«ge 932.) 



Teas 

China Raw Silk 

Nankeeni 

Piece Goods (India) 
Bengal Raw Silk. . . . 

Indigo 

CinnamoD • 

Pepper 

Saltpetre 

Cotton Wool 

Sugar 

Coffee 

Simdriet 



OnlatMay 
1830. 



lbs. £. 

6,006,59a .. 3.765,96* 



970.175 
464.970 



95,946 
80,718 

4,884 
46,905 

6.187 



£4i65%O«0n>- 



Bast-India House, I 
14th March 1831. j 



(Errors excepted.) 



THOS. G. LLOYD. 

AccouDtant-Geno^ 




SELECT. COMMITTEE ov t81 HOVSE OP CjOiMMONS. 279 



No. 10. — A Return of the Company's Estabushment at the Cape of Good Hope, 
with the Salaries of the different Officers thereof ; the Expense incurred for maintaining 
Warehouses ; the Rate of Agency charged on Purchases and Sales, with the Grosi 
Amount of the same ; for the Year 1829-30. 

(In eoodnuttion of an Account, dated Uh May 1890, printed in Appendix to Flnt Report on Fist Tndia 

Company*! Aflkin, p. 906.) 



EsTABLiSHMiNTy with the Salaries of the different officers thereof, and the ^-*p^fi* 

incurred for maintaining Wardiouses. 



William Hawkins, Esq., agent, salary 

Ditto commission, at 5 per cent, on net profit of sales < 

Mr. S. Oliver, confidential clerk and storekeeper salary 

Mr. A. Nitch, 1st assistant ditto 

Mr. H. R. Van Lier, 2d ditto ditto 

Watchmen 

Labourers* Wages (occasional) 

Office Rent 

Rent of Warehouses (hired of individuals) • 

Expense of landing Stores i 

Sundry Charges in conducting the Agency 

£ 



£. 


f . d. 


1,600 
xvoiie diawu in the 
present year. 

300 


67 





45 





46 





19 





45 





361 
No ftores received in 
the present year. 

33 


3,404 






Gross Amount of Purchases and Salis. 

Purchases on account of St. Helena 

Ditto goods consigned to England (Wmes) 
Sales, Gross Amount 

£ 



£. 

7,«96 

30,365 



37,661 



Memorandum : — The Company's agent at the Cape is remunerated for all the services per> 
fbnned by him by a fiixed salary, whidi, with the oommissioD paid on the net profit of the sales, 
as above shewn, constitute the whole of his allowances. 

His duties, fai addition to those of the custody and sale of the ffoods consmed by die Com- 
pany to the Cape, the purchase of stores for the supply of Su Hdena, and of merdiandise for 
consignment to England, suppljring the Company's shipping, whether enga(|ed in thdr trade, or 
conveying troops to or firom India, transmittutt intclhgBDre to the authorities both in Endand 
and fiidk, have rrference to every part of the Company's oonoems in respect to whkA his 
services may at any time be needed. 



(Erron aioepted*) 



Easulndia Houatt \ 
MthMmfc^tSst./ 



THO& O. LLOYD, 

Aoooontant-Gcneral. 



ACCOUNTS Am PAPERS un> snou tbi 



H 2 



■S 3 



1 ^ 

«| 
.S S 
Si 

I !> 



3 3 



III 



■Anna 
A O CO o 



* (»• 2 o> « jt 



.ll 
IS 



1° 

= 5 r 



■a c" g 

03.2a 

i § I 1 8 



I 



III '^ni'll 



»££ 



i.3 S! 




SELEraroaiBII'FFEEOrMiHOUSt^OI'eoMUONS. «1 



1 I 




1 

1^ 
OS 

!i 

iS 

>5 

-U 






U'^ 



i-8 



11 If 



1 O 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS lud boou the 







2: 3 






u 



in 

" a j 
Is ' 



. IQ a> 0> % tf 

•s - *^ *- t^ a 

^ as" to ttf t5 u 



«3 ^ 



i8 |8 8 ?5S8 



I" I * I I 



I I Sl?l 




SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. <8S 



1 1 If mil 







i 

i a 






li 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS laid 



\o. 13. — Return of the Nomber of Lkbkses which have been gnnted by the Court of 
Directors, and by the Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India, to Individuals 
to reside in India ; and also, of the Number refused, in each Year since 1814. 



YEARS. 


Number of Peisoni 

licensed br 

the Court of Directon. 

to reside in 

India. 


Number of Fmtmt 

towbom 

the Court of Wtecton 

have 

tefuwd UceuKi. 


Number ol Fawaat 

permitted 

to procoed to IndM 

bytbeBoHd 


1814 






11 


3 




1815 






41 


6 


— 


1816 






41 


17 




1817 






71 


>7 


16 


1818 






89 


37 




1819 






75 


38 




iSfio 






73 


16 




1831 






78 


30 




1833 






101 


33 




1833 






117 


11 




1834 






95 


14 




i8«6 






103 


11 




i8«6 






99 


17 




i8«7 






106 


7 




i8s8 






99 


14 




1839 






137 


18 




1830 






111 


9 




Total 




1447 


367 


72 



Of the 1^7 penoni whose applicationi were con^Iied with liy the Cenit of I&eclow , 59 
do not appear to have proceeded. 

Of the 367 refused by the Court, and forwarded to the Board of CommiMfcoen (under the 
pro¥i»ions of the Act of the 53 Geo. 3, c 155, s. 33), 72 were permitted to pnoeeed by the 
Board 1 58 of these availed themsdvet of such p 



Eatt-India House, 
sad Febniaiy 



':.} 




SELECT COMMITTEE of rm HOUSE OS COMMONS. 889 

Noa. 14-19. — STATnffiNTfl of the Cowibrce of BritiA India with Great Britain, North Aiaerica. Soutfa 
AmericB, Bud Fore^n Bur<^, for 1827-28 and 1828-29; distinguishing the Trade of the flut-India 
Coavptay from that of Individuals, and Merchandize from IVeasure. 

(BeiagscaUiinutiaaof tbeStatunent prMulBd durii^ the Utt SMdon of PiriuunentO 



(No. 14.)— IMPORTS INTO BENGAL. 





1827.28; 


18S8-S9: 




M,.,!,^ 


BnlllMi. 


TOTAL. 




Bunion. 


TOTAL. 






Ftam Great Britain on ac- 
count of the India Com- ■ 


3^3"« 


— 


3,48,31a 


1,51.916 


8^6414 


3.98,330 


IHtto . . . OD account of M- ) 
nt* Indiriduala $ 


'A^MM* 


73,6.0 


1,87,17,064 


j.!io.a9,79i 


1.687 


2.30,31,478 


Bma North America 


4.M.6H 


I7,iii,ai7 


.1.7S.8.9 


4.53,>07 


>5,67«e» 


Mi,«I,096 


— SouthAmerica 


i,6«.3«» 


.0,350 


1,8!M78 


a,88,lM 


2.10,645 


4«8,770 


— BraaiU 


8oji76 


10,75,000 


llji5.n« 


_ 


_ 


_ 




87,118 


l,lo,9«5 


".9«."43 


- 


- 




- Copenhagen 


_ 


— Frmco 


13,83,930 


9.«9*t6 


«3.1W66 


17.10.434 


4.93,816 


•«.04,«50 


Hollind 


: 


_ 




~ 


_ 




— Cedix 


_ 




nA9' 

73.9" 


_ 








8a,76i 


SttMia . . ... 


- 


73.9" 


3.73.fl3fl 


- 




3.73.333 


* 


Total... SiocaRapMs 


M3»13*7U 


3».»SS8 


l«.S«.43,n« 


«WSO,89,366 


«5..0,551 


3.76.09.917 




386 ACCOUNTS and PAPERS laid befobe the 

Nos. ll-19.^-StateinenU of the Commerce of British India with Great Britain, North America, South 
America, and Forei^ Europe, for 1827-28 and 1828-29; distinguishing the Trade of the Bast-Indk 
Company from that of Individuals, and Merchandize from Treasure — continued. 



(No. 15.)— EXPORTS FROM BENGAL. 





lSS7-28t 


l8iS-!9: 






BiUIion. 


TOTAL. 


UeivlundiM. 


Bullion. 


TOTAL. 


To Great Britain on account ) 
of the Eaat-lodia Ctm-y 


1,75,37,160 


34,58,7«o 


2,09,95,870 


Ml,e6,l65 


_ 


141.36,165 


Ditto .. . on account of M- 1 


1,««,76,636 


7.06,979 


1,39,83,615 


I.l6rf0,s99 


13,41,443 


l,38,8l,74« 


To North America 


■6,87«9 


- 


16,87,548 


16,01,633 


- 


16,01.63a 


- South America 


- 


- 


- 


99,605 


- 


99A« 


nniTil. . . 


4,37,6*8 
1,93,866 




4,37.668 
1,93,866 


5,68,631 
1,13,433 




1.13.43S 








Copenhagen 








•6,86,304 
91,477 


13,500 


86,99,804 
9M77 


33.87,107 
1,74.333 




a3.87.107 




_ 


— Sweden 


i>74.3aa 




Total . . . Sicca Rupees 


3,49,10,649 


41,79,199 


3,90,89,848 


3,07,10,184 


13,41443 


3.l9*l.«n 



East-India House, l 
331I Februaiy 1831./ 



(Erron excepted.) 



J, MILL, 

of India Correspondence. 




SELECT COMMITXEB or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. «87 



Not. 14-19. — Statooenta of the Commerce c^ British India with Great Britain, North America, South 
America, and ForeigQ Europe, for 1827-28 and 1828-29; distinguishing the Trade of the Eut-Iw 
CotqMoy from that of Indiriduals, and Mercfaaodiie from Treasure — coiititmed. 



(No. !«.>— IMPORTS INTO PORT ST. GEORGE AND SimORDINATES. 





ie!7-!8: 


18!8-»i 






BhUoo. 


TOTAL. 


nt. 


Sdlioo. 










Fimai Gittt Britcin on k-) 
ooum of the Eut-IndiaJ^ 
Oa'VJ ) 

Ditto ... on accouDt of Pri- 1 


46,.38 
3*>,9a8 


60,156 
16.633 


«6,87.*>J 
■,««.394 

3.67.461 


33,64.8«6 
3.819 

3.88,493 


»5,156 
7.065 

1,000 


33.79.981 






_ Luboo 




Fnnce 


3.8*493 








Totit... Hadni Bupeet 


•9.74.688 


?e.689 


30*1.«67 


37.47,'37 


33.!" 


37.80.348 



* The Reuma trf' i8a7>s8 isd 18B8-99 do wit dtsHiwuiih the Amount of Conpraj't Tni» fton that of 




388 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS laid 



No3. 14-19. — Statements of the Commerce of British India with Great Kitain, North America, South 
America, and Foreign Europe, for 1827-28 and 1828-29 ; distinguishing the Trade of the Bast-India 
Company from that of Individuals, and Merchandize from Treasure — continued. 



(No. 17.)— EXPORTS FROM FORT ST. GEORGE AND SUBORDINATES. 





1887-88.- 


1888-291 




MerdwndiK. 


BoUion. 


TOTAU 


Merdiudb.. 


Bullion. 


TOTAX. 


To Great Britain on account^ 
of the East-Indui Com- V 


1 














^•34,56,906 


37,01,830 


71.58,736 


35,07.741 


7.3».663 




Ditto ... on account of Pri- ? 


4»*>*H 




'.ifiAU 


- 


1,36,4>4 


so,953 


- 


«0«5S 




South America 


l,l6,8ai 






6a,906 




6l,90« 




- 




- 


— Lisbon 





- Cadiz 


— 


— 


- 


- 


— 


— 


- GibnJiar 


- 


— 


- 


- 


— 


- 


— France 


i,59,66<> 


34,750 


1, 94^410 


1,38,006 


- 


i.«8,oo6 


Total . . . Madras Rupees 


75.71,641 


34.750 


76,06,391 


37,19.606 


7.38,663 


44.5>>>6|> 



* The Returns of 1827-98 and 1838-39 do not distinguish the Amount of Company's Tnda &om'd 
Individuals. 



East- India Mouse, 1 
33d February 1831. J 



(Errors excepted.) 




SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 289 



JVos. 14-19. — Statements of the Commerce of British India with Great Britain, North 
America, South America, and Foreign Europe, for 1827*28 and 1828-29 ; distinguishing the 
Trade of the East-India Company from that of Individuals, and Merchandize from Treasure 
—continued. 



{No. 18 }— IMPORTS INTO BOMBAY AND SURAT. 





1837-28. 


1828-29. 






BolliMl. 


TOTAL. 




BuUioa. 


TOTAL. 


From Great Britain, on tc-'i 
count of the Easulndia V 
Company J 

Ditto . . on account ot\ 


81,88,899 

1,14,076 

3.79.958 
i,oi,oai 


• 

8,040 
1,14a 


• 

81.96,939 

16,613 

1,14,076 

3,79,a58 
1,01^1 


• 

78,19484 
14,617 

6,39,917 
73.9a6 


ft 


• 

78,13,484 
14.617 


— BrasB 


UAon 






6,39,917 
73.996 




Total... Bondiay Ha. 


87,91,795 


9,>8« 


86,00,907 


85.33.944 


- 


85.33.944 



* The Ba^nqa do not funuih the uioatit of the Compasj's Tirade fbr tbcw jetn. 

*p 




ago ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS laid before the 

No9. 14-19. —Statements of the Commerce of Britiah India with Great Britun, North 
America, South America, and Foreign Europe, for 1827-28 and 1B28-29; distinguidiing the 
Trade of the East-India Company from that of Indhiduals, and Merchandise from Treasure 
— continued. 



(No. 19.)— EXPORTS FROM BOMBAY AND SURAT. 





1887-88. 


1888-89. 






BuUion. 


TOTAL 


Uariiandiic 


BuUion. 


TOTAL 


To Great Britain, on ao) 
couDtof theEaat-IadUj- 

Co"P"y ) 

Ditto . . on account or I 
PriTate IndiridualB J 


5M6,68a 

6,8>3 
78,i68 

".65,356 


5,39,«4> 
13,960 


56,85,9a3 
6,813 
78,568 

178,316 


69,46,5*> 
69,967 


■3.91,13a 


8347,«J« 


Brazila 




Liilwn 






se.967 


Hamburgh 






Total . . . Rupeei 


53.97,419 


5,5",»01 


69,49.6m 


70.»«H87 


■3.9>.t3« 


8a«7.«l» 



> Tlie Retomi do not fiimiih the amotint of the Company'i l^ade. 



Eut-Iodia House, l 
99d Febniar; 1831./ 



Errm excepted.) 




SELECT COMMITTEE of thi HOUiSE OF CQHMONS. 1^1 



No. SO. 

ABSTRACT STATEMENT of the Value of Imports ioto Bengal. Madras 
and Bombay, fxom Great Britain* Foreign Europe, and North and 
South America, and of Exfobts from Bengal, Madras and Bombay, to 
Great Britain, For^gn Europe, and North and South America, in 
1827-28> and 1828<29. distinguishing the Imports and Exports by the 
East-India Company, from those by Individuals, and Merchandize from 
Treasure. 




8 P« 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS laid bbtore the 



\o. 20. Abstract Statement of the Value of Iuports into Bengal, Madras and Bombay, frtun Greet 

Bombay, to Great Britain, Foreign Europe, and North and South America, in 1827-28, and 1828-29 ; 
Merchandize from Treasure. 

(Being i 



IMPORTS. 






PROM GREAT BRITAIN: 






BY THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY. 


BY INDIVIDUALS. 


TOTAL 

Treasuwfiwn 
GrotBciMiD. 






ytaAMiOae. 


'neuure. 


TOTAL. 




TrsMure. 


TOTAL. 




i8a7-j8.. 

1828-29,. 


3,48,31a 
1,51.916 


2,46414 


3^8,312 
3,98.330 


9.94,19,745 
3.31.97.100 


81,660 
26,843 


9,95.01.405 
3.32,93.943 


9,98.49,717 
3,36.99,«73 






5,00,338 


2,46,414 


7,46,649 


6,96,16,845 


1,08,503 


6,37,25,348 


6,34,71,990 




EXPORTS. 






TO GREAT BRITAIN. 






BY THE EAST-INDIA COMPANY. 


BY INDIVIDUALS. 


TOTAL 

MerdnmdiM 

■Dd 
Tieanm to 
OiMt BtUaia. 








TreMnre. 


TOTAL. 


Mercfaaudiie. 


Trcanre. 


TOTAL. 




i8a7-a8.. 


».75,37.150 
1,41,26,165 


34,58,7ao 


3.09.95.870 
1,41,96,165 


2,08,80,224 
9.20,94,580 


49.48.050 
33,65,938 


3,58,38,274 
9,54,59.818 


4,68,94,144 
3.95,85,983 






3.16.63.315 


34.58,780 


3.51.92,035 


4,99,74,804 


83,13,988 


5,19,88,093 


8,64,10, 1 «7 


L^ 


Eait-l 


ndUHouM,! 












4 


I 



SELECT COMMITTEE op thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 893 

Britain, Porrign Europe, asd North and South America, and of Exports from Bengal^ Madras and 
tlistinguisbing Ibe Imports and Exports by the East-India Company, from those by Individuals, and 



dtntaK tfa« Ittt SeMton of PudiMncnt.} 



[ M P O R T S. 



PROM FOREIGN EUROPE: 



BY INDIVIDUALS. 



TOTAL IMPORTS. 



BY INDIVIDUALS. 



34^6,649 
38.61.763 



10,56,044 
4.94.816 



34.94.653 
37.56,579 



98,77.765 
17.85.689 



37.51.066 3,30,80,007 
95.45J57 I 3.73.70.447 



«6,39,969 46,63,454 69,96493 7.04.50.454 65,69,191 ,7,70,19.64.5 



40,15.499 
95.53.769 



3.70,95.436 
3,99,34.909 



EXPORTS. 



TO FOREIGN EUROPE -. 



BY INDIVIDUALS. 



BY INDIVIDUALS. 



TOTAL EXPORTS. 



3«.86.663 
t8,6ii895 



HeRtMDdiw. Trw wuw . TOTAL. 



33.57,873 
98,61,895 



94,63,849 
93.53,717 



94,63,849 
93,53.717 



4^1,77,879 
4,14,36,187 



84,67,980 
33.65.938 



5.96,45.859 
4.48.01,525 



61*58,488 6i,9io 69,19,698 



1.18,33.91819.7447.384 



(Emm Exceptsd.) 



J. MILL, 
r oTIndia Cone^KmdcDce. 




294 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS laid befose the 



No. 21-22. — An Accooht of the Quamtitt and Valob of Cargoes exported by 
American Ships from the different Ports of British India, for the Years 1827*28 
and 1828-29. 



(Being a continuation of the Account presented during the last Session of 



No. 21— BENGAL. 







1827-28. 


1828-29. 




Quantity. 


Value. 


Quantity. 


Value. 






S.R8. 




8.1U. 


Piece Goods 


• . bales 




4,36,694 


~— 


6,53,314 


Shaiirls 


parcels 




240 






Indigo 


. . chests 


3,048 


8,48,779 


1,483 


4,76,^ 


Ir :: :: : 


bags 
. . bales 


207 


4,234 


4,575 


97>a»4 


Saltpetre 


bags 


14,795 


1,21,626 


20,148 


1,72,449 


Grain 


• • • • • 


500 


2,500 


— 


--. 


Gums 

Cotton 


packages 
blues 


271 


8,956 


— 


6,133 


Gunnies and Gunney Ba^ 


|B • • • • 


293 


2,325 


t,386 


4i5l6 


Shell-lac, Lac-lake, Lt 
and Stick-lac . . 


«=-^y^'}n,«nnd« 




52,940 




49,228 


Turmeric . . 


packages 


1>194 


5,220 


—mm 


3,220 


Ginger 


• • • • • 


«»295 


8,264 




21,107 


Castor Oil 


• • • • • 






^^^ 


._« 


Cocoa Nut Oil . . 


• • ■ • • 


... 


_^ 


, 


•■». 


Safflower . • 


• • • • • 


.ii.. 


._ 




«.«• 


Skins and Hides 


• ■ • • • 


._ 


41,541 




45,893 


Tallow Candles .. 


• • • • • 


..i. 




. 


• ^^ m 0^^^ 


Wax ditto . . 


. . boxes 


15 


1,065 


.. 


_ 


Sugar Candy 


• • • • • 


^^ 




_— 


_ 


Seeds of SorU • . 


bags 


— 


-.— 


«.» 


mmmm. 


Wearing Apparel 


• • • • • 




1,649 


^■i^BV 


— 


Sal Ammoniac • . 


maunds 




_ 


_ 


5,051 


Elephants' Teeth 


• • • • • 


— i 


— . 


_ 


*^ » ^^ 


Borax and Tincal 


packages 




— 


— ~ 


5.719 


Salt Provisions . . 


• • • • -« 




2,037 


.i... 


867 


Canvas and Vitrv 
Hemp, Flax, and Twine . 


. . bales 






^^^ 


• 


bundles 


2,559 


28,047 


..mm. 


«4,044 


Carpets and Blankets 


• • • • • 




197 


~-m 


. ^ 


Tobacco 


• • • • • 


— 




«. 


585 


Munjeet . . 


• ■ • • • 


— 


— 


^mrnim 




Carriages . . 


• • • • • 




— 


^^^gm 


— - 


Cutch 


• • • • • 


— 


--^ 


.^mm 


—I.. 


Cordage . . 


• • ■ • • 




119 


•— i— • 


_ 


Sundries . . 


• • • • • 


M^H^ 






-^ 


Spices 

Madeira Wine . . 


• • • • • 




— . 


^. 


._ 


. . pipes 








— . 


Liquors • . 

• 


• • ■ • • 


'— " 


2,590 


— ^ 


105 



(continued. • 



A. 



SELECT COMMITTEE ov not HOUSE OF COMMONS. «95 

No. 21-22««— -An Account of the Quantity and Value of Cargoes exported by American 
Ships from the different Ports of British India, for the Years 1827-28 and 1828-29— 
eoniinued. 





• • bags 

• • • • 


1827.28. 


1888-89. 


BENGAL— cwtfliiiitdL 


QnsBtitj. 


Viloe. 


Qaaatity. 


Vilue. 


Pepper 

Cassia 

Coffee 


- 

54 
555 


S.IU. 
429 

SOI 

205 

lis 

«,oo5 
57^»35 

6.731 

1,63. 
1.149 

458 

M74 
9J.549 

>4.49» 
588 

5.967 
«,«83 


Z 1 



• 


S.IU. 


Galls 




Camphire 

Coir 

Redwood 

Rattans •• 
Mother-o*-pearl . . 

Benjamin 

Senna Leares 
Saco 


• • • • 
maunds 


4»697 
4»oss 

i,«4i 

6s9 


■"■B" •• "" •• 

Tin 


Foreign Pieoe Goods 

Alum 

Kahurbah 
Assafetida 
Iron Kentledge . . 
Europe, Sun&es 

Books 

Cardemoms 

Cubebs 

Nankeens . . 


• • • • 

• • • • 

• • • • 

• • • • 

• • • • 
. • • • 

• • • • 


2,148 
io,s78 


Tea 

Cabinet Ware 


.. chests 


— 


Pictures and Prints 
aodcs and Watches 
Ghee 

Beads 

Pearb 


• • • • 

• • • • 


— 


Glass Ware 

Diamonds and Emeralds. . 
Foreign Skins 
ForeigB Sugar . . 
Foreij^ Gums 
Veidigris • • 
TortoMsshell 

Manilla Hemp . . 
Foreign Sundries.. «. 


• • • . 

• • • • 

• • • • 
maunds 

• • • • 
maunds 

• • • • 

• • • • 

• • • • 

Rupees 


fi.319 

S»101 

3.758 
1,007 


Total . . 




16,87,548 


— 


16^1,1638 



• • 



296 ACCOUNTS and PAPERS laid befobe the 

No. 21-22. — An Account of the Quantify and Value of Cargoes exported by American 
Ships from the <Uffcrent Ports of British India, for the Years 1827-28 and 1828-29— 
continued. 



No. 22.-FORT ST. GEORGE. 








1827-28. 


1628-29. 





«™.tltj. 


TaluB. 


Opsatity. 


Vslae. 


K«» Goods pieco 

CoHee 

GoMSkbi boles 

Skins, Tonoed 

So.p 

Tin 

AleaodBeer 

Bmndy 

Tuimieric 

Ginger 

Cochineal 

Indigo 

SaJipetre 

Oilmana' Stores 

Provisions 

Sundries 


^ 


S.ltt. 
1,06,988 

5,439 
iga 

30 

S3,73S 
18 


^ 


19OT3 


Total . . 


- 


1,36,4114 


- 


•o«53 





No. aS^BOMBAY. 












18n-28. 


1828.29. 





a-uit,. 


Valne. 


ttaaaaij. 


ValMS. 


Alum 

Aloes 


- 


S.IU. 
1.304 


^ 


S^ 


Coir and Coir Ropes . . 

Camphire.. .. 

Canes and Rattans 

Cardamoms 

Cooa. white (Arrowroot) 

Cassis snd Hogkesseo (tassia 

Coffee 


B^) '.'. 


( 


i 



SELECT COMMITTEE of tmi HOUSE OF COMMONS. «97 

No. 21-22.— An Account of the Quantity and Value of Cargoes exported by American 
Ships from the different Ports of British India, for the Years 1827-28 and 1828-29— 
eontitmed. 





1827.S& 


182a-29. 


No. Sa-BOMBAT-cmtmwi 


Qnutit;. 


VslDB. 


QnUtitr. 


Vslue. 






SJU 




S.1U. 


Brought forward 





1,304 


__ 




Comeliins 










Cotton 











__ 


Dates 


. 








__ 


Elephants' Teeth 

Galls, Ptrsia 

















450 








GiD«r 

Gnun 


- 




- 


- 


Gum Ammoniac 


_ 





_ 










9,516 


— 


— 


Arabic 




i>493 






Myrrh 





450 








Columbo Root 










Hides and SUai of sorts 





__ 








Hingra (AsnfcEUda) 


— 


— 


— 


— 












I*ory Work and Ware 






















Mace 














Nankeens 














Oil of diffbeni soru 


__ 











Olibanum 














Pepper 














Munjest (Madda) 


— 


— 


— 


— 


Nutnwgs 










PieceGood. 










ReTancherry Seerah (Gumb<^) 


— 


— 


— 


— 


Saltpetre 










happan* iSraul Wood > . 
Sfcdt of varioiu Mrts 


— 


— 


— 












Sliawli 








_ 


Si*" 


— 


— 


— 1 — 




— 


— 


— 1 — 


T" ■:. ■:. ■:. :: :: 


— 


— 


_ 1 _ 


TortoiseriieU 







! _ 


TuteoacM 

Tunnenc 


— 




— ; — 


Wax 








1 


Vermilion 


.._ 





( 


Cubebs - 








1 


Cudiakhnr (Borax) 


— 


_ 


— ' — 


Sondner 


— 


60 


~ 1 — 


. 


- 


6»8i3 


- 1 - 




(Errora 

«Q 



J. MILL, 
oflndia Cormpondeoce. 



«98 



ACCOUNTS AHD PAPERS law sdntitE the 



Xo. -24. — An Account of the Quantity of Aherican Tonnage which has cleared 
out from different Porta of British India, in 1827-28 and 1828-29. 



(Being ■ continuUion of the Account preMnlcd during (he lut Sesiion of nrliunent.) 



From Calcutta for America .. 

— Calcutta for tbttCoromandel Coast 

— Madras for America 

— Madras for Calcutta 

— Madras for Ceylon 

— Ingenun for Tranquebar 

— Bombay for America . . 

— Bombay for Calcutta 

— Bombay for Penai^and Eastward i 



Islandi 



ToUl for America . . 

Total from Port to Port in India 



I - 



3^85 



3.570 
509 



(Errors excepted.) 



East-India House, 1 
iiA Febmaiy 1831. J 



J. MILL, 
Examiner of locUa Com 




SELECT COMMITTEE or toi HOUSE OF <X)){MONS. «ag 



No. 25. — An Account of the Quantity of Tonnaob employed annually in the Country 
Trade between the differeut Ports of British India and Cantco, tot the Years 1827-28 
and 1828--29. 

(Being acoadnuUion of tlie AcMunt jtfnented during the lait Senioo of hriiuiient.} 







Exported froin the Poru of Biituh India for Canton. 


In the 
VEAR 


1 FORT 
CALCUTTA. 1 ST.OEOROE 


BOMBAY. 


TOTAL. 


Shl|». 


Tom. 


Skip.. 


T<n>. 


atr,. 


Ton*. 


SU,... 


Toofc 


i827<3B 

1838.99 


"7 
16 


17«9 


5 


5.m 
4,376 


97 
36 


«7.«90 
«S.73> 


50 


49,891 
41,651 




43 


a8,6«3 1 9 


9.4S8 


7a 


53rf»l 


195 


9>,549 







Imported from Canton to 


the Pom of BritUi India 




Intlie 
YEAR 


CALCUTTA. 


FOET 
ST. GEORGE 

IMl 


BOMBAT. 


TOTAL. 


aiiii». 


Ton>. 


SU,.. 


T... 


SUpe. 


t™. 


aup.. 


Tom. 


1897-98 

1818-99 


18 6,159 
14 5,9«8 


10 
7 


5«" 
4,810 


30 
30 


16,748 
17,544 


58 

5' 


98,949 
98,989 




39 19,087 


17 


10,159 


60 


34,999 


109 


66,531 



^Gttoti exceptcde^ 



Bii^Indla Hoaw. 1 




J. MILL, 

Examiner of India CorreipoDdence. 



2 Q $e 



ACCOUNTS AHO FAP£RS laid bbfobe the 



No. 26. — An Account of the Profit and Loss upon the Trade of the Eabt-Indu 
and the North American Colonies ; stating each separately. 



(In condniia&ni of an Account dated 17th Hard) 1B30, printed ii 



Profit or Loss upon the Tradb of the East- 





UPON IMPORTS 




Prime Cort, 














ctlcuUtedattbe 

BMe* 

axedbytlieBoudof 














FREIGHT 


otMerdModiie 


rOTAL COST 








for tbeAffkinot India 






and 








-TtSST 




























tbe Goodi. 










21 the Cun* Rupee, 














^34 tbe M' Rupee, 




























£. 


£. 


£. 


£. 


£. 




1829-30.... 


1,513,506 


103,050 


57.592 

1 


1.673.148 


1,151,856 






UPON EXPORTS TO INDIA. 







Prime CoK, 


"^r^" 


TOTAL 


StleAmbnn 


t, 








FreWK 
















aMtOHneiin 




aod 












EnglaS; 


1 


bitocftated 








iSaS-tfi. 


136.530 


e. 


£. 

140.949 


£. 

74^50 


f. 


C 








^H 














TbeWonbL 


niUiAllldtfai 


iMgt I^ret in ^^^H 



SELECT COMMITTEE or tbi HOUSE OF COMMONS, aoi 



Company between Europe and India, Europe and China, India and China, and China 
to the latest Period to which the same can be made up. 



Appendix lo SmoimI Repmrt on Eaat'lDdia Company'! Alkm, p. 1188.} 



India Company between Europe and India. 



FROM INDIA. 






PROFIT. 
£. 


Losa 


Cbugct in Ind* 

not added 
to the lDTOiee*i 

•IM, Pioflt Of LOM 

from loteiett 
mnd EiehuRc ud 

BmI Debt>, tee. 
utile MOW B.ta. 

• Ai( Pntfil. 
1,751 


NET 
PROFIT. 


NET 
LOSS. 


— 




£. 


f. 


.... 18.9.30 




TOTAI 


TRADE BETWEEN EUROPE AND INDIA. 






PROFIT. 


on ComvMMBti 

t nS& bltWMB 

bKlDdine Jetliwn., 
1 aUnsts. *c. 


NST 
PROFIT.: 


NET 
LOSS. 


— 




£. 


585.940 


X. 


f. 


t. 


818-B9 



fth ril— ■ ikiiB laJM J»^ la fte Ma 




ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS uip s^rpsB th£ . 

No. 2C — continued. — Profit or Loss upon the Tbade o 



UPON IMPORTS 



Prime Coat, 

calcuUwd St 

6i. Sd. IhelUe. 



MerduuidiM 
cilculBtcd at 

the Sale Amount 
of the Oopdi. 



£. 
44,766 



TOTAL COST 

•ad 

CHARGES. 



£. 

3,385,674 



UPON EXPORTS 





Prime Com and 
Chargam 
England. 


'"ias" 


Chargwin 
China and 
EzpoiKof 
Unlo«ding. M 
61. 8d the Tale. 




TOTAL COST 

and 

CHAROE& 




I8a8-a9 


657.351 15.03a 


£. 
1.165 


£. 

14.350 


£. 

687.898 





No Louea at Sea occurred on Consignments between Europe and China in tbU Year. 

IVofit upon Imports from China brought down £650,377 

Ditto upon Teas sent to Canada . . i4fB70 

Ditto ditto Halifax 5.785 



Total Profit on the China Trade 



^(M3« 



Had the Company's Profit and Loss Accounts been nude up at the Mercantile Rate of 
Exchan^, as ascertained from the rates at which Bills have been drawn from Londnn on 
Calcutta in each Year, instead of the Rates fixed by the Board of Commissionen for liic Affairs 
of India, as regards the re-payment of Territorial Advances, the abore Account of clicir Trade 




SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 303 

(he EaAt-Iiidia Company bctnt.>cn Kchui>e and China. 



FROM CHINA. 



Chugnin 

j Cbins of (ha 

pmioiM Year, 

"™'- not (dded to tbe 

InToicM, &c. 

■t&.fU. the Ttlt. 



NET PROFIT. 



1899-30. 



SalcAnHunt, 
nlculatnl it ., . 

<:.. M. Ihe I^«*'- 



7aa,54fl 34,644 



Consi|tnnien(i of merrinndiM nude lo China, 
' b«ing icmitUnceB Tor the purpoie vt sup|i1)HiiK the 
I Ouilon Tmiury with Fundi far the purchiue uf 
' the Homemrd InveHtmenti, enter, both a« rekpccln 
' their cost* ■nd their proceed*, into the nleulation 
: for tbe cbwge of providing thoie fundi, or ihr nte 
I per talc ia ilcriing uwd in thii Account. The view 

j alreadjr giTcn of the Homeward Trade consequently 

^ combioes, in its general reaulti, the iuue ai to 
pmfiti or I0M of all lucb connignmcnu. The ttiitG- 
. menti therefore now giien of the procecdsofthe con. 
I ugnmenti from Englandand India, ctiiitiarled with 
f. their cost, arc not lo be rc^srdcd aa exhibiting any 
a<lditioaal profit or loaa bey^ that almdy Ktated. 



betwect) Europe and India would have exhibited a Lom of £934,164, instead of a Lom of 
£,'>^.'>-d40> ™'''>'>g a difference of .. .. .. .. ,. £351,776 

The profit upon tlieir China Tfade would alio have been increaied in the above 

period by tlic aum of . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 954,08.5 



Hdu'i^ a Total Difference of 



£605,861 



The above Accounl of Profit or Lo« from Import! from India ii lubfect to adjuitment, with 
lefercnoe lo the Anwunt with whidi the Tanitorial Branch i* chargeable In respect of the Lou 
upon coDiignmenU of HerdiandiM, Made with a vinr to nwet the dcnandi upon the Home 
Treasury, for Bilb of Exchange drawn for Intereat of India Debt, in confbnnity with the Flan 
of 1814, for tbe arrangement (rf the Home Accoimt*> 




ACCOUNTS AKD PAFEBS u» saniKB 4bs • 

No. 26 — eontittued. — Phofit or Loss iqwn the Teadk 



Prime Coat and 

j Cbargct in India. 

calcultEed U the 

I lUtes Gxed b^ the 

Board of Commib 

I aionera for the ABiin 

of Indim, for Uie 

Repsyment o( 

Teititorud Advwwei : 



'Si. 3d. the Bf. Rupee. 



96,758 



CbMget 

in Chins, >t 

6t. BJ. the Tale. 



4.114 



SupnCBTgoei* 
Conimiuion 

England. 



TOTAL COST 

and 

CHABGE8. 



Profit or Loss upon the Trade of the East-India 



ON TEAS SENT TO CANADA. 



including I Demonige 



616^04 j 44,407 ■ 8,340 

I 



I 



Chaiget 
of Mer- 
efaandne 



Total 
Cort and 
Charget. 



64,620 i 78,890 



ConateB- 
menti M- 



14,370 ■ — 



* The Frdght of the above Consignmenta, which were for the greater part conveyed fivm 
slated in the Return maile to the Honouiable Coniinttlee, under date of lOlh March 1630. TTie 
tor the performance of the circuitoiu royage, together with payment! to Shipi taken up in Indii 
from this charge for Freight, instead of the charge above inierted, the Lots thereon would he 
the same proportion. 

Eaat-India Houie, 1 
14th March 1831. J 




SELECT COMMITTEE 01 Toz House OF COMMONS. SOS 

the East-India Company between India and China. 





aaleAiMunt, 

calndrtcri 
u 61. W. tbe 


Pratt. 


Lou. 


LooNitScm 

on CoDugnmenti 

between 
India aiidOtni, 

nCM,be. 


NetPntft 


NMLOH. 


— 


— : 




£. 


68.605 


£. 


£. 


£. 

66,605 


1828-29. 



Company between China and the North American Colonies- 



ON TEAS SENT TO HALIFAX. 





"SSf 


Frime 
CoMoT 

of tht 

tbote. 


■notipi. 


DotiMuu) 
ChugMoT 

ineumdat 
Halite. 


Tolil 

CoMIBd 


SiU 
Amomt. 


Proflt. 


LoMeiatSM 

□D 

Halifcx. 


. — 




tii. 

44«>e85 


£. 

84.767 


4*849 


«,809 


3M»6 


38,688 


£. 

. 6,273 


£. 

488 


. . 1839.30. 




Net Pnet £5.785 





India to China by Shipa proceeding ctrcmtoiuly from Eaghwd, faaa been qiportioiwd in the mode 
extra charge, howetrer, paid to the Ownen in die ioatancea BOoyr t eeJ in the above Statement, 
for this Krvicet amounm to obIt £68,039; ^ the TnBi or Loh od tfni TVade irere deductad 
redooed to the tmn of £39,886 ; and Uw Fnat m Oe Honeward TnA 



f £39.886; 
(£irora ezctfiteda) 



« B 



d TVade would be reduced in 



TH08. G. LLOY D, 

AooouBtaiit'GeBeral- 




S06 ACX70UNTS and PAPERS laid beforb the 

No. 27.— A Rbtuem of «U Ships hdoapDg to or chartered by the Ga8T-T)<dia 
CoitPANT, Lost or Captured ; statiiig th^ Tonnage, Cargoes, and the Voyage they 
were prosecuting when Lost or Captured. 

(In MDtlnntian of an Account datad Mi M^ 1830, printMl in Appendix to Rnt lUpoit o« 
Ewt-India Coiiipui;'i Attun, p. 976.] 



(Errors excepted.) 

East-India House, \ THOS. G. LLOTD, 

14th March 1831./ Accountant-General 




S£L£QX gQd(M;TTK£4>r TBE UOUS& Q^ C^QMMONS. d07 



No. 28k — A Abtdbn of th» Avtfage Tinifl the whole qwntity-of Tu lohl at ew^ 
Quarterly Sale bad been in the CompaiT's Warehouse prior to tiieh Tea brin^ put 

up to Sale. 

(in continiution of «& Accoont, datad 4Ui BUj 1630, printed in Appendii .10 Pint Report on 
EmuImH* CoaipMi;^ AHun, p. SffT). 



tst March Sale . . 1830 ig montht. 

3d ditto ditto 91 ditto. 

1 at September Sale . . 1S30 30 ditto. 

3d ditto ditto 30 diuo. 

The above Account has been confined to the quantity of Compaay'i Tea told ai each 
sale ; but, Jn addition to each of the period* abore stated, must be added a further period 
of three months, to ascertain the time which elapses from the arrival of the Tea id this 
country, until the sale proceeds of the same are received by the Company ; vix. 

From the time of the ship's arrival till the receipt of the cai^ in the 

warehouse . . . . . . . . 1 month. 

From the time the Tea is put up to sale, until the same is paid for by 
the buyers. The time allowed by the Company for the payment of 
the Tea is three months ; but, in consideration of the deposit, and 
that a portion of the Teas are paid for before the expiration of the 
time allowed, the period is taken at . . 3 ditto. 



East-India Company's Tea Warehouses, \ HEN. H. GOODHALL. 

3d March 1831. J 




2 R2 



ACCOUNTS AED PAPERS Uib a£Mift tbe 



No. 29j — An Account of PaoyiT and Loss of the Eabt-Ihdia Company's 1^ 
Freight and Demofa^, ihe Chat^ea ineurred in Landing, &c. See. ; the Interest «• 
Price ; the Supracargoes' Commission ; and all other Charges incurred, either in 

[In erotimMion oTu Acemmt, dsUd 10th ISf WSO^ 
Dr. 



Prime Costs of Tea sold in It:l29-30, imported in tbe undermentioned years : 

Ut. Tale: 

Teas imported ID 1837 .. 9,091,068 .. 1,578,863 

Ditto .. 1828 .. 16,011,594. .. 3,089,391 

Ditto .. 1829 .. 2,354,606 .. 47*4«3 

/.ii. Q7»457,368 7iW!et5,l35,676cileiil>tedate«.UtlMi:u« 

That beinethe actual rate which it has cost tbe Company to place fundi in 1 
China during the present Charter (exclusive of interest and insurance) . . J 

Proportion of interest attaditne to the consienments of merchandize outward,"^ 
and other funds furnished for the provision of the Teas, constituent the > 
ImportatioDi of the years above specified J 

Proportion of insurance attaching to the consignments of merchandiae out- 1 
ward, ditto ditto J 

Insurance, 3 per cent, on cost of homeward investment, premium covered . . 

Interest from the provision of the funds in China to the arrival of the invest* 't 
ment in England, 6 months, at 5 per cent, per annum on cost, as calcu- > 
latcd to mane Ihe upset price , . ' , . . . J 

Freight and demorsge 

Expenses of Isnding, housing, warehouse-room, carting, preparing 1 £. 
for sale, and all cbarges, merchandize in England : 

Proportion, altachmg to tbe China Trade, of establishment for 1 e, -,, 
the joint management of (he trade to India and China . . J "".©'S 

Paper, printing and stationery for the Tea department ..I 3,184 

Rent and repairs of warehouses, calculated at tbe rate of 6 per'^ 
cent, per annum on the capital invested therein (of which the > 38,637 
amount of interest of rent, at5percenL per annum, is£33,B56)J 

Taxes and parochial rates thereon, coals, candle% &c 5>978 

Wages of labourers employed at tbe Tea warehouses . . . . 68,17a 

Charges of landing Tea, &c from the ships, (including p'O'1 
portion of establishment employed upon this duty) . . j 3*333 

Amountof cooperage upon tea-chests, incurred at the period of 1 3,071 

landing tbem . . . , . . . . J 

Cartage of Tea from (he docks to the warehouses (including \ SUSA 
wear and tear of caravans) J^ 

Carried forward £ I94f805 




SELECT COMMITTEE ov not HOUSE OF COMMONS. 309 

Tradb witb China, fur tlie Year IH29-30; statiiig, the Prime Cost, how calculat«d; the 
caicuUtsd to make up the upset Price ; the Insurance at calculated to make up Ae upArt 
En^lfauid or China, to the Debit of Account, and the Sale Amount to the Credit. 

priBtfd in Appendix 10 Fint R«pori on EMt-lndi* Coinpui;~a Abin, p. 860.) 




Carried furward 



310 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS i.Am bbfobb the 



Nu. 29.— An Account of Profit and Lobs of the EaBt-Iodia Company's Tea Trade 
and Demoraga, the Charges incurred io Landing, &c &c. ; the Interest as calcolated 
the Supracargoea' Commission ; and all other Chains incurred, either in England or 
Dr. 



Brought forward . . £ 

Articles supplied for the repair of packages and other purposes, 1 
after the receipt of the Tea in the warehouses . . - ■ -* I 

Dock-rates and wharfage payable to the East-India Dock 1 i 
Company on Tea imported . . . . . . ■ . J 



194.805 
9.799 



the quantity of Tea sold 
England to the estimated realization of ; 



Annual allowance granted to Commanders of Company's ships ) ' 
acting an Commodores of the Fleet at Canton ; also, a pension > 1,000 
(a a retired inspector of Tea, paid in England . . . . } 

Proportion of Commercial charges of a general description, notl 

attadiing to any particular dcparlinent, and sundry miscella- > 7ii4a 

neous expenses .. .. ,,) 

^, 219,536 
Didutt, ' 

For such part of the sums 
fngagcmoiits cr ' ' ' ' 
iif their China 
mcnt of chorget 

Or equal to id. 804 per lb. 

Interest from the arrival of the Teas 

tlie sale amount, 18 months on cost, la months on freight andcberges, at 

.'', per cent, per annum, as calculated to make the upset price , . . . I 

:jupracargoes' commission : 2 per cent, on net sale amount, deducting charges 

Additional interest, incurred in China and in England, beyond the charge for 

interest included in the calculation for the upset price, as stated in 

E\ idence before the Honourable Committee of the House of Commons : 



From the provision of funds in China to the arrival of the Teas') 
in England, aj months, at 5 per cent, on cost .. i 

From the arrival of the Teas in England to the realization of 
the same, as stated in Accounts presented to the Honour* 
able Committee of the House of Commons, 93} months : 

Interest assumed in the calculation for the upset price iSmonthsrl 
4i months, at 5 per cent, per annum on cost . . . . J 

On freight and demorage 7} months (the whole of the freight) 
being payable 3 months from the arrival of the Teas in^- 
England) at 5 per cent, per annum j i 



32,096 



207,3 n 
166,581 
44,766 



64.837 




S£L£Cr COMMITTEE or i 



; HOUSE m COMMONS. 311 



with Qdatf (at the year 1839-80 ; lUting, the Prime Cost, bow calculated ; the Freight 
to iaak« up die apaet Price ; thte Inauranee u calculated to make tq> ttw upset PVice ; 
China, to ttie Debit of Aceount. and the Sale Amount to the Credit — eontitmed. 




Salb AMOinrr or Tiai 






ACCOUNTS AWD PAPERS £m» Bfes/ottB-TaB 



No. 29. — An Account of Profit and Lobs of the East-India Coanpony's Tea Trade 
and DemoTBge, the Charges incurred in Landing, &«. &e. ; the Interest qs caltwlated 
the Supracargfoes' Commission ; and all other Qur^ incurred, either in England or 

. . continued. ) 



Brought dowD, amount of Net Profit which results after calculating as part of -> 
the cost of the Tea, interest, insurance, &c. as above mentioned . . J 

In framing the price of Tea from which the cost tn the above Account is cal-' 
culated, the funds drawn from India in repayment of Territorial charges for 
the supply of the China Treasury, are valued at rates which exceed the 
current market rates of exdiange, and give a value thereto exceeding that 
which, upon mercantile principles, would be assigned (o them ; the dif- 
ference operatmg in &vour of the Territory in the adjustment of the ac- 
count between the two branches, and amounting upon this part of the 
Trade to 



The amount of the Profit, char^g the account with interest of capital and*! 
insurance, but adjusting it with reference to the mercantile rate c 
change, would be 



)ital and*! 
e of ex. > 



so9iai9 



East-India House, \ 
14th March 1831./ 




SELECT' GOMMin^fiE «r..TK» HOUSB OF; COMMONS, sis 



with CUna, for tlu Year 1929-80 ; stating:, the Prime Cost, hoiv calculated ; the Preiglit 
to make up the upwt Price ; the Insurance as calculated to make up the i^iset Price ; 
China, to the Debit of Account, and the Sale Amount to the Credit — contitmed. 

I 

£. 

Amount of Net Profit which resultt after calculating as part of the cost of the i „ 

Tea, interest, insurance, ttc as before rtated / . » 9 

Add: 

The amount of such interett, which i* replaced to thU Company out of 
the Sale proceeds, the capital employed in the Trade beins their own, 
and not subjecting their funds to any actual payment on tnii account > 
as well as uie amount ioduded in the iwit on account (^ insurance, 
deducting the actual losses at sea In 1899-30. 
Interest £333,359 ; 

Insurance, (actual losses at sea, £■ ) . . 78,856 



J 411,108 
Total retvnt ofPn^t frrtnt thit Trade, applicaile to the appro- } ■ „ 

''■■ I 

Difference arising from the rate of exchange of funds derived from ludia,^ ; 

as above stated, operating in favour of the Territory in the adjustment I ! 

of the account between the two branches, and amounting upon this f; si4>03g 

part of the Trade to .. .. J 

Total return which aould be derived Jrom thi* Trade nere the 1 

tschanget in the account between Territory and Commerce ad' > i 834,356 
Jutted at the current rate* \\ 



The amounts of interest and insurance stated in the Return mode to the Honourable Com- 
Biittec under this date, in continuation of an Account, doted 17th March 1830, have relerence 
only to the charge* made under those denominations not included in the computation of the 
value of the Tale, for framing the upset prices of Tea. 

(Errors excepted.) THOS. G. LLOVD. 

Accountant-GeneraL 




»a 



ACCOUNTS Am PAPERS laid 9W0«b tbjs ■ 



No. 30. — An Account of the Quantity of Tea Exported l^ the East-India Company 
from Canton ; spec^yiDgr the several kinds of Tea, and the Avera^ Prime CoBt per 
Pound, in the Year 1829-30. 



TEAS EXPORTED TO ENGLAND. 



fiohea . . . . 

Coogou 

Campoi . . . . 

Souchong . . 

Pekoe 

Twankay . . . . . . 

Hyson Skin 

Young Hyson . . . , . . ■ . . . . . 

TEAS EXPORTED TO THE NORTH AMERICAN COLONIES. 

Bohea 

Congou .. .. .. .. .. .. ,. ., 

Souchong .. .. •• ■• .. .. .. .. 

Pekoe 

Twankay .. .. .. .. 

HyiOD Skin 

Young Hyson 

Hyson . . . . . . 

Gunpowder 



PRIME COST 
per Pound. 



LBs. 

4,3BS,8g6 

19.003,303 

556.885 

67,63a 

4.733.704 



Lbt. 

339.759 



15.90 > 
13415 



d. 
9636 
3-099 
7*383 

■584 

3-703 

4-411 

3-469 



Average 

PRIME COST 

per Pound. 



t. d. 
o 8-857 
10-679 



t 4*300 

I 3-S03 



East-India House, \ 
14th March 1831. J 



(Erron excepted.) 



THOS. G. LLOYD, 

Acco un tan t-GeaenL 




SELECT. COMMITTEE w ' 



: HOUSE OF COMMONS. SIS 



No. 31. 
AN ACCOUNT of the Kveral Salis of the EuT-Imu Cohfant, in the 
Year 1830; specifying the Quantity of each kind of Tea aold, the 
Average Price at which each kind was put up, and at which each kind 
was sold at each Sale. 




S16 



: ACC3i)BS13c liuk: PAHJUJ.UibliMiMiiMi ' > 1 1 i> 



SI 



ll 

s e 
•I < 



< = 
1.1 



1 

< 

H 
D 


{ill 

ri 


^ -iifffffs 1 ■I'isf 


rr 


- g - s - s =• g - i =• g " 


1 


. s S 1 1 6 i i f s 1 1 f 

5 -■ i 1 i s s- 1 ,- 1 5 ^ 


£ 




s -J ;s ^ ^ -s ^ -.s -1 '1 f -1 ^ J 


i 

5 


lllf 




S 


s 


a l|i|i||ill|il 




i 


z 

2 :::::::•:■•• • 

B 

s , . _. 

J III II iilMi 



SELECXiiCQlUBXXEE ^. Mot. HOUffli OK iGOliMONS. SIT 



t-fH 



.8 q A 



? 


i 3: 
f J 1 


1 


i 


1 1 1 1 1 1 1 • 


E 


1 


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-^ * •« 



I I I I I I I I I I It 



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I I I I I I I I I II 




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II 






ACXX)UNTS AND PAPERS luo nn>u tsb 



3 « 
i "^ 

'i s 



o s 
.s > 



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No. 32. — A Return of the Rates of Exchanob and Sights at wfaidi the ^^leci 6oin- 
mittee at Canton have drawn Bills on the several Presidencies 4n Indi^, >ncL the 
Amount, in the Year 1829-30. > 



- a? 



^ ~ 



(In continuation of an Aooount, dated 4th May 1S90, printed in Appendix to Fint Report A ^trlndia 

Company's AflUn* p. 948.) ^ 



- .< 





BENGAL. ^. • 


CHINA 
SEASON. 


RATE OF EXCHANGE. 


SIGHT. 


AMOUNT 

reeetvedat 

CANTON. 


AMOmUT^ 

Bayable aft Bengi^ re- 
duced into Steriing at 
the Rates Azit^ bv the 
Board of CbmmissMners 
1^ the Aflairs trf Bidia» 
ht the nii-pa{nieBt of 
Territorial Charges^ viz. 
&. the current rufae. 


1829.30.. • 


a* 20a S.Rs. p' 100 dollars. 


aodaya. 


S.Drs. 

821^30 


- A". - 



There have not been any Bills drawn from Canton on the other Presid^cies of India;^ 

the above year. 



East-India House, l 
4th March 1831. / 



(Errors excepted.) 



THOs. g: LLOigO,- * 

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ACCOUNTS Aso PAPERS um mtofi tbe 



No. 34. 
PAPERS 

RESPECTING 

THE CHARACTER AND QUALITIES OF COTTON-WOOL. 



Oflice of Committee of PriTj Counril for Trade, 
Sir: Whitehall, Uth Match 1831. 

In compliance with an Order from the Select Committee on East-Iodia Affairs, dated 
*iHth ultimo, I have the honour to transmit herewith copies of all I^ettert and Papem 
respecting the Characten and Qualities of Cotton-Wool, which are to be found in tbe 
records of this office, together with specimens of sereral sorts of cottoo. 

I have the honour to be. Sir, 
Sir Henry Parnell, Bart. Your roost obedient humble serrant, 

&c &c. &c Thomas Lack. 



EAST-INDIA COTTON-WOOL. 

M«idil893. 

TiiESB memoranda on tbe subject of East-Iodia cotton-wool, it is humbljr considered, 
may not unapprupriately be brought under the review of the Govemiaent of the country 
ut this moment, when the important question regarding the East-India aad Wcat-India 
.sugiir is under discussion. 

'I'liL' view which lias been taken of this subjeet, after much inrestigation, amountt to 
this, that the superiority of Indian fabrics orer those of this country, chiefly, if not alto* 
tfcther, arises from tbe material, and not from the tkiil of the oatiTW, in either tpHmitig 
iir Kt^iiring. It seems to have etcaped notice, that the cotton- wod q{ America tm 
Imliit are not grown upou the same tpeciet of plant. This circumstaace, witboutfitftlier 
i>vid^iii'e, mav be considered conclusive that the nature of their fniib mot eamttiBUy 
differ. >i.s well &.<) the fabrics made from them. 

It is beyond all doubt, tliat the whole of the cotton-wool of both Americu, the West- 
ludici anu Bourbon, is cultivated upon a biennial plant, of which botanist* imIm sevvral 
spci'i(.<r< ; but they arc considered by the most scientific person in this country, if not h 
Luroix', to be only varieties of one plant. 

TJie 




SELECT COMMITTEE ot the HOUSE OF COMMONS. StS 

The cotton-wool of British India is chiefly cultivated on the annual plant Horbaceuni, 
which is the ume that ia cultivated in all otiier parts uf the world, except the countries 
before mentioned ; but the soil and climate of most parts uf British India appear to give 
a superiority to its quality which no cotton-wool of other countries can equal. 

The objections to the East-India cotton- wool by the British manufacturers are, its dirty 
stato when imported, the fast seeds adhering to the wool (the nature of the plant), whicn 
in Uie operation of removing in this country greatly destroys its quality, and the ahort- 
tVK» of tne staple, which last is an important objection, as it requires a heavy expense in 
the alteration of the machinery for its use ; but some eminent manufacturers have declared, 
tliat if the cotton^wool of India was sent home in a clean state any objections to its use 
would vanish. 

The nfreat error, and that of a meet lamentable nature, as regards India, was the not 
watchiiie the revolution in the growth and manufacture of cotton-wool, which commenced 
with ArKwright's invention, between forty and fifty years ago. Previous to that period, 
British India, had from time immemorial, suppliwl all the liighly -civilized parts of the 
known world, with her delicate cotton fabrics, which do other country on earth can 
imitate. 

Arkwrit;Lt constructed his spinning-mills, for the use of the only cotton-wool then 
kiuiwn iu this country > that from the western world. As his ingemouK invention extended, 
an incri-ased denianu arose for the same kind of cotton-wool. Shortly after, the suuthcni 
proviiii-es of the United States drew tlieir attention to the cultiviition of the wune species 
of plant, and for that object, lar^gely imported slaves from Africa ; and althougn it is 
believed forty years ago not a bag of cotton-wool was grown in the Unileil States, they 
now supply more than half the wants of the British manufacturers, and send it to tliis 
country in their owu ships, upon the same duty as from the British culonies. 

It i^) by the means which have now been attempted to be dcscribitl that the poor 
people of British ludia have lost their legitimate manufaeture for foreign use, and by the 
opening of the trade to India, are likely, if some judicious and energetic measures are 
not speedily adopted, to be soon altogether deprived of the growth of cotton-uuol, and 
the manufacture thereof for their own use. 

It is not the wish of the person who furnishes these nbsenationii to contend with eon- 
fidencc in support of his opiniuu on this occasion ; but he submits it for the consideration 
of others, who are far more competent to judge of matters of this kind than he can be, 
whether, uudicr the supposition that what nas been statetl rcgurding the cotton-wool of 
India should prove to m correct, it would not be incumbi'nt upon the government of the 
country to bring forward some legislative measure for the encouragement of the growth 
of fine cotton-wool in India ; for in the present order of thhigs the United States of 
America appear to be considered as a favoured colony of Great Britain, without having 
apparently any political cUim to such a privilege. 

Here i* sent herewith a small quantity of beautiful East-India cotton-yarn, which was 
brought to Ei^Iand nearly forty years ago ; its sc^ness and strength greatly illustrate 
the nature and quality of Baat-India cotton-wool, which the writer cannot nelp again 
■latiog as, in his opinion, deserving of immediate attention. It is hoped that the very 
hnportant commumcation which ha* now been made will not be either considered intrusive 
or UBbnportant. 



«T« 




324 ACCOUNTS and PAPERS laid bepojle the 



Sir: Sise-lane, August 6tb> 1823, 

In consequence of Mr. Lack having intimated to me^ by your desire, that my paper on 
East-India cotton-wool was not forthcoming at the office for trade, I u6e the ft^etfom to 
send a copy thereof, but as I have distributed all my little stock of fine East-India yahi, 
I cannot supply a sample of what was enclosed in the original paper ; yet if it should be 
wanted it may be got perhaps hereafter. 

Since I last had the honour to address you, I learn that a friend at Calcutta, at my 
desire, has procured a few maunds of Indian cotton-wool, of good quality, which he is to 
get cleaned in two or three mcdes, and which he is to send home for the inspection of the 
manufacturers of tliis country. 

From this friend I also learn that the fine cotton- wool of Bengal has« for a year or two 
back, been bought up, and passed into the interior, but whether it is held upon specula- 
tion, or goes out of tne East-India Company's territory towards China, is not known ; 
this point, and every other fact connected with this, in my humble opinion, important 
subject, should be nunutely Investigated, as alike interesting* to the East-India Comp&ny, 
and the nation at large. 

I have the honour to be, &c. 
To the Right Honourable (Signed) James Dunsbiurk. 

William Huskisson, 
Board of Trade, Whitehall. 



MEMORANDA on the Cotton- Wool used in the Fabrics made in Great Britain. 

According to the opinion of the best modern botanists there are only three species of 
the true Gossypium or cotton-plant ; one, the Arboreum, or tree, the produce wnereof is 
used for beds, couches, &c. but not in fabrics. The remaining two, the Herbaceum and 
Biennial plant or plants (for it is disputed whether there are several q)ecie8, or only one of 
this last), are the plants which yield the cotton- wool used in fabrics. The former is an 
annual herbaceous plant, which is cultivated all over the East, and has extended from 
thence down both shores of the Mediterranean, and is abo grown in the interior of Africa. 
The latter is a shrub which lasts several years, and is cultivated in the Archipelago of 
India, the Island of Bourbon, in both Americas, and the West-Indies. The former is 
not so productive as the Biennial plant; is short stapled ; very difficult to clean from the 
seeds adhering closely to the cotton, and to spin, from the shortness of the staple; yet 
it is from this species of cotton-wool that the natives of India have supplied the world 
with the most beautiful fabrics from time immemorial, and which the manufacturers of 
this country consider not s^ood. The other it is well known furnishes the chief supply 
for the use of the manufacturers of this country, and is very largely cultivated in the 
United States, where it has not been grown much above forty years, and is not indige- 
nous to the soil ; in fact it is cultivated as an annual, from its pensning in the winter months 
from their severity ; so that what the continental manufacturers of India ((rom whence 
all the tine fabrics of the Eiast have come), reject when cultivated in the finest soil and 
climate in the world, is considered by our manufacturers as much superior when produced 
in a humid atmoiphere and unnatural climate to that which the native manufacturers of 
India use ; and wnat renders the present state of this most important and extensive manu- 
facture peculiarly odd, is, that we have been for the last twenty years using both des- 
criptions, without having found out that they differed essentially in their nature from 
<*ach other. 

There 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 98^ 

There can be no doubt of the produce of the Herbaceum from the Levant havin*^ been 
used in this country in the infancy of our cotton manufacture, but of an inferior quality 
to that of India ; and it mast be apparent to any reflecting person, that the preservation 
of this beautiful manufacture to the interesting population of British India for so great 
a length of time,* could not have arisen from any other cause than that the material used * 3,000 yea 
was superior to all others, and (as was before observed) that the finest tropical soil and record, 
climate in the world gave it that advantage. 

It is alleged, and believed to be true, that nearly double the quantity of India cotton- 
wool is exported aimually from Great Britain to the Continent of Europe than what is 
consumed by the British manufacturers ; and of the cotton thus exported, about one-half 
is shipped to the Netherlands, and a great portion thereof reaches Schaafhausen, and is 
manufactured in that neighbourhood ; and it is confidently contended by various parties, 
both in this country and on the Continent, that the faorics of tlie Swiss are of better 
quality, and approach nearer to those of Bengal, than any which are made in Europe. 

It admits of no doubt that large supplies of cotton- yarn, made of American cotton- 
wool, have been for some time sent to India ; and that the shipments are rapidly augment- 
ing. This is a great evil, as the fabrics of India must in a very short period of tmie, if 
measures are not taken to counteract it, become as inferior as British, and the conse- 
quences to this empire and to India, must prove extremely ruinous and disastrous. 

The sample of beautiful India cotton-yarn herewith sent, spun upon the distaff and a 
crooked wire, with a lump of clay attached to it as a spindle, has been upwards of forty 
years in this country, ana fully possesses all its original good qualities. 

A^ B. — The coarse yarns in India are spun upon a small wheel in the same mode as 
the worsted-yams are made in the North of England and Scotland, upcn a larger wheel, 
and which process has great analogy to the manner the frames move in the spinning-niill<( 
of this country. 



Office of Committee of Privy Council for Trade, 
Sm: Whitehall, 18th August 1S23. 

The Lords of Uie Committee of Privy Council for Trade having had under their con- 
sideration some obser>'ations relative to the imperfect manner in which East-India cotton- 
wool is prepared for the British market, which have been communicated to them by Mr. 
James Dunsmure, of Sisc-lane, merchant, I am directed to transmit to you a copy thereof, 
and to request that you will lay the same before the President and Members of the Boanl 
of Control, in order that they may, if they shall see fit, bring this matter under the consi- 
deration of the Directors of the Eeist-India Company. 

I am, &c. 
T. P. Courtenay, Esq. (Signed) Thomas Lack. 

&c. &c. &c. 



Sir: Sise-lane, Slst January 1825. 

Since I last addressed a letter to you regarding the cotton- wool of India, an occurrence 
has taken place which I consider proper to notice for their Lordships* consideration ; and 
would also beg leave to make some further obsen-ations on the same subject, which must 
be my apology for again troubling you. 



«IS6 ' AOOOUNTS and PAPERS Um ttEtoitt tiib : . > 

LaW«|ilJag-adiraotorofthaBast>IiiduCOBpuifi'^owAi*ii^'#eii<UntinilBdiB, find 
wasatoiifr'time tBt«reMcd in tfaa Joaw Mifa i Aiin e ofpeoe-^jDoda thsra, raquestsd >of me Hut 
I <i«Kiltt'addi«M albttertotfaeBoard, ^vmg'ftD outinM of my Tieiis on tfae lUturcBnd 
qmditiesr&f BMt-India wool.- My fbrmer eotnmunicatioiH (loia ytmn ago) wem Boade (o 
nfViend wbon ehainnan aad deputy, bst were considered in somi dfigsce oflicial. 

To rtiis request I consented, bnt rather reluctaniiy, for reasons whit-h it is not necessary 
to mention. The result was, that my letter was read at the Board, and rprerrcd to a Cnm* 
uittee ; but what paised there was not made kno-n n to mc. The director I have alluded 
to assured me he supported ray views ; but frfim a remark made, it might be inferred 
there was an onwillingness in the Committee to atteoipt any change in tJic present state of 
matters, Yrom an impression that the material used at present in our cotton fabrios 
answered the purpose. I hope there may hare been some mistake on my part in rigiitiy 
comprehending what was meant to be conveyed by the last observations ; for 1 cannot 
for a moment suppose that nich an opinion could well exist in that quarter after any delU 
beratbn or reflection. 

My first impression on this interesting subject remains unaltered j to me it appears im- 
possible that I can be wrong. It is established beyond all doubt, that the plants essen- 
-ti^ly differ on which the cotton-wools of India and of America grow. The rich alluvial 
soil with which the greater portion of Britit^ India is periodically refreshened from the 
Hymmelab and other mountainous districts, as well as the dryness of its atmosphere, 
render it the finest couatry in the world for tlie cultivation of all descriptions of tropical 
products. Both South and North America, on the other hand, have very humid atmos- 
, pheres, arisino; naturally from their shores on either side being washed by immense oceans. 
The cotton-plant which is cultivated in these Continents grows also in India, but its nro- 
I duce is held by the natives to be inferior in quality to theirs ;* and the antiquity of their 

ineHerbaceum. cotton manufacture can leave no doubt of their judgment being right on this point. But 
what most surprizes me b, that this country, and particularly the spinners and manufac- 
turers, should not have diBcovered that the cotton-wool which grows in the United States, 
and from which our chief supply is derived, cannot he of equal quality with that which is 
grown in countries where the plant is indigenous ; and it seems still more extraordinary, 
that coiisfdering the manufacturers have now, for a good many years, been using in part 
India cotton-wool, should not have discovered that its quality was both distinct and 
superior to that which they had preriously been confined to the sole use of. 

At times various measures have been afloat in my mind for correctisg what 'aj>pears to 
me: a hideous calamity to the country ; but none, I consider, could bemadeAfTectual with- 
out a leigislative enactment. The manufacturers have no riews beymd immediate gain. 
They in general want no change in the material, because it would occasion a heavy outlay 
in new machinery ; and they nnd the material at present in use, as was observed before, 
answer their purpose. 

Without perhaps, having sufficiently looked at consequences, and reSectcd on difficulties 
which may occur, but after having given the subject all the consideration which 1 am capa- 
ble of doing, and keeping in riew the safety of the state, and its general interests, asd 
also the well-being of that immense and interesting population, the.naitiTes of India, I 
hesitate not to state, that to permit the cotton manufactures of India to come to this 
country nearly on the same terms as those on which British fabrics go to that country, 
would De a judicious measure. It would draw forth the best exertion of the manufacturers 
of this country to imitate the fine muslins of India, which they could not do without 
vmag thnr fine cotton- wod. There would be a competiticn also in the coarsest descrip- 
tions of calicoes, for those of India have more suba^ca ; and to equal them the British 
manufacturers would require to use India wool. 

No doubt there would he a great clamour amongst the manufacturers, but with what 
justice 7 India has the greatest cause to complain. Thb country has established an 

extensive 



SELECT €OMMITT££ 4» tub HOUSE OF COMMONS, mt 

extensive maimftuBtoiy williD the last S&f yeus^, witb bad naleriids^ to the destiueliQii of 
India, and wkb doubtful adumatagv to itsetf, but evidently.greatly to the benefit of otW 
states, who haye no great claim dieieto. If the ma&uiacturerv. were to.take an enJaraied 
view of thesiibject I am satisfied they would see it gieatly to their adFantace thateu^ a , 
measure as I have alluded to- ahoiild take pUcai for India would teke off. an immense 
vaiue in cotton fabiyqsi jvhioli ^ caould supply on cheaper tenoas than they could make 
theot^ but only, on .tJbbesupppaitioi^ that we used their cotton- wool, as therdby they would 
be.eoaUed to pay for the^u Such descriptions of fine muslins as they make In India, wd ' 
which we cannot equal, they h^ve a just nght to furnish to us; and it would be lament- 
able if the V w^ to be deprived thereof, or that the skill of those ancient manufacturers 
should l)e lost to the world; nay, the honour of the country appears to me to be in a 
certain de^ee pieced for ita jpreservation. Already it is ascertained they have lost the ~ 
art of makmg certain delicate fabrics, and all their fine descriptions must soon follow^ un« 
less some reUef is granted. 

With reference to sugar, I believe that I am correct in stating, that looking back 
within my recollection* British India did not cultivate more than enough to supply its own 
wants, tf so much; and its extension of the ^wth thereof can easily be traced to its being 
deprived of advantages which it enjoyed in tbrmer times from other products. I cannot 
conclude this ill-digested letter without expressing; a hope that their Lordships will give 
tl^e subject au. early consideration, as being one of important interest to the welfare of th^ 
country. 

I have the honour to be. Sir, 

Your most obedient humbk servant 
Thomas Lack, Esq., &c. &c. &c. Jas. DuNSHuaE» 

Board of Trade. 



Sm I Sise Lane, 15th December 1825. 



It was not my intention to have again intruded with any further observations of mine 
regarding the cotton-wool of Indiii for the information of my Lords of the Connnittee of- 
Trade, as I had stated pretty fully what my notions were in various conmiuBioations to you'- 
formerly, although in a very defective way ; but a cireimistance came aoddently to my-' 
knowledge last week, which I think points out forcibly the growing evfl arising out of the 

E resent state of the cotton manufactures of this country, and wnieh altogedier, in my 
umble opinion, originated tbeerror n ^g uf diug thematenal used. 

In accidently passing the warehouse of a friend who acts as agent for the Lancashire 
manufacturers, I noticed, independent of a great number of padutges of pieee*goods, 
which might in value be about £10,000, a good maxof heavy bales, which in number 
were about 50 ; and on inquiry of my friend, he told me they contained fine cotton-yam, 
which would accompany the other packages to India, and were made from Sea Island 
(Georgia) cotton- wool. He (knowing.my opinion regarding India cottcn- wool) lamented, 
he said, the circumstances, but he was only an agent or middle-man. I had not gone 
from Ids warehouse 100 yards when I met another friend, who I knew was a shipper to 
India of British cotton piece-goods, and mentioning the circumstance which I have just 
alliidedto, he told metithattMyamwas for hhn, ud also that there were considerable 
8ipplie9>of ootton^yani eail ia tlm same.difeeliQQ hf. othersj and which were duefly dis- 
posed of in the Eastern Archipelago, and to a greater extent than that of Bengal, or from. 
th» CotmU iHe furtb^ gaeBtjonedy th^ qonsidexable a^pplies of British yam were sent to 
Bombay ; but y^here U was,maiiu&cturQ4 into cloth he cculd Apt inform me. 

I confess 



528 ACCOUNTS amd P4JP£RS laid Buroas the 

1 confess when one reflects upon the present siogular and unnatural atate uf the cottoo- 
ivool supplies for the use of our manufacturera, and the extraordinary revolution which 
has taken place in the growth and manufacture in my time, this does not surprize me ; 
nay, it has only been my aatooishmeat that it did not take place at a much earlier date. 

It must be apparent to persons of the most ordinary understanding, that ere long those 
beautiful fabrics made hitnerto in India, which have bees the admiration of all nations 
from the remotest period of time, must be lost to the world for ever ; and that the 
cotton cloth and muslins made in India must become as inferior as British, unless some 
measures are resorted to which are commensurate to the evil. 

To me it appears the simple points to be considered, are, whether there is not an 
essential dilTerence in the nature and qualities of India and American cotton-wool, and if 
there is, which is the best; and if the Indian is better than that of America, what 
measures can be taken to induce the manufacturers of this country to use it in preference. 

It is certain that India fabrics are made from cotton wool, the growth of that country, 
and taken chiefly, if not altogether, from the produce of the hertoceum. That the bien- 
nial plant of America is indigenous to India, Out that the ancient manufacturers of that 
couutry do not consider its produce good, otherwise from its being more productive, 
longer stapled, and easier cleaned, would have been generally used by them. That the 
cotton-wool of America is altogether the produce of the biennial plant, and as respects 
the chief supply for our manufacturers, cultivated in a humid atmosphere, and ia a 
climate where nature never intended it should grow. 

Taking the preceding facts as true, there cannot exist a doubt of the cause of India 
fabrics surpassing all outers in the material, for it is ascertained neither the spinning or 
weaving could occasion it. 

To the close resemblance which the two descriptions of cotton-wool bear to each 
other (pcrhapa nearer than almost Uie fruit of any other two apedea of plant), may be 
imputed the error of the manufacturers of this country not having discovered the distine- 
tiun in their qualities, and why a consequent atteitqit has not been made to bring it into 
geucnd use in British fabrics. 

If tlie cotton wool of the herbaceous plant is better than all others, and ^tish India 
furnishes it of a finer description and on easier terms than any other country, poaitious 
for which I contend, then the present state of matters is fraught with the greatest 
possible calamity to this countrv and to its Indian possessiooc ; but on the other hand, 
could my views be realized, tlien we must have tne entire manufacture of the cotton 
goods of a fine quality for the whole world so long as India is attached to this eoustry, 
and our present maritime superiority is maintained. 

I am respectfully. Sir, your most obedient servant, 
Siie Lane -i James Dunihobb. 



15lh December 1825. 



Thomas Lack, Esq. &c. &c. See. 
Board of Trade. 



Sir : Site Lane, 30lh Juwuy 182& 

Agreeably to the promise I made when you lately favoured me with aa intarriew, I 
now send you samples of a few bales « East-India cottOD-wool, just landed from 
Bengal. 

By directions which I sent to India, this cotton-wool has been cleaned by the nativrs 
in different ways ; atid it is my intention to submit the wool in the different statae to tile 

trial 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 999 

trial and inspection of the maimfacturcre, in order to obtain the best ami surest informa- 
tion to direct as to the state in which it is most suitable to the spinners in Europe. 

I did expect to have been able to have ascertained the first cost» and all expenses and 
cliarges^ until landed in London, upon this experimental importation ; but on investi- 
gating the matter, I notice the waste of cotton in oleaninj^, in tlie different modes, is not 
stated, which prevents me from giving more for the present than the cost of cleaning in 
each mode^ and the broker*s opinion of the value; but which last 1 do not consider its 
intriasic worth, or what it would fetch, had the manufacturers a correct knowledge of its 
value. 

There is, perhaps, a nearer approach in appearance of the cotton-wool of India and 
America tlian is to be found in any other distinct species of plant ; and to this, in my 
opinion, is to be imputed the almost total ignorance which prevails with respect to the 
nature and quality of this most important article of commerce. Not three years ago Mr. 
Francis Philips, of Manchester, who, with two or three other manufacturers, consume 
more India cotton-wool than all the spinners in Great Britain, assured mo he knew no 
more distinction between the cotton- wool of India and America than what is noticed in 
one apple differing fnmi another. Now as this respectable character is not only well 
acquainted with nis business, but has excellent general information, it may be fairly 
inferred that the manufacturers throughout Lancashire, as well as in Scotland, arc at this 
moment, with a few exceptions, ignorant of the important circunLstance wliich has now 
IxH^n alluded to, and are consequently unable to make any judicious attempts to bring 
the cotton-wool of India into general use. 

That a new country like the United States should be able to seaire to itself^ in a 
period little better than thirty years, so valuable a source of wealthy by the growtli of a 
plant whicli is not only not indigenous to the soil and climate, but which also cannot be 
preserved without being annually renewed, and cultivated too bv unnatural labour, to 
the exclusion of a country where a finer plant and produce is cultivated, and which it is 
on record liad for thirty centuries supplied the whole world with the finest fabrics, 
appears hardly credible ; but I lament to state, the fact can admit of no doubt or 
uncertainty. 

If ai) humble indiridual miglit be permitted to offer an opinion upon the present 
poution of the coinmercal relations between tliis country and the American federal 
guverimieiit, 1 would state tliat, placing into one scale of the balance of the empire the 
profit which it derives from the furnishing a considerable value in manufactures to 
America, it is much more than counterpoised by the advantage which must be put into 
the other scale, from tlie cultivation and carriage of such a large portion of the raw 
material consumed in our manufactures ; and that it tends importantly to weaken the 
riaht arm of this country, and strengthen that of the other. 

Tliere will be annexed some slight observations made by me on the nature of India 
cotton wool, and may not be important ; but it appears to me if science was to be applied 
to the inquiry, the relative nature and quality of Indian and American cotton- wool could 
Ih* very quickly and minutely ascertained by a cliemical aualysb, and which I with great 
deference submit should be resorted to. 

I am, with respect. Sir, your most obedient servant, 

Thomaa Lack, Esq., Jabcbs Dunsmurk. 

&c. &c, &c. 
Board of Trwl*, Great Geoige Straet 



« U SAMPLES 



S80 



ACCOUNTS AMD PAPERS laid bbtobb thb 



SAMPLES of Eight Bales of Fine £ast-It<du Cotton-Wool imported in the 

Marquis of Hastings from Bengal. 



Samples. 




Cost of 
Caeuiing. 


Broken' 

Value. 








d. 


d. 


' { 


Bale, 


rt 1 cleaned by bowing, &c. 


1 

U per lb. 


7 


'■ { 




3l cleaned by beating with 
4 J sticks, &c. . - - . 


1 




X { 




5*1 cleaned by hand- beating, 
6/ &c. 


f 


6* 


4. { 


— 


7l cleaned in the ordinary 
8 J way 


« 


1 



N.B. — The quality of the whol«* of the bales is the same, having been purchased at 
Mirzapore at one price ; but from the weight not being given which the bales now con- 
tain, so as to ascertain the waste in cleaning, and the freight home, and other charses not 
being adjusted, makes it difficult to come at, with accuracy, the cost in London For the 
present. 



Remarks on the Cotton- Wool of India, the produce of the Herbaceous Plant. 

A respectable calico-printer in Scotland states that in former times when he stamped a 
great quantity of East-India calicoes for the Continent he noticed his colours were brighter 
than when he used British fabrics. 

The writer of this, about eighteen months ago, caused a piece of calico to be made 
with great care, composed from yarn made from American and Indian cotton- wool, by 
which one quarter was all American, another aD Indian, a third Indian warp and 
American waft, and the fourth the reverse of the last. This piece of cloth after havine 
been sent up to London for inspection was returned to Lancashire to be bleached, and 
printed by the first printer there ; it was sent up admirably executed, but not the 
slightest shade could he discovered in the colour of the different compartments ; but it 
arose, it is believed, from acid being now universally used in the bleaching of both cotton 
and linen cloths. This piece x>( cloth is now in London, and, if their Lordshipe desire, 
it will bo sent to the Board of Trade for their inspection. The Lancashire mamifacturert 
considered that the piece being of one appearance was £avourable for India wool, but the 
writer expected the part of the cloth made from the India wool would have been superior, 
and would have made a second attempt by e^etting the cloth CTass-bleached ; but as no 
encouragement was given to the inquiry, he declinra being subjected to further expense. 

There 



SELECT COMMITTEE «p ihb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 981 

There can be no doubt the East-India cotton-wool possesses an essential oil, which 
the American has not. There is at the East-India House two samples of cotton-yam^ 
the one from India, and the other American cotton ; they were attached together and 
dipped in an indigo-blue vat. The result was, that the yarn from the Indian cotton was 
a much brifrhter colour than the other. 

The small sample of dyed cotton yarn, (No. 5), was sent in the present month, (Janu- 
ary 1824), from Gibraltar, reauesting that a few tons might be shipped if tlie price did 
not exceed the limits. Hie dealers in yam in London considered it foreign, and to imitate 
it, the dyintr would be 3^. per lb. and tlie cost 1^. 6c/. per lb., but it was sent to a 
manufacturer in Lancasliire for execution, who stated it was his own yam, and dyeing ; 
tliat it was made from Surat cotton, and that it could be supplied at a price not much 
above half what tlie London dealers reckoned. 

The cotton-wool from the herbaceous plant is the only description which can be used 
for making candle-wicks. The Turkey cotton is what is chiefly applied to this purpose, 
but if any other is resorted to, it is that of India. The cotton- wool of the biennial plant 
will not suit, lliere appears to be an elasticity in the herbaceous cotton-wool which 
occasioiLs a cavity in the wick, and thereby the air passes freely tlirough it, and makes it 
bum bright, whicli is the reverse in the cotton- wool from the biennial plant of America, 
us the thread is dense, and the air passes through with difficulty. 

No. 0, is some seed of the Brazil cotton ; it is more of a distinct character than any of 
the other variety of biennial cotton-plants. The seeds adhere to each other, and wnich 
state it presenes when cultivated in the West-Indies or elsewhere. This, it b believed, 
is what the botanists call latifolium, and is commonly called chain or kidney- seeded 
cotton ; it is tliis description whicti it is believed is not cultivated with so much success in 
Egypt. 

There was received along with the cotton-wool from India a small model of the 
machine used by the natives in India for freeing the cotton-wool from the seed* It is now 
with Dr. Wilkins, at the India- House, who states it to be a perfect model, and who has 
promised to make some observations upon it at the request of the wTiter. If their 
Lordships should wish a sight of it, it can be sent up to the Board of Trade. 

No. 7, a sample of beautiful East-India cotton-yam, brought to England forty years 
ago, by Admiral Sir E. Hughes. 

No. 8, seeds of the herbaceum. 



Sise Lane, 3d February 18^. 
Sir: 

I am fearful I shall appear intrusive to my Lords of the Committee of Trade in i^^a 
addressing you for their Lordships* information regarding cotton-wool ; but as the subject 
has much ocoupied mv attention for a good many years ^ck, and is in my estimation of 
great importance to the state, I hope that the frc^om I take will be excused. 

In my last letter, dated in December 1825, I took notice of considerable shipments of 
cotton-jara for India, made from American cotton-wool, then going forward, which 
shipments continue to be made on a more enlarged scale. Up to the 5th October last 
the quantity shipped exceeded 500,000 pounds. The statement to the 5th January knot 
yet made up, but I am CTeatly misinformed if it shall not be found to exceed much the 
proportion for the last three months that of the previous nine. 

It appears, at first view, to be more beneficial to India^ that yam should be sent out 
to them from this country than manufactured cloths ; and if there existed no distinction in 

2U2 the 



888 ACCOUNTS and PAPERS laid BEFcmE the 

the nature and quality of Indian and American cotton wool, and India and British fabrics, 
it would certainly be the better mode, as thereby they would have the advantage of 
wearing their own- fabrics ; and so long as the India fabrics are distinguishable from all 
others, however nnich the manufacture is contracted, there is a ray of hope existing, that 
the British manufacturers will find out their superior quality, and the cause thereof, and 
attempt to imitate thenu 3ut by the system of trade which has now been alluded to, 
there is a progressive advance towards the total extinction of the exquisitely beautiful 
cotton manufactures of India; an event fraught with, in my opinion, most calamitous 
cousequences to that fine country and interesting people, and in other respects not bene- 
ficial to this empire, as I formerly have taken the liberty to notice. 

When in Lancashire a few weeks back, on business, a retired manufacturer was intro- 
duced to me, who wished for some information regarding India cotton-wool. He ad- 
mitted, that until I mentioned it to him he was in total ignorance of there being any 
distinction in the species of plants which yielded Indian and American cotton-wool; 
and he was confident that the manufacturers throughout Lancashire were generally in the 
same uninformed condition. This state of ignorance ought not in my opinion to be 
allowed to exist longer. 

It has been represented to me in various quarters that the Swiss make cotton cloths 
that approach nearer to those of Bengal than any other manufacturing country in Europe; 
and that the manufacturers of both Lancashire and Glasgow have declared they cannot 
furnish them of equal quality. I have of late noticed the export of India cotton- wool to 
the continent. The official report of last year is not yet made up, but from a printed 
statement which I have seen, and which I believe may be relied upon, made up to the 
30th November, say for eleven months, the quantity of Indian cotton- wool exported is 
stated to have been 40,690 bales ; and that used in the same period for home consump- 
tion 25,941 bales ; so that the manufacturers on the continent use nearly twice the quan- 
tity of Indian cotton-wool that is consumed in Great Britain. 

I have no statement of the countries to which the cotton-wool now alluded to was sent 
for last year, but on referring to the Inspector- General's Report for the four preceding 
years on this head, I noticed the Netherlands take off about a half or the whole in each 
year, and I am assured a ^at portion of it reaches Schaffhausen, and is manufactured 
in that neighbourhood. This I consider a matter of the last importance to have accu- 
rately ascertained ; as if the superior quality of the Swiss fabrics arises from their using 
India cotton- wool, the whole difiiculty is solved, and I beg with great deference to repre- 
sent that this point seems of such vital importance to have well established, that, it 
appear^ to me, a skilful person who can be relied upon should be employed to visit 
Switzerland for that object. 

The first impression on my mind rerarding the superiority of India fabrics, (and which 
has been my chief reliance wnen assailed by very considerable opposition to my views on 
this subject), was, that nature not art occasioned their chief superiority over all others. 
Had it arisen from the latter, it is not possible that the natives of India could have kept 
the exclusive possession of that manufacture for a period exceeding the earliest profane 
history to this time. In fact, in fewer centuries than it has been mousands of years in 
their possession, it must have passed from them to other countries, and it would be 
painful in the extreme, as I have on a former occasion us^ the freedom to mention, if 
thst immease and interesting people were to be deprived of their legitimate manufacture 
Jby the introduction of one of a spurious description, and fraught with much calamity to 
Kitish India and this country. 

I am respectfully, Sir, your most obedient s^rant, 

Thomas Lack, Esq. Jaubs Dunsmubb. 

&o. &c. &c. 

Office 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. SS9 



Office of Committee of Privy Council for Trade, 
Sir : WhitehaU, 2Gth July, 1K28. 

The attention of this Committee has lately been called to the possibility of improving 
the culture, in the Bast Indiefl, of some articles which are now chiefly supplied by the 
United States of America particularly of cotton and tobacco. 

It lias been represented to their Lordships that the cotton of Iixlia is inferior to that of 
Carolina, not through any infmority of the soil in which it is grown, but tlirough a defec- 
tive mode of cultivation, and it is thought that this deficiency might be supplied by a 
judicious application of skill and capital. 

Tho same representation is made as to tobacco. 

A slight encouragement is about to beextendexl to tliecotton of India by the reduction 
of the import-duty upon cotton-wool from six per cent, on the value to 4a. per cwt. ; but 
if the Lords of this Committee are rightly informed, this encouragement will not be suffi- 
cient to (xx^asion the necessar}' improvement of the cotton, unless measures be taken in 
Iiulia for applying skill and capital to the cultivation. 

Tile peculiar system of administration which the Legislature has sanctioned for British 
India, forbidding Europeans to settle in the country, prevents the operation of the encou- 
ragement, ordinarily afforded by an extensive market and a favourable tariff. But my 
Lords conceive tliat it may be quite consistent with the maintenance of that system to 
extend facilities, liberal in their character, but limited in their extent, to British subjects 
wlio may be disposed to setde in the cotton districts, and whose character, property and 
knowledi^e qualify them for the object required. 

llieir Lordships apprehend that the important article of indigo has flourished umler 
encouragement of this nature. 

Under these impressions the Lords of this Committee direct me to request that you 
will move the Commissioners for the affairs of India to take these suggestions, as tney 
regard both cotton and tobacco, into their consideration, and to communicate thereupon 
witli the East-India Company. 

Tlie Court of Directors cannot fail to admit the importance of the object ; and it is 
hoped, that if they should not consider the suggestions of this Committee as pointing out 
the most advisable method, they will suggest some other mode of obtaining it. 

I am to add, that their Lordships are desirous of receiving the fullest information which 
the Commissioners may be able to afford them, of the present state of the culture and 
trade of cotton and tobacco in the Elast-Indies. 

1 am. Sir, &c. &c. 

George Bankes, Esq. (Signed) Thomas Lack. 

&c. &c. &c. 



Sir : No. 4, Pancraa-lane, 6th September, 1828. 

In consequence of the privilege you rave me to address vou in the event of noy having 
any thing further to offer for the consideration of their Loroahips, rdative to India cotton- 
wool, I am induced to trouble you with a few obsenratioiit on this important subject, 
which I shall endeavour to make as concise as possible. 

I do not know whether it is ooneeded that India cotton-wool is not only good, but is the 
best description which is produced from the HoriMceous plant,' and tlutt the produce of 



884 ACCOUNTS avd PAPERS laid befOse the 

this species is superior, and essentially differs in quality from that of the Shrub plant, 
which is alone cultivated in the Western world ; but however this may be, I must take 
leave to state that this is my conviction, and has formed the chief feature in all my com-' 
munications on thiis subject. . 

Under the impression that what I have now stated is admitted and assented to, it appears 
to me, to bring itito general use by the manufacturers of this country the cotton-wool of 
India, in place of the present unhappy supply, is that which should occupy the considera- 
tion of my Lords of the Committee of Trade ; and although the measure may be attended 
with considerable difficulty, I have no hesitation in stating, that with judicious arrange- 
otients, and a cordial co-opemtion by those whose immediate duty it is to give their aid 
therein, it may be brought about in a progressive manner. 

As the manufacturers of cotton-wool in this countrvj however high their reputation 
may be for knowledge, have given very unequivocal proof that they are not well acquainted 
with the nature and qualities of the materials they use, I would recommend that an able 
and respectable botanist be employed to write a short and plain essay on the nature and 
qualities of the different species of cotton-plants which yield cotton-wools used in making 
fabrics, are cultivated, and that it should be issued amongst the manufacturing districts at 
a moderate price. 

It appears to me also, that it would be highly expedient that the duty charg^ed in the 
interior of India on cotton- wool by the East-India Company, which I am tola is seven 
and a half per cent, ad valorem, should be wholly drawn back on exportation to Great 
Britain. At present I believe only 5 per cent, is allowed ; and whatever drawback b 
allowed by the East-India Company should be levied on exportation from Great Britain, 
that the full advantage thereof may be secured to the country. 

I would presume also to recommend again that India cotton fabrics be admitted into 
Great Britain upon the same duty (two and a half per cent.) that British are subject to 
when imported into India, as was stated in one of my former communications, when I 
ittged a remission of the duty on the raw material. 

But I would with great deference represent, that to procure as quickly as possible relief 
from this, as it appears to me, a great national calamity, the united exertions of the East- 
India Company and the private traders connected with India, with the Government of the 
country, is imperatively called for; and I have not a doubt, were such a desirable com- 
muaica^on instituted, a plan would be speedily devised for a prompt check being given to 
the present lamented state of matters, which, if not soon counteracted, will lead to the 
mcBt disastrtous results. 



I have the honour, &c. &c. 
Thomad Lack, Esq. (Signed) Jas. Dunsvure. 

Board of Trade. 



SiRi India Board, 16th October 182». 

In reference to your letter of the 26th of July last, I have received the directions of the 
Con«is3iaB(9ii».far the Affiaics of ladia to transmit to you, for the information of the 
Lords of the Committee for Trade, the enclosed copy of a letter^ which has been 
addressed by the President of this Board to the chairman and deputy chairman of 
Qie East-Inma Company, on the subject of the culture of cotton and tooacco in the East- 
Indies. 

I am, &c. 

Thomas Lack, Esq. (Signed) G. Bankbs. 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 985 



Gentlemkn : India Boards 7th October, 1828. 

I have con»iderod with much attention the letter of Mr. Dart to Mr. Baiikes, dated 
the 5th ultimo, rospoctinjj the culture of cotton and tobacco in the East-Indies. 

I know you must be strongly impressed with a sense of the great iniportanco of 
improving the cotton |?ro\vn in the East-Indies, of extending thereby tlie export trade of 
tlie t(*rritories of tlie bast-India Company, and of rendering this country indc{)endent of 
foreign nations for the raw material of one most considerable manufacture ; and I am 
therefore satisfied that you will fr'iyc your favourable consideration to the suggBStions I am 
about to offer to you on this subject. 

It appears, undoubtedly » tliat measures liave been taken at different tinu's by the 
Elast-India (Company, for introducing into India the culture of various sorts of foreign 
cotton ; and it seems that on one occcision a gentleman conversant with the cleaning of 
cotton in Georgia, was engaged by the East-India Company for tlie purpose of giving 
instructions in tlie use of the American machines for separatnig the wool of the cotton from 
its seeds, but that the attempts hitherto made for the improvement of the culture and 
niana^^mient of cotton liave not been successful. 

It dnes not appear, however, that experiments have been made in many different parts 
of India, for the purpose of ascertaming whetlier, in some districts of that vast country, in 
which the cotton-plant is indigenous, it may not be possible to raise some of the superior 
sorts of foreign cotton. Experiments made in the botanical garden of Calcutta, where 
cotton-plants from different soils and climates are cultivated in the same soil, and in the 
same climate, must necessarily be productive of no satisfactory result. 

1 must therefore suggest to you the expediency of attemi)ting, on a small scale, the 
cultivation of sJl the fnier sorts of foreign cotton in different and distant parts of India, 
under every ditFerent circumstance of soil and climate, and of transmitting to England, 
cleaned in the American manner, and with every precaution to protect them from the 
weather, samples of the cotton so raised, for the purpose of comparison with the cottons 
of other countries. 

As it is understoixl that the value of cotton depends very much upon tlie care with 
whidi it is cleaned, and on its being protected from the weather, it is deserving of your 
consideration whether it may not be advisable for the East-India Company to receive a 
portion of the land-tax in cotton, at a fair valuation, and to manage, on its own 
account, tlie cleaning of the cotton so raised, and its transport to the place of 
shipment. 

Should it be found practicable to rai^ in India any of the superior sorts of cotton, it 
would be for the interest of the East-India ("ompauy to encourage the culture of such 
cotton, by taking it at a higher valuation in the payment of the land-tax. 

I cannot entertain a doubt of the disposition of the East-India Company to permit the 
residence ui the interior of India of British merdiants, who may be willing to employ their 
knowledge and their capital in the culture of an article, of which the production, in any 
quantity, of a superior quality, would conduce in so great a degree to the interests not 
only of the East-India Company, but of this country. 

I trust that you will persevere in your endeavours to produce a species of tobacco miitable 
to the British market. 

I have the honour to be, &c. 
He Chairman and Deputy Chairman (Signed) Eli£NBOROuoh. 

of the East-India Company. 






336 



ACCOUNTS AND PAPERS. &c. &c. 



No. 35, — An Account of the Quantity and Value of Military Storbs exported to 
India in the Year 1829-30 ; specifying the Average Rate o( Freight per Tun at which 
they have been sent out, (from May to May.) 

d Report on Eublndia 



Accoutrements, trie. 

Bayonet Belts 

Pouch . ditto 

Waiit . ditto 

Sword . ditto 

Various other ditto 

Sword Knot* 

Lock CaKB 

Sabre- taches 

Musket and Fusil Slings 

Drum and Fife Case cRtto 

Canteen and Knapsack, Ac. ditto 

Pouches 

Powder Horns and Flaikt 

Carbine Buckets 

Rstol Froi 
Cavalry Saddles and Bridles 
Artillery Harness 
Fone Bellowi 
Bocws, Parchment, Sk, 
Canvas 
Vitry 
Bun tin 

Rope 

Coals 

Fire-Bricks, Cement, &c. 

Lead, Sheet-Lead, lie 

Mathemarical and Musical Instruments, Ac &e. 

iManutactured Copper and Brass Article* 

Copper Gunpowder Barrels 

Copper Sheets, Hoops, &-c. 

Oilmen's Stores, Painters' Coloun. Sulphur, Ac. 

Muskets, Fusils, Carbines, Rifles, I^tola, &c. 

Swordt and Pikes . . . . . . ditto 

Small-Arm Materials, Musket Furniture, Ac. .. Cases, Ac. 

Shot and Shells, Carcasses, Sec . . Tons 

Iron and Brass Guns, Carronades, Iron Mortars, and Beds Number 
Oun Carriage Iron-work,Ironniongeiy,BTazieTy,'rinware,&c.FBduiges 

Iron Tons 

Glass Cases, &c. 

Woollens, Stuffs, &c Cieoes 

Soldiers' Chiihing Cms, Ac. 



Average Rate of Freight per Ton 

m. — This Account does not include Ae Exports lo S 
(Enors excepted.) 
•e. I THO& a. IXOTD. 



East 'India House, 
14th March 




MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 

12Jii/y eOdoier, 18S1. 




II 



MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. 



.Vartisy 12" dieJulii 1831. 



Sir Jaues JVIacdonald, Bart, in the Chair. 




Captain THOMAS BLAIR called in, and examined. 

355X. Are you in the Company's naval service ? — I am. IJ July 

^52. What ship did you command F— The William Fairlie. 

2553. Were you in Canton between November and December 1830? — C^V*«"2 
Yes, I was. 

^54. Did you arrive with the fleet at Whampoa? — We arrived in China, 
1 think, on the 4th of August; my ship was detained at Hong Kong Bay 
until the arrival of the fleet, and we went up in divisions; I was the third 
arrival in China. 

Q55S. Did tlie fleet go up as usual to the place of anchoring at Whampoa, 
or did they wait at Macao for any time ?— I arrived on the 4th of August, 
and received orders from the Select Committee to proceed to Hong Kong Bay, 
stating as a reason, that the unhealthiness that prevailed in China at that 
season had induced them to keep the ships outside for a period, and I 
remained at Hong Kong Bay for about six weeks. 

2556. Had you ever been at Canton before ? — Frequently. 

2557. Had you ever arrived during that month ?— Yes. 

^58. Were you ever ordered before to go to Hong Kong Bay r— No j we 
always proceeded into the river, as soon as we got our pilot, to the anchorage 
at Whampoa. 

3559. Were you the first ship that was ordered to go to this bay r — There 
were two ships before me, the Duchess of Athol and the Thomas Coutts that 
had arrived about a fortoight before me. 

2560. Who was the senior officer of the three?— Captain Daniel, of the 
Duchess of Ath(^ 

2561* Did you see the orders he received ? — I had a letter from the Com- 
■ittee^ vhicb was in the same words as the order to him. 

. fXS 256«.Wh«t 



240' EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

I2Ju]yi8SI. 2563. What other ships joined you? — I think there were six or seven 
T"" . others arrived at various perioJs. 

'2563. How many had collected at that bay before you received orders lo 
proceed to Whampoa ? — As nearly as I can recollect I should think ten sail, 
and several others arrived at Lintin, which is the usual place of entering the 
river before we get pilots ; but the Committee having come to the resolution 
of allowing the ships to go up, those ships were detained at Lintin, making 
altogether, with those which had previously arrived, sixteen or eighteen 
ships, till we who had first arrived had proceeded up the river. 

2564. Upon what day in September did you receive orders to proceetl to 
Whampoa? — I think the order we got was nn the 14th of September, and 1 
arrived on the morning of the 17th at Whampoa. 

2565. Dili all the ships go up? — The three first went, the others were 
desired not to leave till we three, who had been the first arrived, should pro- 
ceed. I believe the reason that was given was that if the whole fleet went up 
together there might be confusion. 

2566. Were any of the country ships directed to go to Lintin ?. — No, only 
the Company's regular ships. 

2567. You know no other reason why you were directed to remain there, 
excepting the alleged sick state of Canton ? — That was the only reason. We. 
the three captains, wrote a letter, requesting permission, in consequence of 
our own private investments, to proceed to Whampoa ; it was stated, in coo- 
sequence of the unhealthiness, that they had come to the resolntion not to 
allow the ships to go up so soon, regretting they could not grant our 
request. 

2568. How long did you remain at Whampoa? — I think I sailed for Eng- 
land on the 15th or l6th of November ; I was one of the first despatched of 
the season ; none of the Company's ships ever sail before that period. 

2569. During the time you remained there, were you directed to send an 
armed boat with armed men up to Canton? — Yes, I was desired to send a 
boat, and I think six men, an officer, and a midshipman. 

2570. Did the orders come to you, or through the senior officer ?— The 
order I think came to myself; it is generally addressed to the commander of 
the ship. I think I must have been at Canton at the time I received the 
order. 

2571. Who was the senior officer of the fleet ?— Captain Innes* of the 
Abercrombie Robinson. 

25/2. What were the orders you received 7^1 forget how it was lUted; 
but to send a small boat with six men, with musketi, bayoneti, &c. and 11 
certain quantity of ammunition, and aa officer and midahipman to remaia 
in the Company's factory. 

3573, Did every ship in the fleet receive tbc aarae order 7^— Yea. 




SELECT COMMirrEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 241 • 

2574. How many men proceeded then to Canton ? — I should think at one 12 July I 
time there were about 140 men, 

2575. Did they receive orders to leave the ship at night, and be up before ^'^ '"" 
daylight at Canton ? — Some threat of the Chinese, I believe, in the early part 

of the day, to the members of the factory, had induced them to send down 
a boat as soon as possible, but in consequence of the time that elapsed in 
getting there, I believe the men could not get away till nearly midnight, 
and they were all in the factory the next morning ; such boats crews as 
were in Canton taking up the officers and captains, and so on, were detained 
and armed, and kept in the factory till the arrival of those boats that were 
ordered. 

2576. Where did those crews who were at Canton at the time the order 
was issued receive arms ? — I believe there are some arms in the Company's 
factory. 

2577. Were not your men also armed with cutlasses and pistols? — Yes. 

2578. In fact, completely armed ? — Yes. 

2579. Were there any carronades ? — There were two 32-pound cat ronades 
from the commodore's ship, with ammunition. 

2.580. Do you recollect the date of their arrival there ? — I forget the date. 

258L How long did they remain at the factory ? — Three weeks or a 
month. 

2582. On the arrival, who took charge of those 140 men ? — ^To every six 
there was an officer of one of the ships, and a midshipman ; but there 
was generally appointed a captain of the day, and a captain at night, and after 
a little time one of the captains was constantly upon that service, and had 
charge of the men, and seeing after the provisions, &c. 

2583. Were they exercised in the factory ?— They were, they never went 
out of the factory. 

2584. Do you recollect where the guns were drawn up ? — Just inside the 
gate ; there was no force whatever outside the gate. 

2585. They could not be seen except the gates were opened ?— Not ex- 
cept the gates were open ; they might be seen on passing the gate. 

8586. Do you know the cause of that dispute ? — I believe there were several 
reasons stated ; one was the arrival of ladies in the factory, and another the 
demand for those Parsees who were charged with the murder of Captain 
Mackenzie. 

2587* You have mentioned that it had been stated Whampoa was unhealthy ; 
did you on your coming up find that any peculiar prevalent disease had ex* 
isted there ?— No ; not more than upon other occasions. 

2588. Then of your own knowledge the season was not particularly un* 
healthy ?— No ; there was a kind of epidemic ; there were a great number of 

men 



Captai' T. Dla!r. 



242' EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

la July isdi. men in the various ships sickly, but it was very slight, and in a few days the 
men were at their duty again. 

2589. Was it any thing more than is very often the case in China, when a 
disease of that kind is general ? — No. 

2590. Do not you know that the principal cause of that dispute was the 
residence of Mrs. Baynes^ the wife of the chief of the factory, at Canton ? — I 
believe that was considered one of the principal reasons. 

2591. Do you not know that one of the Hong merchants called at Mr> 
Baynes*. and informed him that the governor of Canton was extremely 
desirous that the English lady should be removed r — I believe there were 
several communications requesting the English lady to remove.. 

2592' Were you in the habit of reading the Canton Register, when you 
were there ? — Sometimes. 

"2503. Do you recollect seeing an account of the proceedings in the Canton 
Register ? — There was a placard hung out at the Factory in consequence of 
the threat of the Chinese government of seizing the persons of British sub- 
jects, that they would find protection in the British Factory, where there 
was an armed force for the protection of British subjects. 

2594. Do you refer to this passage, " We, the President and Select Com- 
mittee, do hereby give public notice to all British rtrsidents in Canton, that in 
consequence of a threat of the Chinese government to send an armed force 
to the Factory, with the avowed purpose of seizing British subjects, a body 
of seamen will be retained in the Company's Factories for the protection of 
nil British subjects who may feel desirous to resort to them : signed William 
Baynes, Charles Millett* J. Bannerman, J. N. Daniell, Canton, 20th October, 
18^0?" — That is the notice I referred to. 

*^595. Were you present at the remonstrance from the Select Committee 
being presented at Canton? — I went to the city gate. 

2590. Do you recollect the date at which that occurred ?— I do not recol- 
lect i I should think in the early part of September, or the middle of 
September. 

2597- Do you recollect whilst you were there, about the Slat of Sep- 
tember, seeing a proclamation posted up by the Chinese government In the 
different streets leading to the foreign lactones?— I have heard frequently 
of placards in the Chinese language stuck up in various parts of Canton, 
vilifying the English Factory and the Knglish residents, but the nature of 
those placards 1 am not able to state, but they were considered very 
oHensive, and they were one of those things which caused the deputation to 
be sent to the city gate, to remonstrate against it. 

25<)S. Were you one of the parties that made that Tcmonstnuice?— I WM 
at the time of the remonstrance from the British Factory. There was alio 
one from the British merchants, and another from the Dutch and Europeai 
generally, but each for themselves presented their owd 




SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 243' 

«599. What took place ?— One of the gentlemen of the Factory, 1 think ISJulylsSi. 
Mr. Lindsay, presented the petition ; there was a little show of resistance at .~~7 

fitat, to prevent our gotnj; in, but upon forcing our entrance rapidly, we got ^-^P'""' '■ ^^ 
in, and the guards or troops ranged themselves on each side, and we 
remained there till a Mandarin of some rank arrived, who was the military 
officer of the city. 

2600. Were you within the inner gate when the remonstrance was 
delivered to the Mandarin? — No; between the two gates, and after the 
delivery, we walked quietly off. 

2601. Did any thing pass before your delivering the papers ?•— Delivering 
them and explaining the various petitions, who they were from. 

S603. Was this before or afler the armed force had been ordered up to 
Canton ? — It was long previous. 

S603. Then you do not know what was the real cause of the force being 
ordered up, except that you heard there was a threat ?— No. 

2(j04. Were yon on duty at any time during the time you were there ? — 
It came to my turn, the day or me night-guard, once or twice ; there was 
always a captain of the guard; there were sentries in various parts of the 
interior of the Factory, and over the guns, and so on ; and there was a 
warehouse, or a barrack. 

260J. Had you more guns than the two you brought up ? — There were 
only two large carronades, and three or four brass guns from the Company's 
cutter. 

2606. What orders had you ? — The orders sent were to acquaint the chief 
if there was any appearance or likelihood of disturbance, and to prevent all 
Chinese, who had no business there, from coming into the Factory. 

2607. Did Mrs. Baynes remain all this time in the Factory? — She did. 

2608. You had an opportunity of seeing her of course? — ^Yesj she 
occasionally went out in the afternoon on the water. 

2609. Did any deputation of tlie Mandarins come to the Factory during 
the time you were there? — I think the Hong merchants frequently came ; I 
am not aware that there were any of the authorities amongst them. 

2610. Did you stay there all the time that Mrs. Baynes stayed, or did you 
leave Mrs. Baynes there r — I lefl her there ; but the force was withdrawn, I 
think, when I went down to join the ship just about being dispatched ; the 
guat had arrived on board the Abercrombie Robinson, and the force was 
withdrawn upon the assurance that there should be no molestation if that 
took place. 

2611. At what date did you leave Canton ?— I think about the 13th or 
^athofNovflqiber. 

4012. WveyoupreMVtt upon of October, when the answer of the 

vemment of CHitoD.«u receiv by the Supercaigoes ?— I cannot say. 

2613. Do 




QW EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFffAlES: 

i^Jtilv IBS). S613. Do you Tt>c(^lect seeing an answer from the gOTerameBt. stating 
— ^ the law of Chilis respecting the residence of women 5 and that at difSereat 

Cafttnin T. liim'r. penodi before, five or six disputes bad taken place ?— No. 

2614. How long did you remain there after the force was withdrawn 7'-^- 
If I recollect right, I think the force came down about the period that I 
went to join my ship, but I am not perfectly certain, it may have been » 
week or ten days before. 

Q615. Did you, during the time you were there, see any intention mani- 
fested on the part of the Chinese government to use force in any way with 
the Factory P — No ; Iar>;e crowds of Chinese assembled around the Factories, 
idly looking on, I suppose attracted by knowing there were guns there, and 
tlic Chinese placed police without the Factories, to keep the crowd in order, 
to prevent any annoyance. 

2GI6. From the day on which the armed force arrived in the Factory did 
not the governor of Canton immediately place police and patroles, in order 
to prevent any of the C hinese interfering with the Factory ? — Yes j and they 
continued alt the time that the force remained there. 

2017. Were not those patroles also withdrawn as soon as the armed force 
was withdrawn ? — They were withdrawn. 

2GI8. Do you recollect the date at which Mr. Marjoribanks and Mr. 
Davis arrived at Macao ? — I sailed on the 18th from Macao, and I think 
they arrived on the 24th. 

S6l9- Then you are not acquainted with any thing that passed afler the 
18th of November? — No. 

2G2O. Was the remonstrance you have mentioned the only one that was 
communicated to the Chinese during the time you staid there ?^— The onl^ 
public petition. 

26ai. Were you present on the SOth of September at Canton ?— Yes, 

ii6^. Do you recollect the circumstance of Captain Mackenzie of the 
Dutch ship Vrow Eleanor, being killed in a scuffle ?— Yes > he was a British 
subject, commanding a ship under Dutch colours. 

0j<23. Are you aware that three Parsees were charged with having stabbed 
Captain Mackenzie, mistaking him for some other person ? — As far wt I 
recollect the particulars, a man of the name of Bovie, who is a foreigner* 
residing in Canton, and the master of those Parsees, a inan of the name of 
Framjee, were resident in the same Hong, that is, a number of buildiagt 
within the same wall, with one gate leading into the Factonr*. and another 
into the streets of Canton; this Mr. Bovie had taken upon nimaelf tolodc 
one of those doors ; there had be 1 some ill feeling between the Fbnee mefw 
chant and him, and the Paraces led tc (oout attbe gate and found it 

locked, and Mr. Bovie had uken 1 ly key. Coniidering that it wst 
public, the Parsees immediately ( Che kcg^ lUi,d; were' told that 

Mr. Bovie had it, and would not n to on out bv the vatc ; they 




SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. «4dP 

immedUtelj, under the direction of (heir master, got crow-bars, and forced 12 July 1831. 
the gate; whilst ihejr ven in the act of doing this, Mr. Bovie came down ~^ 

with a drawn sword to make them desist, and he having the worst of it '''* '' *'"''"■ 
retreitfed to his bouse, calling murder: Captain Mackenzie bearing the cry 
of murder came down to assist; he was unarmed, but I believe he had an 
umbrella, or s(Hnething in his hand. Mr. Bovie having made his retreat, 
and the Parsees being infuriated, I suppoiie, thinking he was coming to the 
anisunce of ihe other, attacked him, and I thinklcnocked liis brains out 
with those crow-bars. 

2624<. Did you know Mr. Sen Van Basel, the Provisional Netherlands 
Consul in China ? — Yes ; he was there at the time. 

9Gi5. Are you awiire that an inquest was summoned immediately to 
inquire into the circumstances attending Mr. Mackenzie's death ? — Yes, by 
his request 

S&tf. Were you upon the inquest i^— No. 

2697. Are you aware that it was composed of foreigners and Englishmen 
generally ? — Yes. 

3628. Did you know any of them? — Yes, several of them; there was a 
Mr. M'Vicar, who I think was foreman, he is a private merchant, and he 
has returned to this country. 

26^. Do you recollect when they met ? — I do not recollect the date, but 
I think they came to a verdict of justifiable homicide. 

2630. In the Canton Gazette of the Sd of October, it was suted that the 

i'ury returned the following verdict, "that the death of Captain F. Mac- 
:enzre was caused by blows inflicted upon him by three Parsees, named 
Nowrojee, Framjee, and Jamsetjee (servants of Merwanjee Flormajee), in 
an affray which took place in the Dutch Hung, on the evening of theSOth 
ultimo." ?— I believe that is correct. 

2631. What situation is Mr. LJndsay in ?— He is one of the East-India 
Company's supercargoes. I think he was the only gentleman of the Factory 
pteaent in Canton at the period ; the Factory had not come up ; they gene* 
nlty come up altogether, when the business of the season commences. 

2632. Do you recollect whether the Netherlands consul applied to Mr. 
Lindsay to have those Parsees arretted immediately after the verdict was 
known?— The impression upon my mind is, that Mr. Lindsay arrested those 
Pfenees for the purpose of protection from the Chinese authorities ^ the 
Chinese authorities would have immediately laid hold of them. After the 
verdict, they were transmitted on board the commodore's ship at Whampoa, 

f order of Mr. Bayoes, when he learned the particulars. 

2633. Do you recollect whether any applicaiton was made by the Chinese 
Uthorities to deliver up those men?— 1 understood that an application had 

been made to deliver them up for eiaminition. 

«Y 2634. Do 




846* EVIPBNCE ON EAST-INDU JlEBAIBS j 

13JuL;ri631. 9634. Do you kaow whether it wa> oottplied wiA?r-It«aa not; the 
~^j^ . P«itsees were wQt pn board the coounodoce's ship titt an opportunity oecuFKd 
Capt T. Bfeij-. ip ggp^ tjjg^jj tQ Bombay, sod they were sent eveo'tualty to Bombay. 

2635. Do you know what passed between the Select Committee and the 
Chinese government respecting them? — 1 understood tliat there were 
frequent demands made for the murderers, .is they called them. The master 
of those Parsees, and Mr. Buvie, the other person implicated in the affair, 
were away from Canton fof some time ; but before I left they had returned, 
and were living unmolested at Canton. 

3636. Were any measures taken by the Chinese aflter their deoMtnd to have 
those Parsees? — I believe no measures were taken ; the country captain that 
was to convey the men was afraid that his ship might be stopped in going 
out, and one of the officers of the commodore's ship applied to me for an 
armed boat to protect them down to the ship ; but the country captain being 
afraid of some deiention on the part of the Chinese, did not' wait at Wham- 
poa, but went through the Bocca Tigris, and remained at lintin. I am not 
aware that the Chinese took any steps ; but he was afraid that there mjght 
be a disposition on the part of the Chinese to interfere. 

2637. Do you recollect whether they were sent dowa after they were 
demanded by the Chinese government to have them delivered over for trial ? 
—I imagine it was after ; that demand was made by the Chinese imiBe* 
diately after the a^'r took place. 

2638. Was it not after those Parsees had been sent away that you attended 
to present this remonstrance ?— >I think it was ader Mr. Baynes arrived about 
that period, and it was not till after his arrival that the remonstrance wat 
^ent to the ciiy gate. 

2639. Do you recollect whether the notice that you mentioned wa& put 
up at the British Factory, was put up b^ore the armed force arrived, or 
after ? — I should think it was after, or on the day qq which it arrived. 

2640. Did you, during the time you were there, see the proclaipation of 
the Clunese government respecting the residence of women in China ?—I. 
cannot say that I saw the proclamation ; I heard of the frequent demapds 
tl^at wom^n shoi^d be sent aw^y. 

264)1. Did any interruption take place to your loatUng and unloading 
your ship during the. time that thjsc armed force was in Canton i^— >No ; every 
Uiiog went on as usual, without any intecrupttoq whatever. 

2642. In short, the Chinese government did not interfere m any vray with 
your mercantile transactions ? — Not at all. 

2643. Were the guns taken out of any ship, or were the gims in the 
Factory ? — With the exception of two carronadea from the commodore's 
ship, they belonged to the Company's cutter, and I think they were often in 
the Factory. 

2644. Was 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 247- 

8644. Was not the trade interrupted at all ? — Four ships sailed in com- itJulylsSl 

pany when we left : it i« customary on leaving to get b grand chop or port- 

dearance ; two of the ships, the Dunira and the Duchess of Athol had not Capt. T. B 

got their port-clearances, but that was not from any general disturbance with 

the Chinese government, but they had a quarrel or dispute with one of the 

•ecurity merchants about duties; and byway of compelling them to pay 

those duties they stopped the ships, which they secured, that is to say, they 

voald not give them their clearances ; and Mr. Baynes upon this desired 

Aose two ships to sail without the usual clearance. I was one of the ships 

that had a pilot on board, and, as having a clearance, I was desired to lead 

the ships, and in passing all the various forts they fired a blank gun, but not 

shotted ; each of the ships also fired a blank gun as the forts did. 

2C45. You mean the forts at the Bocca Tigris ?— Yes ; every fort fired 
one gun, and also the war-junks. 

S64>6. Is not it the rule at Canton that no pilot can go on board unless 
they have got s port-clearance?-— It is. 

3647. Was thei'e any other interruption during the time you were there? 
—Not at all. 

!2&i8. Is there any description of military force at Canton ? — There is a 
very considerable Chinese force. I believe the only opportunity I had of 
seeing a Chinese force collected was at a fire which occurred at Canton, and 
to keep peace and prevent robbery there were 400 or 500 troops sent out, 
and encamped before the factories for a considerable time. 

S649. Was any part of this military force brought out upon the occasion 
you have referred to? — No. 

iG50. What was the name of the captain that was in command of the 
seamen in the Factory ? — Captain Baylis, of the Canning. 

2651. Were you in the habit of communicating personally with some of 
the principal Chinese ? — With the Hong merchants. 

2652. What do you conceive were the impressions made upon the Chinese 
authorities generally, by a large party of troops having been called in to 
protect the Factor}'? — The Hong merchants seemed very much annoyed by 
the government putting them to so much trouble, but they seemed to talk of 
it Ji^tly. 

' t65S. Did they seem to think it was a necessary thing, or an unnecessary 
thing? — They seemed to say that the threat of the governor was a mere 
picee of bravado ; and, to use their own words, they said that both parties 
were too much hot inside. 

4654. Which do vou conceive was the pHncipal cause of the threats of 
Otf Cblribal^ ihttt \dS' tt> an armed force being sent up to the Factory, the 
MMBbhuMoTMi^ Btayne^ or the protection given to the persons that mur- 
~* ** Mr. Mtckenne ?— My own opinion is, Siat the principal cause was the 
SYS demand 




Cage.T.BImr. 



l£4ifl; 19S1> denfttifl' f'li'. tJie suirderers to be giveoup* it being agree«blfl to lite Ww 
of.Cibina.tbatthey shoulft take cognizanae of any tbingorthatkind qocwv 
ring. 

SIB55. Isit not your Impression and belief that the chief, if not tbesole 
cause of the threat of the Chinese government to seize British subjeds 
living in the British Factory, undt;r tite protection of the British 'flag, >ra8, if 
Uiey would not deliver up the Farseea ?— My opinion is, that it : was tb« 
principal cause ; though, as I stated before, 1 heard it said, that the lacjiffi 
being in the Factory was also one of the causes ; but my own opinion. is that 
that was the chief cause. 

i656. Are you aware whether the inquest on the death of Captain Macr 
kenzie pronounced it to be murder, or justifiable homicide ? — I think, in 
speaking to the foreman, Mr. M'Vicar, his opinion was that it was jiistltiabt^ 
humicide. 

5657. Did the Chinese demand those Parsees by name to be given u^ or 
did they generally demand the murderers of Captain Mackenzie? — Th«y 
demanded the murderers of Captain Mackenzie; I understood they wished 
them to be given up that they might enquire into the circumstances. 

5658. Is it not your opinion that if the Parsees had been given up agree- 
ably to that demand, it would have amounted to an acknowledgment that 
they were the murderers of Captain Mackenzie F-^I think, from former 
experience, that would be inferred. 

i659. And that accordingly they would have been executed ? — I imagine 
there is not a doubt of it, as in the case of the American upon a former 
occasion. 

e660. Are you aware whether the Chinese government has made any 
reduction in their port-charges during the last year, as compared with former 
years ?->-Tliere has been a reduction to some extent, perhaps 6OO or 70O 
ddlars Dpon each ship, but I think that arose out of demands made in the 
former season, when the fleet was detained outside, and not in consequence 
trf' any thing that occurred in the last season ; and 1 rather think tiucompr*- 
dores, the men that supply our ships with provisions, have the benefit of that< 
for they charge us the same as formerly, and therefore 1 think those reduc- 
tions have been in favour of the Chinese. 

^61. Are yoQ aware whether the alteration made has not been to charge 
a different rale on different sized ships according to the measuremeat ?— •! 
am nut aware whether there is any reduction on the measurenient. 

366s, During the time that that armed force was at Canttm were any 
orders issued to the compradores, or was there any interference whatever - 
with the usual mode of carryir^ on business ?t— None at all. 

S663. Was this alleged to be the first instance of any European lady resid- 
ing in the Factory ?— 1 think I have heard of instances many y^rsago. 

2664. In what light is it considered objectionable to their preludices?-^ 

That 




SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OP COMMONS. «49* 

That it was not cnslomary ; I believe the principal cause was. that it collected 12 Jnk Ift 

etomda of Chinese tc^ether to look, and it might occusioo sotte misunder- 

itdndin^ between them and Europeans. ^^ ^* ' 

966S. Are there not several British subjects in Canton not connected mth 
the Company ? — Yes. 

VG66. Are you of your own knowledge aware of their being exposed to 
my particular oppressions or restrictions from the Chinese government, either 
in their persons or their trade?— Not at all. 

2667. Are you aware of a petition sent by those British subjects to Eng- 
land, complaining of certain extortions, and petitioning for redress? — I hav'e 
heard of it. 

2668. In general do you believe that the allegations of the petition are 
well founded as to extortions practised upon them by the officers of the Chi- 
nese gorerninent, and the difficulties thrown in the way of their trade, and as 
to perpetual insults which they received from the authoriiiesJ^— I am not 
aware of any except the placards stuck up about the streets. 

$669. Have you ever received any insult from any of the public authori- 
ries ? — Never. 

2670. Did you ever see any insult offered ? — ^Never. 

4671. Have you not been at Canton while the ships companies were there, 
and seen rows take place there ?— I have seldom seen rows there ; we send 
very few men up at a time. 
' 267s. Have you been to several other ports in India?— I have. 

2673. In considering the conveniences for loading and unloading, and 
clearing and carrying on the business of the ship, have you found more trou- 
ble and annoyance at Canton than you did at Calcutta, or Madras and Bom* 
bay ?^I should think less than in almost any port I have ever been at. 

2674. Is there not more facility afforded in Canton to foreign trade than 
in any other port you have ever been in ? — [ think so } the fiict is, that the 
cuitoms and duties are regulated between the Chinese merchant and the 
govenmient, and that keeps us from going into any collision with them. 

9675. Have you not very near your ship the custom-house boats regu- 
larly moored? — There is the police of the river, but they do not interfere, 
except there is any irregularity going on, and then they report it to the go- 
vernment, and we hear of it through one of the security-merchants. 

3676. What was the general impression among Europeans at Canton re- 
•peeiing the expediency of ordering up an armed force to the British Factory 
at that perifKl 7— There were various opinions ; some said it was nonsense, 
and others thought it was a very proper precaution j I have heard very dif- 
fewpt opinionK upon the aubjecL 

f677. Are you aware that an American captain carried his wife lately to 
Canton ^^-Tbere were one or two American ladies there lU the tiipe I was 

there, 



250^ EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDI A AFFAIRS: 

12 July 1831. there, and when I left, their trade was stopped upou that account} and I 
*~~' recollect that one of the gentlemen said that they were advised to persevere 

Capi. T. Blmr. j^ keeping them there j that the thing would soon be considered a custom. 

2678. Were they there during the time that Mrs.-Baynes was in the Eng* 
lish Factory ? — She was in the Factory at the time they came, but I think 
they did not come till after the occurrence which I have mentioned. 

2679* Do you know whether the Chinese government interrupted the 
trade with the American ships, and did not interrupt it with the British ?— I 
recollect the Americans saying that they had pointed out to the Chinese that 
Mrs. Baynes was allowed to remain, and why should their women go away ; 
and they said English ladies remaining was one thing, and the American 
ladies was another ; that they could not remain ; but the ladies were there 
when I left. 

Capt. J, Innes. Captain JOHN INNES called in, and examined. 

2680. Were you at Canton between the months of August and December 
1830 ?— I was. 

2681. What ship did you command? — I commanded the Honourable 
Company's ship the Abercrombie Robinson. 

2682. Were you the senior officer ? — I was the senior officer of the season. 

2683. When did you arrive at Macao ? — The 1st of September. 

2684<. Did you proceed to Whampoa with your ship as usual ? — ^No ; I had 
directions from the Select Committee to anchor my ship in a bay at a dis- 
tance from Whampoa, the usual anchorage. 

2685. What distance ? — Perhaps 150 miles north-east. 

2686. Is there any port there ?— There is a Chinese town in the vicinity. 

2687* What was the nature of the instructions you received i^-^I oronot 
charge my recollection in the name of the charge, but to anchor in that bay 
till further orders. 

2688. Was any reason assigned why it should remain there ?•— None what- 
ever. 

2689. How many ships afterwards joined you ?^*I received orders Atom 
the Committee, I think, after the 5th of September to direct all ships that 
came in after that period to go up to the usual anchorage, Lintin. 

2690. How many were in the bay with you?— ^From seven to ten. 

2691. All regular sliips? — All regular ships. 

2692. How long did you lie in that bay ?— From eight to ten days. 

2693. Where did you then proceed to ?•— We proceeded then to Wbampocrf 

2694. Were any reasons assigned why you should not proccfed t6"Whtttii 
poa direct? — No reasons ; I merely received an order^ which I deenurd Jty* 
self bound to obey. - ^ .. •: 1 . ^ii ^ 



SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OF COMMONS. «51* 

9693. Then between yoar first arrival in China, and your arrival at ^^ •'"'y ^*^^ 

Whampoa, how many days elapsed ? — I think fifteen ; the distance between ^ "7". 
1 Jntin and Whampoa, where the pilot takes charge, is fifty or sixty miles, ^' 
and it is frequently a tedious navigation. 

2696. Did you apply to the Select Committee for leave to proceed, or 
send up your investment ? — I did not. 

2697. Did any others? — Not that I am aware of. 

2698. During the time you were at Whampoa did you receive any orders 
from the Select Committee to send up an armed force to Canton ? — I did re- 
ceive such orders. I was not prepared for this investigation, otherwise I 
would have brought my memorandums with me. 

2C99. Were you at Whampoa, or at Canton, when you received the orders? 
— -1 was at Canton. 

2700. Do you recollect the nature of the orders ?— The nature of the 
orders was to send up an armed force to protect persons and property in the 
Company's Factory. 

2701. Did you obey that order? — Implicitly. 

2702. What force did you send up ? — To the best of my recollection, from 
130 to 150 men, fully armed, with muskets, pistols, and cartridges. 

2703. How many guns did you send up?— I sent up two 32-pounders. 

2701^* How long did they remain in Canton ? — From eight to ten days. 

2705. Were they under your command during the time they stayed there? 
—They were. 

270C. Were they confined within the Factory ? — By my orders they were. 

2707. And they regularly remained within the Factory ?-^They did. 

2708. Did you see any demonstrations on the part of the Chinese of any 
intention to interfere with you? — Not more than a mob of people collected 
about the Factory ; no regular force. 

2709* Was there not a force of Chinese police-officers to keep off the mob ? 
—There were a few fellows witli whips. 

2710. Did they answer the purpose of keeping them from the Factory ? — 
I do not think they did. 

2711. Did they come into the Factory ? — They never came into the Fac- 
tory ; we had regular guards in the Factory gates, inside the gates. 

2712. Did you see or hear of any demonstration on the part of the Chinese 
government of the intention to interfere with the Factory? — The Chinese 
governor issued a tlireat» as I understood, to that effect, that be would send 
a force to expel certain ladies who were in the Factory. 

t71Sw Wis that written^ or verbal ?*-I believe verbal; communicated by 
the principal Hong merchant. 

2714. Are 



£. 



.« 



^ «5«* EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS: 

12 July 1831. 2714, Are you aware whether that was an order from the governor at Can- 

.t ."T^ *^"» ^^ whether it was not disavowed by him? — I have every reason to be- 

impe. J. innes. u^^^ ^^^^ j^ ^^^ ^^ ^^^^^ directly from him. 

2715. How long did you remain in Canton?— Till the 29tb of November. 

2716. During that time, did not the governor of Canton disown having 
sent any such threat? — He did not disown it ; he so far retracted it as to say 
it was sent in a passion. 

2717. Were you one of the party who presented the petitions at Canton ? 
—I was not, personally ; the petitions were presented under my orders. 

2718. Did you sign the petition ?'-! did not; I had orders to collect a 
force of a certain number, to accompany the gentlemen of the Factory to 
carry the petition. 

2719. Under whose direction did they proceed ?— Under the direction of 
a gentleman of the Factory, I having given them orders to that effect. 

2720. What gentleman of the Factory presided over them ? — I think Mn 
Jackson. 

2721. Are you aware what took place at the gate ? — ^The petition was 
received. 

2722. Was there any collision ? — There was some squabble with the guard 
at the gate. 

2723. Was there any thing more than what usually happens when peti* 
tions of that kind are presented ? — I believe nothing more. 

2724. Who was chief of the Select Committee when you were there ? 
— Mr. Baynes. 

2725. Did Mr. Baynes arrive before you did ? — My first interview with 
Mr. Baynes was at Macao. 

2726. Did his lady proceed with him, or come after him ^— She proceeded 
with him five or six weeks after the arrival of the first ship. 

2727. Was any objection taken immediately to her residence there ?— I 
understood not. 

2728. How long had they resided there before that order was sent to you? 
— I think about a week. 

2729. Did the armed force that you sent up proceed by day or by night ? 
— By night. 

2730. Did they meet with any interruption ? — None whatever ; I received 
the orders at six in the evening, and the force and the guns were in the Fac« 
tory before day-light in the morning, and the sentries planted. 

2731. Did you remain after Mr. Baynes, or did you leave first?— >I left 
Canton before Mr. Baynes. 

2732. During the time you were there, did any interruption take place in 
any of your intercourse with the Chinese ?— None. 

«7M- Did 



SELECT CbAIMI'rtl&E of thk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 253^ 

2733. Did any during that time take place with any oF the American 12 July 18 

'ihijisr— During the time I was at Canton there was an interruption took • 

place with the Americans ; the trade of a particular ship was stopped in con- ^^^^' '^' ^'' 
Mf^petice of some American ladies having come up to Canton. 

M' > ^gfSif. Is it not your impression and belief that the chief cause of an armed 

".fbrce having been ordered to Canton by the Select Committee was the threat 

of the Chinese government to seize certain British subjects ? — I believe so. 

^S5. Was it not expressly stated that it was on account of the residence 

of Mrs. Baynes? — The Viceroy shifted the question when he knew the homi- 

/ddes were out of his power, who had been sent away in consequence of the 

^directions I had from Mr. Baynes to send them down in armed boats below 

the fort. 

2786. You refer to the Parsees who killed Captain Mackenzie? — ^Yes. 

4737. Do you recollect the date of your receiving those orders from Mr. 
Baynes to send them away ?— I cannot state the date. 

?738. Did the inquest upon the death of Captain Mackenzie declare the 
'Parsees to have been the murderers of Captain Mackenzie? — I was not at 
Canton during the inquest. 

9739. If the lady had been the lady of a private individual, would the 
Chinese, in your opinion, have stopped the whole trade ? — I do not think so ; 
the Chinese during the whole season never attempted to stop the trade for an 
hour. 

^40. Sopposing that lady had been the wife of any private individual, 
would that have caused the stoppage of any trade that was not belonging to 
the Company ?-«— I believe it would. 

2741. Was the whole of the American trade stopped ?— •No, only one ship. 

2748. Had you any communication or conversation with the captain of 
the American ship whose vessel was stopped in consequence of the American 
lady beiag there ?-*I had not ; the other Americans remonstrated with the 
agent for the ship, and the result was that the ladies were sent down to 
Macao immediately, as the other ships did not choose to have their trade 
stopped for a lady they had nothing to do with. 



S Z 



$J^ ^VIP^NC^ ON I^ST-IKDIA AFFAIRS: 

Iim'li$, l^'dieJulU, 1831. 



819 Gboboe Thohas Stapnton, Baet. in the Chair. 



19 July 1831. 



ROQERT RICKARDS, Ei^. nlled is, and eianioml. 



R Richard, Eta *?*^' ^^' «Uu»tioo d^ jou fiU in lBdi«?^I fitted Mwnil ia the cWI 
' ' service of tSe Eut-IodU Conipanjt under tb« fionbir and tie Madnw 
governmeDts ; my laat situatioD was that of Member of Council id BomlMy. 

^A^ HfO.w maivy jean ^rq jcm ifb Indwi^Aboat tiRNt7>drt«'7eara 
al^ether. 

974^. Were you a Menbec of thaHmnft of ConMMma^ andof thefteteei 
Comniittee appointed to inquife. into tbe affiunof tli* EMUlndia CoMiniij 
inlSia?— Iwas. 

2746. In what year did you return from Indiai and have you nnce Cttat 
period been enraged, in Uie tradq wi^h India?— I returned. in che year Mil 
from Indiat andt I l)8xe b««n more or Iqss actively tngaged in the- Mdj» tnuir 
fbrtt)^ la^t fifteen or sixteen y,ear^ ondiam ncnr. engi^^iniiii. 

3747. Will you state the terms io which the EasUlndia Company expressed 
ttifjir view* aQtbali time as to. the practicability of extending- tfieSidlsii com- 
n)|9i'<i^ wiiifih at that, timewaftadvooatiedbf'the British- merchanti'?-:—Fwourd' 
beg leave to premise that I have always been of opinion^ that tHe Cdmpany 
hay^ l9boure4-upd^r.Xiieat q^iscoaoepUpnai. as well with regaiid to'thaipown 
trade as to that which is commQnl^ called; the priyaite. trade ^c allitlMt Xhare 
ever said or vfrittenupon this s.ubjectha9 arisen from th« oanvJcticMiof thiai 
fAct^ and iPin the end it shall.be .proved that I am right} Ltruitiit wiUubaa 
alto apf^ar that t have not beeiti actuated. by. that spirit of;hoMilil|i-^taitiw 
Ccjmpany vrhicb I by ve ofl^n .but unjustly been, accmedoftji and, tbatilhaiWi 
only endeavoured to expose an erroneout course ofi pmgaadtD^ ivhwhi^I 
solemnly believe, is not only attended with great national injiiry^ but leading 
the (. ompany themselvea to certain and irretrievable ruin. The answer 
which I am about to give to this query will conuin a proof, amongst many 
others which exist, of the errors and misconceptions here adverted to. In the 
the Report of the Committee of Correspondence of the Court of Directors, 
on the 9th of February 1813, and handed up to the President of the Board 
of Control, with a letter of the 10th following, it is expressly statedt ** that 
all the expectations then entertained by British merchants. as to the wished* 
for opening of the Indian trade were groundleiB and deluHvey that thou 
who should act upon them, if the trade were opened, would be sore to ex. 
perieoce ruin, loss, and disappointment and that theabolitioo of the Com- 
• - paoy's 




SELECT COMMITTEE op thb HOUSE OF COMMONS, k^ 

ptDjr^B commercial privileges wouhl be in effect the extinction of the whole ^^ July 1 
of the present Indian system/' " Can the Court therefore/' they add, " with j^. T~J 
these convictions, lend themselves to promote the dangerotis c6nce|!>tioM ** ^^^^^^^ 
already too prevalent, at the sacrifice of so much individual interest, afhl of 
that public interest, the care of which is intrusted to them. If it w^ere indeed 
probable that by a slow process the commercial intercourse between this 
country and the East could be enlarged, the effect would be far too distaikt 
to relieve the present pressure, and the first adventurers be more likely to 
pkinge the trading world into fresh difficulties*** In the l6th page of the 
same Report they add, *' after all tiie knowledge, which successive ages have 
afforded upon this subject, that men of general intelligence and cultivation 
should, in opposition to the usual course of human affairs, adopt the fond 
idea of entering at once into the enjoyment of a new world of commerce, 
is a most striking instance of credulity, and of the power which interest and 
imagination united have to impose upon the understanding.'' 

37^8. Do you think the Company were justified in those assertions on any 
experience of the actual state of the Indian trade between 179^93 and 
1813? — I do not think they were justified. In the discuHsions which took 
place in 1813, the Company and their advocates always insisted that the trade 
of India, both import and export, was carried by^the Company themselves to 
the utmost extent of which it was susceptihle. They argued this position as 
if no extension of the Indian trade had taken place since 1793, when great 
concessions, they said, were made to private merchants. Possibly they were 
led to this conclusion from the circumstance of their own trade remaining 
throughout this period stationary ; but facts at this time, had they been care- 
fully examined, would have afforded a different result ; the American trade, 
for example, had greatly encreased between the years 1794 and 1811 ; for 
ten years from 17949 during which the increase was progressive, their exports 
from Bengal alone averaged £464,3^ per annum, and their imports £390,606 
per annum ; in six years from 1802-3 to 1807-8 their imports into all India 
averaged £1,247,920, and their exports £1,154,494 per annum ; and in three 
years from 1808-9 to 1810-11 their imports were £1,627,612 and their exports 
£1,705,814 per annum ; this was a great and progressive increase. The 
Company endeavoured to explain it by the existing state of our European 
wars, the Americans being at that time the only neutrals, and consequently 
the carriers of the world ; adding, that it might be taken as a certainty that, 
whenever war ceased, all their advantages would cease with it, and their power 
of entering into competition with the Company in the trade of our own settle- 
ments would be greatly reduced. The American trade with India however 
did not fall off until the Company obtained the consent of His Majesty's 
Ministers to impose a double duty on the neutral trade of India, which then 
applied almost solely to the Americans. In 1793 private merchants were par- 
tially admitted into the Indian trade, for which a class of ships called extra 
ships were provided by the Company. The forms and restrictions of this 
mrraogement were such as to be attended with numerous inconveniences and 

2 Z 2 obstructions 




«56* EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

19 July 1831. obstructions to private merchants; consequently this branch of trade could 
— — not be carried to the full extent of which it was susceptible, still it appears 

S-HtckardB, Eaq. ^^ ^^^^ greatly increased ; the imports from India in 1793-4, by privileged 
traders being only£181,710, and in 1811-12, £1,169,023. These facts are any. 
thing but corroborative of the Court of Directors opinion. They seem to have 
thought the trade had not increased, because the whole of the tonnage apprc^ 
priated by them to the privilege trade was not occupied, but this is easily 
accounted for by the forms, restraints, delays, and even rate of freiffht, to 
whicli merchants w«re liubte in extra ships ; while subsequent events show to 
what extent the trade was capable of increase, when merchants were allowed 
after 1813 to follow up their own objects and pursuits at their own time, and 
in their own way. 

27-l<9- From whence do you derive the facts you have stated i*— These 
facts would be found distinctly stated in detail, in the 12th and 13th pages 
of the same Heport. 

'i^50. With these facts before them, does it appear upon what grounds the 
Company advanced and maintained the opinions you have read ? — In the 
report before alluded to, they state their opinion to be founded on the esp^ 
rience of all the nations of Europe for three centuries, the testimony of 
ancient history, the climate, the nature, the usages, the custom, the preju- 
dices, and the religious and political institutions, of the Eastern people j 
backed, as they add, by the great mass of British subjects then in £urope, 
acquainted with the countries of the East j whilst on the side of the petition- 
ing merchants there was nothing but a sanguine theory. 

27^1. Did not the Company quote Adam Smith and Montesquieu in cor- 
roboration of their views, and insist that the reasoning of those authors was 
more agreeable to experience on the subject of Indian commerce, than the 
reasoning of the free traders who sought to interfere with the commerce of 
India ? — In the same report, the Court of Directors did quote both Montes- 
quieu and Dr. Adam Smith, but the inference drawn from the opinion of the 
latter is not quite accurate ; for Dr. Smith bad distinctly asserted that ** the 
East Indies offered a market for the manufactures of Europe greater aiid 
more extensive than both Europe and Amerii a put together." This the 
Court of Directors positively deny ; but on t opening of the trade in 18IS 
Dr. Smith's assertion began to be verified, it I is ever since received incfBi^ 
ing proofk of its accuracy, and would certainly be provcil to the very letter, 
if the rights and interestsof thenativesofind were more justly attemled lo, 
80 as to be relieved from that state of extn e poverty to which the grcst 
mass of the population is reduced by the ration and efieci of our fisi:al 
institutions. 

S752. Those ob t ns i ted to have been made were 

made aeainst the inc tl ti to India. Did not the Com- 

pany object with eqi force ist ig of the trade witl) respect to 

the out-ports } and did they i uin to tliem, if they were per. 

milted 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS, to?* 

mitted to engage in that commerce ? — In page 10 of the same Report, they '^ •'■'b' '^^ 
did as slreniiously insist that the opening of the trade to the out-potts of this _ jtjL~j. 
kingdom, which the petitioners prayed for, would be quite ruinous to the '"^ ' 

Port of London. Their argument on that head was, that ** the immense 
interests which the Port of London, with all its descriptions of merchants, 
tradesmen, tea-dealers, factors, brokers, dyers, packers, calenderera, inspec- 
tors labourers, !>hip-buiK!er8, 8hi)>-chandlers, rope-makers, shipowners, ma- 
riners, and all their train of establishments, warehouses, wharfs, docks, 
yards, premises, shipping, formed in the course of two centuries, would all 
be involved by the opening of the trade to the out-ports. The Company'a 
periodical sales, on which so much of the order mid success of their business 
depend, would he interfered with, and their very large property in warehouses 
and other buildings deteiiorated ; in short, all the in^litutions, public and 
private, of l)ie capital, for carrying on the eastern trade, would be shattered 
or broken down." His Majesty's Ministers, however, thought otherwise. 
TweK-e out-ports were opened to the Indian trade, and have carried it on 
briskly ever since ; and it does not appear that the Company's sales have 
fallen off, their property become deteriorated, or that any of the above-men- 
tioned establishments have broken down, or that London has been ruined, as 
A consequence of this event 

9!y53, Did not the Company upon that occasion also assert that they had 
an experience of twenty years lo support their opinioD, that no new commo- 
dities had found their way there during the partial facilities that had been 
given, and thai the opinions of Dr. Smith, whicli they formerly quoted, as 
regarded the probable extension when the trade was opened, had not been 
verified and could not be verified ? — The opinion of the Court of Directors 
on this beail, and their consequent predictions were, thjt in the whole period 
of twenty years, from 1793, in which facilities and enlargements never 
enjoyed betbre had been given for private enterprize and adventure, in which 
the private trade had considerably increased, and on the whole a very ample 
experiment liad been made, not one new article for tlie consumption of the 
natives ii:id been exported; adding, in another place, " In the period of 
forty years since Dr. Adam Smith published bis woik ' On the Wealth of 
Nation^,* the endeavours of alt Europe and America have made no discovery 
of that immense market for European manufactures which he said was 
(^red by the East Indies;" and on these grounds the Court of Directors 
founded their favourite argument of its being utterly impracticable to extend 
our commeicial intercourse with India. To this 1 would answer, that it is 
quite obvious that tlie trade between India and Britain had greatly increased 
between 1793.4 and 1S13, and as certain that the increase has been made 
much greater since. If therefore we consider the variety, as well as quantity, 
of the exports and imports included in this increase, we shall be satisfied 
Ifaut it niu^t have contained many articles which, though classed under cer- 
tain general denominational were entirely new to Indians. Under the head 
of metals ^ ezanplc, spelter is an entirely new article of export ; under 

cotton 




19 July IBSI. cottoD goofis* B.«iidaiia h^^dkervhiefik bqo]i;-;ntwMBi imiution Bh«vl|, anA 
7— ~~ cotton-y^rn or twist, are atap pew art\f Vei of fzpor^ But if the CoBvni^tMf 

a. Rifiiardt.Etq. ^^y ^^^^ ^^^ (rouble of iaapectiag^ Np» 37 of 1ib<» *< Papers relating to Xhm 
Finance of India, and the trade of India j^nd China/' laid beforo t^e Select 
Committee of la^it year, ^nd purporting to bgae account of imports aed 
e:tports between Great Britain and places to tl^B eastward of th« Cape of 
Good Hope, betweei;^ 18J4 and 1&S8, they vil.l perc^« a gceat variety of 
aEticles of which nothing was eithef: exported or imported by the Compaoyh 
Irut large quat^iticA by individual^ some articles, of whicb ths rQturo is mX 
in 1814, and la^e quantities by individuals in 18SS, aiod an imcvieiise.inci:eaaft 
by private merchants in all the principal articles of consumption, betweesi 
1814 and 1828. It is impossible therefore, I think, to deny that the trade 
has vaaily increaaed since 1799 \ that t;he increase embracea a gre^ varietjF 
of articles formerly unknown, or opt used in India ;, and lastly^ that the 
Coippany never have carried tfa^ trade, and never <)ould curiy it to th#i 
extent of which it is obviously susceptible. 

9^54t. Do the returns generally of the commerce since the charter of ^i4- 
oppose those opinions which the Company allied against the opening ofth* 
trade?— If the Committee will please to refrr to No. 40 of **PRpers reladv*- 
to the Finances of India, and the Trade of India and China," it will thenoo- 
appear that the Company's export and import trade haa, on, tlie average of 
sixteen years only, amounted to 1,68,27,820 rupen, or at 2i. t)»e rupq^- 
£1,882,782 per annum ; whilst; that of fvivate individuala baa leveraged for 
tbe same period d,4d,14,£20 rupeea, or'£5,4>51,4Ji2perannum. Theprivata 
trade is therefore nearly five times ^ great as Uie Coropany'a, and it prqves-. 
three things: first, that the Company nave not carried the trade to its &ll«it 
extent ; secondly, that private, traders are much fitter for extending the qooh 
niercial intercourse with India thitn theEwt-lDdiaOompanycanbe; andthirdljb, 
that no definable limit can be placed to the extension of this trade if our ipatJr 
tutions abroad adfpitted of growing wealth, among t^e natives. Were this 
the case, I have always maintained, and still muat n^intaiq, that Di;. 4dsw 
Smith's predictions with regard to the capabilities of this trade would be.- 
completely verified. 

37^. These observations you have now made apply entirely to the trade- 
with India? — Entirely; the voucher I have reftrred to^ No.'ii^ wiUahow.'iU 

2706. In the course of U i iry t t : place before the Select Com- 
mittee in 1813, whatopini c y 11 express upon that subject, as a 
witness before the Coa it f-~\ I wa$ Uic only person in the 
House of Commons who St: lu y t ipon the opinions of tlic Court 
of Directors as regarding the t U> ind lu the Impossibility of its exten- 
sion, bepg ^solutely unf ed, id C ilete variance with what I con- 
ceived to be the real cha ind religious prejudices of the 
natives of India. 



2797. HwD the ofHoifMit you g»e nt,' 13, in opposition to almost the 

whole 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. ^5^^ 

trhole evidence taken from the Company's 8ervanti^ you allege to have been Id July 1831 
verified by the result of the last nineteen years? — I do; and I submit that ~". 

the experience of the present day proves it unequivocally. R. Richards, 1 

2758. To tirhat circumstances do you ascribe the extended ahd extending 
consumption of llritish manufactures among the natives of India? — First to 
our manufactures and staples being perfectly suited to the wants and tastes of 
the natives of India, who will assuredly use and consume them to the utmost 
extent of their means ; and secondly, to the great cheapness of British arti- 
cles consequent on the use of machinery, with capital sufficient in this country 
to employ it with the fullest effect. 

2759. Admitting the vast reduction which has taken place in the cost of 
British productions in this country since 1813, do you conc^fve that the Indian 
trade would have attained its present amount had the laWS which regulated it 
previous to 1813 been continued up to the present period, instead of being 
changed as they were at that period ?— Certainly not. My previous answer 
presumed, as of course, the opening of the trade which had been effected in 
1813. 

2760. Then, in your opinion, the extension has taken place in consequence 
of the freedom and facility which was given at the commencement of the 
present Charter to the British merchants ? — I have not the least doubt of it. 

2761. Is it your opinion that if greater facilities were still given, a con- 
tinued extension of the trade would go on? — It would undoubtedly, if those 
facilities were coupled with a salutary reform of the local institutions abroad ; 
for it should always be remembered that trading with a wretchedly poor 
people can only be carried on to a limited extent. 

27(i'J. You mean the municipal regulations within the Company's territo- 
ries ( — Yes, I mean the revenue and judicial regulations chiefly. 

2763. What are the present rates of freight out and home to India in the 
free trade? — The common rate of freight outwards on dead weight is from 
205. to 30s. per ton ; on li)i;ht goods from £2 to £3 per ton. The freight 
homewards upon private ships is, on dead weight, about £4 ; and upon light 
goods from 1*5 to £ti per ton. These have been common freights for some 
years. 

2764. What would you consider the average freights out and home to have 
been during the last eight or ten years?— From eight to ten or twelve pounds 
per ton, out and home. 

27^* That is nearly what the presentrate is ? — Yes. 

2706. Do you think it possible that the present rate of freights can continue 
and afford remuneration to the owner ?— It has continued for so many years, 
timt there is reason to suppose ship-owners ritust find their advantage in these 
voyages, or s6 many of our ships Would not proceed, as at present, annually 
to* India. 

2707. Caft yoilMitfc whit weM the pelu^frei^hts jMid by the^ East-India 

Company 



«60* EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

Ifi July I83i. Company before the war, at the time of the French Revohition of I789 and 
~~~ 179U? — In a publication by Mr. Aiiber, the present secretary of the India 

R. lUrktrdt, l.sq, jjo„se^ (he rates of freigiit paid by the East-India Company in 1786 are 
stated to be on ships to Bombay, £2ti per ton ; Coast and Bay, £27 per ton i 
anii Ciiina direct £21i per ton ; this was the common rate of freight then pre- 
vailin^j. Fur the last three or four years the Company have chartered ships 
at fVom £8 to £11 per ton for the voyage to an<l from India, for single 
voyages, 

3768. What is the freight paid by the Company for the regular chartered 
ships taken tip for five voyages? — In the papers upon the table of this Com- 
mittee, which I had occasion to refer to last year, I think it is now stated to 
be about i'SO or £21 per ton. For some years, I believe, afler the last war, 
it was as high as £28. 

2769. If the freights which you have stated as formerly paid by the Com- 
pany had continued, would it have been practicable (o have imported cotton- 
wool, sugar and saltpetre, or any other gniS'-goods which are at present so 
largely imported at the reduced freights ? — It would have been perfectly im- 
possible at the rate of freight mentioned, and the present selling prices of the 
article in this country. They are sometimes imported at a loss even at the 
low rates paid on private ships. 

2/70. You mean to say that many of those gruff articles are imported to 
England now at that reduced rate at a loss, solely for the sake of remittance? 
— Those goods, such as sugar and saltpetre, are often put on board as being 
required for dead weight ; as such, they are at times imported into this 
country at a loss, partly, too, occasioned by the high prices which private mer- 
chants are obliged to pay for them in India. 

2771. Do you consider that there is any limit to the exportation of Bri- 
tish produce except the difficulty of finding a return ? — Returns areindispen- 
sahic to promote an extended consumption of British manufactures abroad. 
The want of facilities in this respect is one cause of limiting the export of 
British goods, and that is mainly occasioned, as I have before explained in my 
examinations before this Committee, by the interference of the Company in 
the Indian trdde, and the almost total obstruction to remittances via China, 
occasioned by ihe Company's monopoly. 

2772. Will you state what you consider to be the principal obstructions 
which still impede the extension of the Indian trade? — There are certain 
forms and restrictions imposed by law on persons and ships proceeding to 
India, all of which are in my humble opinion very unnecessary, and are 
another cause of limiting the extension of the commercial intercourse b^ 
twcen the two countries j but the greatest obstacle of all is, as I have fre^ 
(jticntly observed, the extreme and universal poverty of the great mass of the 
people ; in addition to which is the Company's interference in the trade, and 
the exclusion of Britisti shipping from that branch of trade included within the 
China monopoly. I have fully explained my seDtimeots on these heads in 

foroMr 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS, aei" 

former examiaations, and it may be therefore superfluous to repeat them 
here. 

2773. What are the forms and restrictions you allude to which are attended 
to in the trade to India, and not required in other trades from England?— In 
ray examination before the Select Committee on Foreign Trade in 1821, I ex- 
uiaini'd how licenses to persons to reside in India were granted at the lodia- 
House, to which I would bug leave to refer the Committee upon the present 
occasion. Tht-y will there find what difficuhy, delay und expense attend the 
procuring of such licenses, and how completely the object of the Act of 181S 
was, nml still is, contravened. The Act requires a simple certificate to be 
given to all pcrso::s indiscriminately desirous of going to and remaining in 
India for Uwfiil pmiwses ; but the Court of Direct ors, even when they com- 
ply with the appliciiion, requires the party to enter into a regular covenant 
or imienturc, sulijiv-t to certiiln conditions, with a penalty-bond by two sure- 
ties } for all which payment is rcqtiircd. The Court also is in the hahit of 
refusing permission unle<;j the applicant can .show an invitation from a settled 
house in India to join it, or some such cogent cause; but the Act gives them 
no power of ref "using, this power being solely vested in the Board of Control, 
on good and sufficient reasons being shown. This Act too reqnires certifi- 
cates to he granted to applicants without limit as to their residence in either 
of the principal settlements, whilst the covenant confines him to a particular 
town or presidency ; and if this were rigidly enforced it might often prove 
ruinous to tiie lawful occupations and pursuits of a mercantile man. In 
short, tile Act seemt obviously intended to promote free intercourse with 
the inhabitants of India, whilst the covenant is obviously a restrictive, and as 
I think, unnecessary process ; and being so completely at variance with the 

{>lain wording of the Act, I cannot do otherwise than doubt its entire 
egality. 

277-t-. Has any difference taken place since the year 1S31 in the mode of 
grunting those licenses ? — None, except with regard to shipping. 

277-^- What alteration has taken place ? — ^The obstacle in that respect 
was remedied by the Act of the 4 Geo. 4. ch. BO ; they are now permitted 
to go more freely. 

377O. Under the cimstruction put on the Charter Act of ISIfJ, were not 
the shipping of Britain precluded by the Company from carrying on the 
coasting trade of India previous to 1K23 ? — They were. 

2777. What U the present practice in this respect ?— They may now carry 
it on, but are first required to clear out from this country to one of the 
presidencies of India before they can go to the other ports. 

277^' Has the removal of the restriction as to tonnage prescribed by the 
Act of £3 Geo. 3. ch. \35, given any facility in conducting the Indian trade ; 
and are ships of less burthen than 3SQ tons at present engaged in the Indian 
trade ?'— Ships of smaller burthen now proceed to India. Ships of 250 tons, 
or ku, are the moit convenieot liie for Singapore and the eastern Archipo. 
8 A lagoi 




H. lUckaTds,Eiq. 



26«* EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

lago ; and oftea better suited to the means of persons engaging in the Indiaa 
trade. 

277d> Upon your experience as a merchant in London, receiving consign- 
ments from different parts of India, have you found that the cargoes im- 
ported in those smaller vessels have heen equally well taken care of as in 
larger? — There has been no difference that I am aware of in the state of car- 
goes received by large or smaller vessels, when the ships themselves are equally 
good and well found. 

^730. Has there been any difference in the rate of freight generally, and 
the expenses of sailing them between the smaller and the larger ships ? — The 
rate of frei;^ht is the same in all : the expense of sailing must of course be less 
in the smaller vessels. 

i27Sl. Previous to the year 1821 did the Directors of the East-India Com- 
paiiy readily grant certificates to persons desirous to proceed to India for the 
purposes of tiade, in conformity to the section of the 33 Geo. 3? — I 
explaineti particularly in 18'2l tlie difficulties and expenses incurred by 

fiersons applying for licenses to proceed to India, and I have again recapitu- 
ated that evidence in a preceding answer. 

2782. Are you aware on what grounds the Directors objected to granting 
certificates so far as you think they ought to be done? — The Directors have 
always, from the earliest period of their history, been averse to private mar- 
chants interfering in the Indian trade : they have always dreaded this inter- 
ference as fraught with injury to their own commercial operations. Whether 
they have any other motives for the restraints and limitations imposed I am 
not aware \ but such has always appeared to me to contravene the intentions 
of the Legislature expressed in the Act of 1813. 

2783. Have they demanded written covenants from all persons proceeding 
to India for commercial purposes ? — It was in 1821, and 1 believe still is, the 
custom to take a bond from applicants for a license to proceed to India, and 
tiien to grant them either Free Merchants Indentures, Free Mariners Inden- 
tures, or " Persons to reside Covenants." The cost of these is as follows : 

For Free Merchants Indentures - £2? 10. Bond and Indenture. 

Free Mariner ditto - - - - 9 10. 

" Persons to reside" Covenant - 12 0. 
Of this latter sum i" is for stamps, viz. three Coveoants or Indentures exe- 
cuted in triplicate, each 3.'>£. — £.5. Os. One Bond Stamp to be entered into 
by two liuuscholders in the sum of £^0 jointly or severally, £l. Ids. 
Total i7. 

2784. Did they require those covenants from masters of ahips acting as 
supercargoes? — Not unless they intended to remain in India. 

2783. All masters or supercargoes of vessels proceeding to India with the 
intention of remaining, were reqniretl to enter into some covenant as if if 
went out as passengers ? — All persons intending to reude io India were, t 

IbeU< 




SELECT COMMITTEE of ths HOUSE OF COMMONS- B63* 

I believe still are, required to enter into one or the other of the covenamts 10 July 1881. 
I have before mentioned. 

2786. What is the present practice with respect to granting certificates of :'*-^^*^*' ^'^' 
residence in India ?*— The same I believe as before ; I know of no alteration 

that has taken place in this respect. 

2787. Does the amount which you have stated for the certificates pay all 
the fees required at the India-House for those indentures ?-^It does. 

2788. If a simple certificate were granted in accordance with the letter 
and spirit of the statute, would not tliat answer the purpose, and save the 
e:xpense of both stamps and fees ? — Yes, it certainly would ; if the covenant 
and bond were not required to be entered into at the India-House there 
would be no occasion for a stamp. 

2789* Did not the East-India Company in their petition to the House of 
Commons in 1813, with reference to the extended resort of British-born 
subjects to India, express their decided opinion that the unrestrained liberty 
of importation from England, otherwise than through the medium of their 
establishments in London, would produce efifects which every well-wisher to 
this country must deprecate, and which would put to extreme hazard any 
pledge on their part fbr the good government of India, or the performance 
of their obligations .^ — They did express themselves in those very terms in 
the report I have now before me, and which I had occasion to quote in the 
early part of this examination. 

2790. According to the best of your knowledge, have any of the fears 
anticipated by the Company from the resort of British-born subjects to India 
been realized ? — I know of no real evil that has resulted therefrom. 

2791. Can you furnish the Committee with any estimate of the number of 
British-born subjects in India, not in the military or regular civil service of 
His Majesty, or of the East-India Company respectively, in the year 1813, 
when the present charter commenced, and up to the latest period ? — The 
following memorandum is extracted from the East-India Calendar, published 
at the India-House, and said to be by authority. Number of private British 
settlers in India respectively in 1813 and in 1830 respectively. 

Bengal: In 1813 - 1,225 In 1830 - 1,707 

Madras : In 1813 - I87 In 1830 - 134 
Bombay : In 1813 - 469 In 1830 - 308 

Total, in 1813 . - 1,881 In 1830 2,149 

Total increase in seventeen years . 268 persons. 

2792. Since 1821 has there been any considerable increase of licenses I^— 
On referring to No. 16, O 23 of Accounts and Papers delivered in to the 
Select Committee, dated 22d of February 1831, I perceive that they have 
greatly exceeded the numbers licensed previous to 1821 ; comparing the last 
eight years up to 1821 inclusive, with the following eight years, the numbers 
in the latter period are nearly doubled. 

3 A 2 2793. Have 



264 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

1!) Jill)- 1831. 279''^. Have you learnt of any inconvenience arising from tliat increased 
number? — None whatever. 



It. Jiickmils. I'.sq 



2794« Were permission given to every British-bom subject to proceed to 
India as they do to Jamaica or Nova Scotia, with unlimited power to invest 
their capital in the soil of that country, in the same manner as individuals do in 
our other colonies in the way most advantageous and profitable in their opi- 
nion ; what class of persons in your opinion would avail themselves of that 
permission to proceed to India? — The most likely persons to proceed to 
India under present circumstances would be capitalists of large or small 
amount, according to circumstances, or persons of talent or knowledge, cal- 
culated to be useful in someone or other industrious pursuit; I believe that 
emigration would be confined to persons of this description, and would not 
extend to persons of a lower class; European labourers, for example, could 
hardly find employment in a climate like that of India. 

2795. Does not India require capital to bring forth her prodnctive re- 
sources? — It certainly does ; but the best and fittest capital for this purpose 
would, in my opinion, be one of native growth. And such a capital would 
certainly be created among tlie natives themselves, if our institutions did not 
obstruct it, by curbing the energies, and confinning, as they now do, the 
poverty of the great mass of inhabitants. 

2790. Would not India derive great advantage from men of talent, and 
science, and art, and men acquainted with European knowledge, proci^eding 
to settle in India more numerously than is now permitted ? — It would un> 
doubtedly ; and some of the natives of India have signified publicly the 
obligations which they already owe tu Europeans of that description. Of 
this I gave sundry proofs in my examination before the Committee of the 
House of Lords, in last year, 10 which I would beg leave now to refer. 

2797. Might not branches of manufacture, now unknown indifferent parts 
of India, be commenced with grent adv-uitage to the prosperity of India, as 
well as to the commerce with England ? — Various new branches of industry, 
iind ni:my new productions, would naturally spring up in India under a dif- 
fi-rcnt stale of things to ihut which exists. A people in a state of confirmed 
and degraded poverty cannot, I apprehend, be roused to energetic habits by 
the mere stimulus of foreign example. On this account, I think that our 
first attention siioutd, as well in common justice, as in policy, be directed to 
the improvement of the state and condition of the natives of that country. 

S798. What would, in your opinion, be the best mode of encouraging the 
production of those native capitals which you think it is most important to 
improve? — Reforming the system of taxation, and abetter administration of 
justice ill India, are the first points to be considered. Without a auiti " 
reform of these systems, the progress of prosperity among the natives 
never be great. 

S799< Since you were acquainted with India, have not many 



branches of ^H 

commeroa ^H 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. S65- 

commerce and manufacture been commenced and carried to a considerable 19 July IHf 
extent j and do you not attribute that commencement solely, or almost _ 7~ 
entirely, to the influence of British capital, and the assistance of British ''"'™^««i 
settlers ? — No doubt many of the improvements here adverted to are to be 
ascribed to British enterprize and capital in India, such, for example, as the 
extension of the cultivation and manufacture of indigo. Other branches of 
manufacture -and of trade have arisen at the different presidencies, where the 
inhabitants are subject to a more lenient sway, and not to so heavy and severe 
a system of taxation as in the interior of India; but I still maintain, that 
any improvement which may have arisen in consequence of the introduction 
of British capital and enterprize into India, is nothing in comjtarison with 
what would be the case if the natives of India were sufficiently encouraged, 
and proper attention paid to their cultivation and Improvements. 

3800. Under an edicient, impartial, and equal administration of justice, 
could any danger arise from the free resort of British-born subjects to Imlia, 
with the most complete liberty to settle and trade, not only with the presi- 
dencies, but with every part of that extensive country ? — No danger, pro- 
vided the taws in force and the administration of them gave complete pro- 
tection to the native inhabitants, whose security and comforts ought, in my 
opinion, to be a primary consideration in this matter. 

3801. Would you, under such an administaation of the laws as is here sup- 
posed, consider it useful or necessary that the local government of India 
should, as at present, be vested with the arbitrjry power of removing British- 
born subjects from India, without assigning any reason for such conduct, or 
virtually without being responsible for the injury which the party removed 
may suffer by such removal? — I think it quite monstrous that such an 
irresponsible power should be vested in the hands of any government 
whatever. 

3803. What, in your opinion, have been the effects of the exercise of this 
arbitrary power, however seldom it may have been used, in preventing that 
extension of trade, which you consider so desirable in that country? — As 
long as the present law is in force, it will naturally deter many respectable 
individuals of talent and capital from extending their operations in India so 
ftr as they otherwise would do if they felt themselves in perfect security. 

3803. Do you mean that capatilists or men of talent have been unwilling 
til employ theii capital, or exercise their talent in situations where they were 
liable to be removed at a few days notice, from the place where such capital 
or talents were employed? — I should suppose that every reflecting mind 
would hesitate on the risk of employing either talents or capital, except with 
great caution, in a country where so severe a law as the one here alluded to 
was liable to be enforced. 

2804. During your residence in India, could any person in the service of 
Hii Majesty, or tiw Eist-India Company* reside within the territories subject 




260 • EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

Ml July 1831. to tlie Bombay presidency without a license from the Company, or in fact, 

, did you ever know any person residing without such license? — Those licenses 

]i. Richards, Esq. ^^^^ alway?, and are still deemed necessary ; and the orders of the Court of 
Directors, during the time 1 was in India, were generally very strict in 
cnusing them to be enforced ; but 1 believe there are instances where gentle- 
men have resided in India perfectly unmolested, without being possessed of 
' such license. 

HSOJ. In your time have you known any person sent from India to Eng- 
land because they have not those licenses ? — There are instances in which 
persons have been sent from India by the governments abroad, because they 
(lid not possess the licenses required by the Court of Directors, and numerous 
other instances where iicttters have been arbitrarily deported on the plea of 
their acts or conduct having proved offensive to the local governments. 

2805. You have expressed an opinion favourable to the resort of British 
Riibjccts to India; what benefit do you consider would accrue to the natives 
of India from the residence among them under the same equal laws of such 
British subjects in the interior, as well as at the presidencies? — Provided the 
natives were fully protected against violence and wrong they would be bene- 
fitted by the expenditure among them of European capital ; by social inter* 
course with Europeans, by acquiring their arts and skilful practices, and by 
imbibing their knowledge, and consequently a more extensive cultivation of 
their moral powers. 

2807. Can you name any one improvement which has been made by the 
natives in your time tliat cannot fairly be traced to the example, or influence, 
of Eiiropeuns? — 1 iiavc already observed, that the improvements introduced 
by Europeans are limited, in comparison with what might be the case if the 
natives of India were suSiciently encouraged ; but in their present state of 
extreme poverty, and almost slavery, it is nut reasonable to expect that any 
great improvements can flow from them. One of the greatest improvements, 
however, which the mind of man \i susceptible of, has been made by natives 
from their own exclusive exertions. Their acquirement of knowledge, and 
particularly of the Eiif^lish language and English literature, of which tliere 
are many examples in Bengal, Madras, and Bombay, at the present moment, 
is qniti' astonishing. It may even be questioned whether so great a prc^resi 
in the attainment of knowledge lias ever been made under like circumstances 
in any of the countries of Europe. 

(?S08. Is nut that limited to those who have had particular intercourse with 
Ktiropeans r — The examples to which I allude, are among natives that have 
kc[>t up an uiiinterriipteil intercourse certainly with Europeans from resid- 
ing at the diffiT>.nt presidencies of India ; but the exertions of those with 
whom I am acquainted, Iiavc been altogether independent of European assis- 
tance, the natives to whom I allude being perfectly self-taught 1 would 
beg leave here to add, that if it be meant to imply, as some of the most di^ 
tinguislied literary authorities in this country have asserted, that the oatifet 

of 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 267* 

of India are incapable of improvement, I must protest against the doctrine, 19 j^iv is3] 
as being, in my humble opinion, an unjust and libellous judgment passed on -^ — 

the whole community. We have at this moment an illustrious example in 2i Rickardn^E 
this country of what native Indians can attain by their own unaided exer- 
tions. Let it also be recollected that in many branches of art their skill is 
absolutely unrivalled. Several of their fabrics, such as muslins shawls, 
embroidered silks, handkerchiefs, &c., together with pieces of workmanship 
in gold, silver, and ivory, have never yet been equalled by British artists. 
Their architecture, though peculiar, is of a superior order, and in the con- 
struction of great public buildings they have exerted powers of moving and 
elevating large masses which are unknown to European architects. Agricul- 
ture also made its first progress, and attained considerable perfection in the 
East, which in this respect, set the example to Europe. In these, and many 
other arts connected with the comforts and conveniences of life, tiic natives 
of India have made great progress in some, and attained perfection in others, 
without being in the smallest degree indebted to Euro|)ean patterns or 
example. I do not mean to say that their progress or advancement has been 
a hundredth part so great or so rapid as that of Europeans in the arts of life 
generally, but I do not think it fair to compare their present backward state 
with the advancement made by Europeans, considering the very different cir- 
cumstances in which both are respectively placed. The nature of the govern- 
ments under which the Indians have languished for so many centuries is suf- 
ficient to account for their stationary state ; and no argtiment can hence be 
drawn as to their natural incapacity. Many persons, I apprehend, who now 
contend for the freest introduction of Europeans into India, to operate as a 
stimulus to native improvement, seem to forget the vast difference of charac- 
ter existing in the two parties ; that, consequently, to overrun India with 
Europeans before a better system of protection shall have been provided, 
would be to mingle a race of over-bearing conquerors with submissive slaves, 
and that oppression and injustice would be the inevitable resnlt. Until the 
natives of India are raised (and I am sure they can be so raised with ^reat 
advantage) to participate largely and actively in the government of them- 
selves, I fieei persuaded that India never will be justly or securely ruled 
under any European sovereignty. 

2809. Can you state any improvements which have been introduced by the 
governments of India? — The governments of India at each of the presiden- 
cies have, very much to their credit, encouraged the improvement of the 
natives by patronizing and supporting institutions for learning and the acquire- 
ment of knowledge. They have also attempted to introduce improvements in 
agriculture and in manufactures ; but in those latter attempts Government, 
by stepping out of their own sphere, have generally, if not invariably, failed. 

2810. What attempts do you immediately allude to in which they have 
failed? — In the cultivation, for example, of sun-hemp, as well in Bengal as 
on the western side of Ineia. I believe their attempts to cultivate indigo on 
their own account have been equally unsuccessful. 

2811. Was 



268- EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

19 .Ink 1831. 2811. Was not the attempt to cultivate sun-hemp in Bengal at the particu- 

lar residencies of the British Government at a time when supplies from the 

n. Idrkardi, h.q. ^J^J.^,, ^jf Europe were likely to be denied daily ?— it was. 

281S. And did it not cease with the renewal of that intercourse which took 
place with the north of Europe? — How far this cause may have influenced 
the cessation I know not ; but I know that as well in Bengal as on the 
the western side of India, the attempt was a complete failure, and attended 
with great loss. On the island of Salsette a plantation of hemp was carried 
on on Govcrntneiit account, and large sums expended on iL The plant 
sectned to flourish, but when cut, and in the process of preparation for use, 
the whole was spoiled, whetlier from ignorance or negligence X know not ; 
but the whole ot'the money expended in this plantation was thus a dead loss, 
and the attempt wus consequently not renewed. 

9813. To what do you attribute that failure? — I attribute it to the same 
causes which occasion similar failures on the part of Government in all 
countries where they attempt to meddle with operations which do not apper> 
tain to their particular province. 

281 1<. Your opinion is, that individual enterprize is best calculated to pro- 
mole improvements of that soit in any country ? — Certainly. 

2815. Are you aware that the natives of Bengal in Oude, at present imi- 
tating European indigo settlers, prepare a considerable portion of that article 
now exported ? — The natives in Oude have got lately into a better mode of 
preparing indigo for this market. This may be occasioned partly, no doubt, 
by the influence and example of Europeans, but in a great measure also, a 
I conceive, by the unsaleable state of the article in this country, which from 
the badness of its quality, and which rendered it indispensably necessary that 
some improvement should take place before it could be brought into more 
general use and consumption, by manufacturers. 

2.SI6. Did the natives ever manufacture any indigo for export 25 or 30 
vears ago, or was it not entirely begun by Europeans ?— Certainly not entirely 
hi'gnn l)y Europeans ; for indigo as a colour was known and used in the East 
from the earliest times, and therefore manufactured as well as exported by 
naiives alone. The gr>.Mt extension of the manufacture of indigo in Bengal 
of Lite years is no douht to be ascribed to British enterprize and capital, out 
oftlie present [)ro(Iuce of the Bengal provinces (exdustve of whnt is produced 
in O.iilc) at luast about 2>>,0(H) chests are actually grown and manufactured 
by natives alone, and consigned by tlicm to other natives in Calcutta. Some 
of the specimens m:tnuf.ictured by natives are lo ihu full ai fine as the most 
bt.'Untifiil products of Enropean factories; but this is not generally the case, 
a fi:w of the native merchants only export this article direct to Europe, Irom 
not lia\in^ corrcspondenti in tiiis country to whom to send it, the greater 
part tlierelbic always passes through the hands of Europeani^ it the eipoitffOg 
mcr-Jiantii. 

9817. An 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 869 ' 

9817. Are the inhabitants of Cakutta, Madras and Dombay, living under '^ J"'} '^ 
the protection of the King's courts, and in daily intercourse with Europeans, „ ... r~~7 
equal or superior in education and intelligence to the mass of British native ^■''«^*<^<"' ^ 
subjects living in the provinces under the exclusive government of the East- 
India Company ? — They are, generally upeaking, a better educated race than 

the inhabitants of the interior, but this I ascribe to their living in much more 
comfortable circumstances than the inhabitants of the interior, and coming 
more habitually into contact with European refinement. Although the 
poverty of the interior unhappily consigns its inhabitants to a state of con- 
firnied degradation, in which improvement, either of their circumstances or 
moral habits, seems equally hopeless, there are still to be found in every 
part of India numerous individuals, whose natural talents and capacity are 
fully equal to the inhabitants of the Presidencies. 

9818. Had the commerce of Calcutta and Bombay been lefl as formerly, 
exclusively to the East-India Company and to the natives, what in your opi- 
nion would at this day have been the condition of the natives of those places? 
— Tlicy would have remained, I conceive, as stationary, or perhaps declin- 
ing, as all countries invariably do which are subject to arbitrary governments 
and monopolies. 

9819. Then the present improved state you attribute principally to the 
opening of the trade with that country ? — I do. 

2830. Have such of the natives of Bombay as came under your observation 
any repugnance to commercial pursuits, or any indisposition to engage in 
external and internal trade, other than what may arise from the want of their 
having sufficient means? — Certainly no repugnance; they are, on the con- 
trary, like all the natives of India I am acquainted with, very much given to 
commercial and industrious pursuits, and exceedingly well quali6ed to suc- 
ceed in them. 

9891. Have they, to your knowledge, evinced any antipathy towards the 
consumption of the useful staple commodities of Great Britain, or of any other 
country? — So far from any antipathy to the use of European commodities, 
those articles are very much coveted in every part of India. 

2899. To what circumstances do you mainly consider it is owing, the slight 
foreign and internal commerce of India in comparison with the extent and 
fertility of the country, and the vast population it possesses? — I ascribe it, 
and always have done, to the extreme poverty of the great mass of the popu- 
lation, chieBy occasioned by the pressure of our fiscal institutions. 

2893. Are you aware that, computing the population of British India with 
the rate of taxation in that country, the amount per head exacted by the 
govemment there does not exceed five or six shillings sterling for each per- 
•00 i and if ao^ do you consider that can produce the poverty of which you 
tnplain? — ^Taking the revenue at £93,000,000, and tlie population at 
1,000,000 to 10(^000^000, thia would not be deemed a large or dispropor- 
3 B tionate 




270- EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

19 July 1831. tionate revenue from a wealthy people living in a comrortable state; but 

when exacted from people who are left, after payment of a revenue based on 

It. KicAardt, hnq. o^e half the gross produce of the soil, and the extortion of perhaps as much 
again by the myriads of ofScers employed in collecting it, but a bare suffi- 
ciency to save themselves and families from famine, it becotnes a burden 
almost too great to be borne. 

38S4. Can you favour the Committee with a brief view of the aattire, 
extent, number, and pressure of the Indian taxes which contribute, in refe- 
rence to their influence, upon the commerce and prosperity of the country ? 
— I have endeavoured to compress into as small a compass as I could an 
intelligible view of the existing system of Indian revenue, but I could not do 
this in less than two volumes ; and as it would be impossible to transfer their 
contents into an examination of this nature, I beg the Committee will allow 
me to refer them to those volumes for the best information 1 can ^ve on the 
subject. 

SS35. Are you notable to point out a few of those which principally re- 
strict and affect the commerce of the country to which the allusion principally 
was : — Where the revvDue is collected as it is in India on the principle of the 
government being entitled to one halfof the gross produce of the soil, and vast 
numbers of officers, whose acts it is impossible to control, are also employed 
in the realization of this revenue, it is a moral impossibility for any people 
whatever to live, or prosper, so as to admit of a very extensive commercial 
intercourse being carried on with them. 

S826. Are those observations which you have made the result of your 
own personal experience, or do you state them as acquired from others? — 
The result of my own personal experience in the provinces in which I 
have served in India, coupled with official information as regards the other 
districts of India, taken from a very valuable collection of papers printed by 
the Court of Directors in four folio volumes, and other official and authentic 
sources. 

2827. Is the revenue levied on fruit-trees, betel, pepper, sugar-cane, 
indigo, and similar productions, a fixed and moderate land-tax, or in the 
nature of an excise in those parts of the territories of Bombay and Madras, 
with which you are acquainted ? — It is anything but a moderate tax ; for, as 
I have shown in the above-mentioned work, it is in all cases exorbitant, and, 
strange to say, in some instances even exceeds the gross produce of the laods 
or plantations on which it is levied. 

'^828. Do you consider it practicable, under such a system as you have 
stated, to manufacture those articles for foreign exportation, and competi- 
tion with other countries ? — It may be done in lands not subject to the afore- 
mentioned exorbitant tax. It may also be the case in Bengal, where the 
permanent settlement has been enforced for maay yean, and where ita 
original ruinous pressure is no longer so severely felt ; but it wohM be quits 
impossible in lands, for example, subject to the Ryotwar tax, or from Undo 

wbwtti 




B.EickardSiEsq. 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 271* 

where fram 45 to 50 per cent, of the gross produce is actually levied as 19 July 18S1. 
revenue. 

S829. You have stated that the tax is equal in some cases to the produce 
of the land ; has land then a saleable value in any part of India where the 
taxes take away the whole of this produce? — I am personally acquainted with 
instances where the revenue assessed upon certain lands has actuaUy exceeded 
the gross produce. I have also known other lands in India where a revenue 
has been assessed as being specifically derivable from rice-lands, plantations 
of fruit-trees, pepper vines, and other articles, and each portion particularly 
described ; but on comparing the assessment with the lands in question, 
those very lands have been found to have been nothing but jungle within 
the memory of man. Land however has a saleable value in those parts of 
India where our revenue systems admit of some rent being derived from the 
land by the landholder or proprietor ; but when the whole rent is absorbed 
by the government tax or revenue, as under Ryotwar or Aumaunee manage- 
ment, the land is of course destitute of saleable value. 

2830. Is the soil and climate in Bombay and Madras suited for the growth 
of sugar and indigo ? — ^Yes. 

S831. Are there any of those articles raised for exportation ? — Indigo is 
raised in the Madras provinces for exportation, and brought to this country. 

S8SS. Is there any in Bombay ? — There was none in my time in Bombay. 

^833. Do you consider the monopoly of salt throughout British India, 
the monopoly of opium, and the monopoly of tobacco in some of the Madras 
provinces, prejudicial or otherwise to the interests of commerce ?•— I consider 
all monopolies bad ; I know of nothing resulting from them but unmixed evil, 
considered in their effects on the community at large. 

2834. Do you consider that the industry of those parts of India, where those 
monopolies exist, would be promoted by their abolition or throwing the 
respective branches of trade open to the inhabitants generally ?— The more 
open and free trade and manufactures can be made, the more we know, from 
experience, they will flourish. 

2835. You are aware that they are sources of revenue to a considerable 
extent, are you able, from your knowledge to state whether, if the monopolies 
were je.moved, they could be made productive to the revenue to the same 
extent ?— It has generally been found that revenue has in the long run in- 
creased from the abolition of monopolies, or of prohibitive or protective duties. 
In the instances alluded to in India it is quite clear that a certain sum of 
revenue is indispensably necessary for the support of the different establish- 
ments kept up in that country, and it would therefore be indispensablv neces- 
sary that every reduction of the different branches of taxation now in force 
should, as I have explained on a former occasion, be gradually and cautiously 
reformed. 

3B2 



272* EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

19 July 18dl. 2896. Would not such a reform, and opening those monopolies, increase 
^ T^.T"^- « the industry and promote the commerce of India?— I am firmly of opinion 
^ ^•**««*' ^-y- that it wouli 

2837- Are transit and market-duties frequent throughout British India ; t^ 

and what effect, in your opinion, is produced upon the internal trade of | 

the country by their existence ? — Transit and market-duties are collected in I 

many parts, and, like all other taxes collected by officers not adequately con- 
trolled, great abuses are practised, and the taxes and abuses together operate 
very injuriously to the internal trade of the country. 

S838, Is it your opinion, that in the present united state of the British 
possessions in India all these transit-duties should be abolished as soon as 
possible ? — It would be a great advantage to India if they were abolished ; 
but as long as the present revenue, judicial, and police systems continue to 
prevail in India, I believe it would be impossible to abolish them altogether. 
It was attempted in Lord Cornwallis*s time, and formed a part of the system 
which he introduced into Bengal in the year 1793 ; but it was found, for 
many years subsequent to the introduction of that system, that natives, some 
in official authority, and others not so, continued to exact duties as hereto- 
fore, and from the little control which we are enabled to exercise over the 
acts and conduct of natives in India, I think it would be impossible, as mat- 
ters now stand, to repress those abuses altogether. 

2839* You have stated that the extension of commerce in India would be ^ 

promoted by a reform in the administration of justice and police; will you 
state what, according to your inquiries and observation, is the present con- 
dition of the administration of justice and police throughout British India? 
— ^This is far too wide a field of inquiry to be compressed into an examina- 
tion like the present; the Court of Directors have, much to their honour^ 
printed several copies of two large folio volumes on this subject, for the use 
of their servants, which volumes contain most useful and detailed information 
upon those heads ; a careful inspection of these volumes will, I think, con- 
vince every impartial mind, that both the police and judicial systems are ill 
adapted to the circumstances and habits of the people. My impression is that 
they may be considered a failure in every part of India ; whence there is 
no part of the general administration more in need than this is of immediate 
reform. 

2840. Under such a system of judicature, police, and taxation as you have 
described, what prospect do you think there is of the inhabitants of British 
India becoming either a wealthy, a prosperous, or a commercial people, and 
of their conducting a trade with this country commensurate with their num- 
bers, and the extent and fertility of the country they occupy ?— None what- 
ever ; the people of India are sufficiently commercial to answer the highest 
expectations that can be formed, or desired, in respect to trade between the 
two countries ; but our local institutions, including the revenue system, must 
be greatly altered or modified before the natives can become wealthy or 

prosperous 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 273 • 

prosperous ; if the coDdition of the natives, Jtheir habits, their wants, their 19 July 1831. 

rights, and their interests, were properly attended to, all the rest would follow 

as a matter of course. * Hickards, Esq. 

2841. Does the answer you have now given apply to the Bombay, Madras, 
and Bengal presidencies, where the nature of settlement varies? — To all. 

2842. Would you make any exception with respect to those parts of India 
where the permanent settlement has been established ? — As regards the 
judicial system, I think no difference exists ; it appears to me to have been a 
failure every where, and to be ill suited to the habits and the wants of the 
natives of India. The revenue system has gradually grown into improvement 
in Bengal, owing in a great measure to the effect produced by the opening 
of the trade, in occasioning increased demand for the production of lands 
on which an unalterable tax had been 6xed. In this way I conceive that 
the opening of the trade to India has greatly conduced to give additional 
value to the lands in Bengal, and to enable those who now possess estates in 
that quarter to obtain a rent for them, and sometimes a high rent, where in 
the first instance there was none at all, or scarcely a sufficiency for a scanty 
subsistence. 

284S. Are you able to state the provinces and parts of India where the 
permanent settlement exists ? — In Bengal chiefly, if not entirely. Many at- 
tempts were made to introduce it into the provinces subject to the Madras 
Y government, but in all without success ; and I do not know whether there is 

any province now under the Madras government in which the permanent 
settlement is in force. 

2844. Can you state the amount of the population where the permanent 
settlement exists? — ^The population of the Bengal provinces has been com- 
puted at somewhere between 20,000,000 and 30,000,000, 1 believe. 

2845. You have stated that under the existing system of judicature^ 
police and taxation, the commerce of India cannot, in your opinion, improve 
in a manner commensurate with the (iertility and population of the country ; 
do you know what opinion Sir Thomas Munro expressed, with reference to 
the natives bearing taxation to a much greater extent than the state required, 
rather than, under the existing laws:, make any complaint against it ? — I am 
aware that Sir Thomas Munro has expressed such an opinion. That opinion 
I conceive to be founded on the present slavish and degraded condition of 
the people who, in many instances, are afraid to complain. The same effect 
is produced, and by the very same causes, in all countries where the revenue 
is so exorbitant, and its exaction so rigorously enforced as it is in India. 
Turkey I take to be an example in point. 

2846* In what manner was the Company's investment of piece-goods fur- 
nished in the Bombay presidency previous to the present charter, as fkr as 
your own personal observation enables you to state ? — In a publication of 
mine in 1814, I gave^ in an Appendix No. 5, an abstract of a series of pro- 
ceedings 



274.^ EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

19 July 18:)]. ceedings connected with the provision of the Company's investment at Surat^ 

taken from the diary of that commercial Factory, and calculated to show by 

li. Hickarda^ Esq. positive facts the necessary consequences of the Company, as sovereigns, 

interfering in the internal trade of their own dominions. To this publication 
I would now beg leave to refer the Committee, inasmuch as the facts therein 
stated are all official, taken from the most authentic sources, and being cer- 
tified by the most zealous advocates of the system, viz. the commercial ser- 
vants themselves, are consequently entitled to greater consideration and 
weight. The Committee will there find that the Surat investment was pro- 
vided under the most rigorous and oppressive system of coercion ; that the 
weavers were compelled to enter into engagements, and to work for the 
Company contrary to their own interests, and of course to their own incii- 
nation, choosing in some instances to pay a heavy fine rather than be com- 
pelled so to work ; that they could get better prices from Dutch, Portu- 
guese, French, and Arab merchants, for inferior goods than the Company 
paid them for standards, or superior goods ; that this led to constant contests 
and quarrels between the agents of the foreign factories and the Company's 
commercial resident, and to evasion and smuggling on the part of the 
weavers, for wiiich on detection they were subject to severe and exemplary 
punishment. That the object of the commercial resident was, as he himself 
observed, to establish and maintain that complete monopoly which the Com- 
pany had so sanguinely in view of the whole of the piece-goods trade of this 
settlement at reduced or prescribed prices; that in the prosecution of this 
object compulsory punishments were carried to such a height as to induce 
several weavers to quit the possession, to prevent which, they were not 
allowed to enlist as sepoys in the regular battalions, or even on one occa- 
sion to pass out of the city without permission from the English chief; that 
so long as the weavers were the subjects of the Nabob, who was but a 
tool in the hands of the British government, frequent application was made 
to him to punish and coerce weavers for what was called refractory conduct ; 
and when severity was exercised towards them, the Nabob was desired to 
make it apfiear as the voluntary act of his own government, and to have no 
connection with the Company, or their interests, lest it should excite ill-will 
and complaint against the British government ; that to monopolise the piece- 
goods trade for the Company at low rates, it was a systematic object with 
the resident to keep the weavers always under advance from the Company to 
prevent their engajzing with other traders, while neighbouring princes were 
also prevailed on to give orders, in their districts, that the Company's mer- 
chants and brokers should have a preference to all others, and that on no 
account should piece-goods be sold to other persons ; that subsequent to the 
transfer of Surat to the British government, the authority of the Adawlut, 
our own Court of Justice, was constantly interposed to enforce those met* 
sures. These and other acts, compulsive, oppressive and unjust to the weavers^ 
are recorded at full length in the Surat Commercial Diary, extending in the 
abstract alluded to from 1796 to 1811, and no doubt the same or aimilar 

practices 



SELECT COMMITTEE of tm HOUSE OP COMMONS. «75* 

practices existed eUewhere> for the eysteni, and not tlie individuals, were 19 Juiv issi 

most to blame in this matter. This, Indeed, is the impression I would wish ~ — 

to convey to the Committee in giving these details. Although A. 6. may be ^- ^'f^ff^'>, f. 

recorded to have committed these acts, it is but too probable that C. D. would 

have done the same under the same circumstauces. A commercial resident, 

anxious to promote the Company's interests, or dreading the consequences 

of disappointment in completing the Company's investment, naturally desires 

to secure in its favour all the advantages which power can give it. To this 

end arbitrary and oppressive acts are secretly encouraged, or connived at, till 

the commission of them comes to be considered a zealous performance of 

official duty, and this must ever be the case where power and commercial 

dealings are committed to the same hands. 

SS*?- Have not those practices which you have now stated been done 
awav with in most parts of India? — This was the practice when I quitted 
India in 1811 ; I have understood that sundry regulations have been passed 
since that period for correcting this system of providing the Company's 
investment, but I do not believe that those regulations ever have been or can 
be effectual as long as the present system of power and commerce united 
exists. 

2848. Are you aware that the Company has not for years had any invest- 
ment from Siirat, or that part of the country? — I »]luile to other places as 
well as Surut, when I speak of the general mode of providing the Company's 
investments in India. 

2849. You are aware that the Company, when they objected to the free 
trade being carried on, alleged that the inhabitants of India would be ruined 
hy the want of the Company's employment in the various commercial 
branches witere they were used ? — It has been so alleged. 

9850. Can you state whether the allegation that the native inhabitants of 
India have suffered from the loss of the Company's trade is well founded or 
not ? — On the contrary, the community at large would considerably gain by 
the withdrawal of the Company from all branches of trade. 

9&5I. Have they not in every branch where the Company have ceased to 
trade been comparatively free from that oppression which you have stated to 
have existed ? — They certainly have. The Company would also be great 
gainers by the entire abolition of their own trade ; for whilst they would gain 
as sovereigns, they would also be saved from those heavy losses which are 
inseparable from their present commercial operations. 

S85tf. Can you state what opinion the Marquis of Weltesley expressed in 
aaolBcial despatch of 1804 on the subject of the Company's carrying on 
tiade in piece goods and others, in Bengal, soon afler his arrival there?— 
In a letter from the Governor-General in Council to the Government of 
Madras, dated the 19th of July 1804, Paras. 44 to 46, it is sUted that the 

government 




/■*. HHhirdf,!:.-!!. 



276 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

19 JhIv 1831. government of Madras and Bombay during the last Charter prohibited Bri- 
tish merchants from trading to Europe in piece-goods unless such merchants 
consented tliat their goods should be provided by the commercial agents of 
tlie Company ; and the Government-General on that occasion denounced 
such stipulations as being equivalent to a prohibition of the trade. 

2853. Comparing the effects of that system which you have now alluded 
to of providing the Company's investment with the inconvenience.; which 
may have resulted from the importation of British cotton manufactures, which 
arc joii tUsposed to consider as acting most prejudicially on the interests of 
the Indian urttzan ? — Tlie Government-General in the letter before quoted 
refer to various acts of rigour and oppression which were tlien habitually 
practised upon the weavers by the officers of Government, of the same kind 
with those 1 have already described in the provision of the Surat investment, 
and those acts are denounced in very strong language as injurious to the 
community at large, the interests of the Company themselves, and very 
inconsistent with the means of promoting the general prosperity of the coun- 
try. The provision tliercfore of the Company's investment in the manner 
described in that letter must be considered, and is accordingly denounced in 
the letter itself as an enormous evil. The introduction of cheap British 
uianui'actures into India I take to be a positive good ; the two cases in my 
opinion do not admit of comparison. 

^8^4. Is it not true that the great staple manufacture every where must be 
ol' domestic production, and not foreign ; and applying this principle to 
India, is there any risk that British cotton fabrics will ever supersede the 
coarse cottons of that country, wiiich constitute in fact the main consump- 
tion of that people ■ — Although many articles of British manufacture aie 
now imported into India at a far less cost than the same, or corresponding 
articles, can be produccil in the country itself, it is quite clear that they have 
nut altogether superseded, and probably never will supersede, the use of 
coarse cotton articles manufactured in India by (he natives themselves. 
There is one very strong proof oi' this in the large quantity of cotton-yarn 
twist which is now exported from this country to India for the purpose of 
manufacture on the spot, and is altogether a new article of trade i but as 
regards coarse gooils manufactured in Bengal, I believe it will be found, on 
reference to official returns, that certainly as large, if not greater quantities 
than ever of these goods are now exported to the Kastem Archipelago, (the 
chief market for them), whence it is clear that the manufacture has not been 
su|)erseded. 

Q,%55. In (he event of the British government of India being relieved from 
all their commercial functions, do you anticipate any inconvenience in the 
operation of remitting the territorial revenue to England for political and 
military payments? — ^None whatever, as I have almdy explained in the 
evidence 1 ga%'e to the Committee last year. 

28dG. Do you know the amount of the payment* made in Enj^and on aa 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS- 9rjV 

average of years?*— I coold state the average for the last twenty years from I^ July 1®^*- 
one df the statements which is upon the table of the Committee if I had it ^ p. TZL v 
before me ; the amount has greatly increased of late years, and accohlihg to ^^^'"^^f •?• 
that statement, it now amounts, if I recollect right, to between two and three 
millions annually. 

4857* In what manner would you propose, under such circumstances, 
that the territorial revenue should be remitted? — It might be remitted in 
good bills without any inconvenience, and with perfect security for their 
payment in this country. 

^858. Comparatively speaking, do you anticipate any greater difficulty in 
remitting revenue from India to England to meet all those payments than 
there now exists in remitting the Scotch and Irish revenue to the English 
Exchequer? — The one maybe remitted with as much ease and security as 
the other ; there is no difficulty in making remittances from one country to 
another where the commercial intercourse is free. This is the case between 
all the countries of Europe, and with America ; and I can see no reason why 
the same facilities might not exist in the commercial intercourse between 
India and England. 

2859* At the present time, you consider that there are certain impedi- 
ments to the commerce between England and India ? — I do. 

2860. If the money requisite for those payments can now be remitted under 
those restrictious, would it not be easier to remit it if the trade was free, and 
carried on to a greater extent ? — Certainly. 

JwiSj 2V die Juliiy 1831. 



Sir JTamss Macdonald, Bart, in the Chair. 



T. LangtoUj Esq, 



THOMAS LANGTON, Esq. called in, and examined. 

S86l. YotJ are a merchant at Liverpool, and have received a regular mer- 21 July 1881. 
cantile education ? — I have j I have been all my life engaged in commercial 
pursuits. 

2862. Have you recently given particular attention to the financial ac- 
counts of the Easfc-India Company ? — I have ; I was last year upon the depu- 
tation from Liverpool here, to oppose the renewal of the charter, at the time 
when Mr. Melvill was examined upon the 7th of June 1830 ; and I was re- 
quested by those with whom I acted to compare those statements with tlie 
accounts, with the view of ascertaining how far those statements might 
might not be implicitly relied upon. 

3 C 2863. How 



«78 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 July 1831. 286s. How far back have you carried your retrospect of the Company's 

, accounts, and will you state to the Committee the grounds on which you have 

T. l.mgkM, Esq. pupguej thatioquiryP—I have gone back to the year 17().5, the period of the 
acquisition of the Dewannee, to which Mr. Melvill's preliminary obtervatiom 
extend. Mr. Melviit, before entering on the comparative statement of the 
fiDaoctal results of the Company's affairs during the present charter, for which 
he had been called on in question 5671, considers it desirable previously to 
place before the Committee, in as clear a point of view as he can, the position 
of the Company in respect of the two branches of their affairs at the close of 
the last charter ; and he adds, that it is obviously important that the Com- 
mittee should see that the commercial capital of the Company rests on h solid 
basis, and that the debt of the East-India Company had its origin entirely in 
territorial causes. The propriety of adopting such a course, and the inutilit/ 
of any inquiry into the result of the transactions since 1814, till a well ascer- 
tained point of departure had been first obtained, was so obvious, that my at- 
tention has been principally directed to examine in bow far Mr. Melvill has 
succeeded in establishing the relative situation of tlie two branches at the 
commencement of the present charter on just and admissible grounds. 

SS64'. Are the Committee to consider the data from which you ckaw the 
conclusions you are about to state to be taken from official documents?— 
Yes. 

S865. As you have well considered Mr. Melvill's evidence, what is the 
result which you consider he brings out, and how far does it accord witli that 
result which, after the deliberate examination you have made, you now are 
prepared to state? — Mr, Melvill states to the Committee, in answer to que$> 
tion 5671, that if the accounts had been separated previously to 1814, accord- 
ing to the plan laid before Parliament in I8I6, a balance of £13,044,934 
would have been due at the close of 1814, from the territorial to the commer- 
cial branch. It must be obvious to the Committee that from such data as are 
afforded by the accounts laid before Parliament by the East-India Company, 
no such precise balance can be deduced as would be expected between in- 
dividuals responsible to each other for correct statements of their transac- 
tions; an approximative result is all that can be attempted, and when the 
Committee shall have heard that which I have endeavoured to deduce, and 
the grounds on which it is founded, it will be for them to decide whether that, 
or the very different one which Mr. Melvill present^ makes the nearest ap- 
proach to the actual relative situation of the two branches. 

Q8C)6. Can you state upon what principle Mr. Melvill has proceeded in 
arriving at his results? — Mr. Melvill divides the time from die 6nx acquiai- 
sition of the Dewannee to the commeocemeoi of the preieK cbarter into 
three stages, and he particularizes the propartioD «f tfae baluce viiicfa be 
states to be due to the commerce incurred in eacb ; that ii^ (nm 17fi9 to 
178O, from 1780 to 1793. and from 1793 to 1514. 

Q8&J. With respect to the first period, how does Ifr. MokiN pneoed^— 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS- 979 

Concerning the first period he says in his rq>ly : ^ In the year I78I there 21 July 1881. 
was laid before Parliament a statement framed by a committee of EttSt^fitidii "-'^ 

proprietoniy for the purpose of showing what part of the Company^^ oMi* ^' ^'^^•V*^ ^. 
mercial funds had been expended in the wars^ which preceded the acqiiiai* 
tion of the Dewannee : that account, which can be exhibited in detail, showed 
that the charge incurred by the Company in those wars, in excess of the sums 
afterwards derived from the territorial revenues, amounted, exclusively of any 
charge of interest, to £3,6l6,000." 

2868. Have you examined that paper, and what is its date ? — I have in 
vain sought for such a paper amongst those presented to Parliament in I78I, 
but I found one, presented on the 26th and dated the 16th of May 1783, 
which corresponds so nearly with Mr. Melvill's description, that I have no 
doubt it is that he refers to, and the date in his answer is probably an error of 
his or the printer's. 

2869* Have you found that paper and examined it ?-^I have consulted it in 
the Journal-ofiice, it is in Press 22, Bundle 16| No. 202. The only details which 
it exhibits are, that on a comparison of the funds, cargoes, &c. sent to Indis^ 
with the cargoes, &c, returned to England frofla thence, between the year 
1730 and the year 1745, it appears that £l^l8i|440 had renuiined in India 
during those years for the roaiotenaoce of the Company's settlements in 
India, more than the revenues collected in the several provinces produced 
during that time} that upon a similar comparison between the years 17^9 
and 1764, £6,888,124 had remained there; that deducting from this latter 
sum the amount which had remained there during the former period, it leaves 
£5,069i684, which they infer must have been sp^nt in the prose^ntion of the 
wars with the native princes, which terminated in thegrant of the Dewannee. 

2870. Do the proprietors of East-India stock claim the £5,069,684 
afllegeil by them to have been expended from their commercial funds in those 
warsv as a debt due to the commerce from territory ?--^They merely state the 
amount thus expended in the wars, the success of which bad kfd to the terri- 
torial acquisitrons ; stating that that sum, having been evidently supplied 
from the credit of the trade, ought surely to be reimbursed to the proprietors 
before any claim of participation had been admitted on the part of the State. 

2^1. Is the paper or statement of the proprietors of East- India stock 
alluded to accompanied by any vouchers or details, to enable you to ascertain 
of what items the debtor and creditor side of that account had been made 
up?-^There are no vouchers referred to. 

2872. How are the sums aflerwards derived from the territorial revenue ' 
ascertained? — Another paper presented by the committee of proprietors, and 
which I have also obtained from the JournaUoffice, Press 22, Bundle I6, 
No. 202, and signed ^'Samuei Ntcoll, Accountant, EastJndia House,*' 
shows a balance, on comparison of the goods, stores, bullion, &c. sent to India 
and Chtna from 1764 to 1777* ^th those received from thence between 1766 

3 C 2 and 



380 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 

2\ July ISSl. 1779, of £3,622,969f which is therefore stated as the sum realized inEng- 
land from the revenues, 

' 2873. Is this paper accompanied by any vouchers or details ? — There is a 

similar want of all reference to vouchers. 

2874. Had you, at the Journal-office, access to all the papers presented on 
that day to the House ? — I examined the whole of them ; they are twenty in 
number, but these are the only ones which appeared to me important to the 
question before the Committee. 

2875. Do any of the remaining seventeen purport to be vouchers or 
explanatory statements of the items of those you now produce? — No. 

2876. Were there no Parliamentary documents of authority, to which the 
Company's auditor-general might have had recourse, for the purpose of 
proving that the commercial capital of the East-India Company rested on a 
solid basis, and that the debt of India had its origin entirely in territorial 
causes?— There were accounts prepared by the Company's accountant- 
general and laid before the Committees of Secrecy of the House of Commons 
in 1773 and 1782, which I suppose will be considered documents of higher 
authority than those which have just been exhibited to the Committee : from 
those accounts, which are plain, straight-forward, and intelligible compared 
with those furnished to Parliament since that period, it appears, that between 
IjGO'G and 1778-9 the Company's commercial branch had drawn from the 
territorial revenues the sum of £6,115,979 ; this is independent of many con- 
stant and heavy outgoings which had previously been borne by the com* 
meice, but from which, on the grant of the Dewannee, it seems to have been 
instantaneously relieved. 

2877. I^^ the documents to which you have last referred appear in the 
Report of the Secret Committees in 1773 and 1782.^ — Yes, they do. 

2878. Assuming for the present, that the sum stated by the proprietors to 
have been drawn from the revenues was correct, will the comparison of that 
sum, with the amount stated by them to have been spent in the wars, give 
the result which Mr. Melvill has stated to the Committee? — The sum of 
£3,622,9699 stated by the committee of proprietors as derived from the ter* 
ritorial revenues, when deducted from the sum of £5,069|684, the amount 
stated as spent in the wars, leaves only £1,446,715, and not £3,6l6,00Q» 
stated by Mr. Melvill as the excess of expenditure above the sums derived 
from the revenue. 

2879. Then even assuming what you presume to be the same data, you 
draw a different result?— Yes. 

2880. Are y ouable to account in any way for this difference ?— It appears, 
from another paper presented by the committee of proprietors upon the same 
day, that durmg those fourteen years £2,l69tS99 bad been paid into the 
Exchequer, in participation of the Bengal surplus revenue, in pursuance of 
agreements recorded in the Acts of the 7th Gteo.9^ c. 579 ^nd the 9th Gea S. 

0.24^ 



T, 



SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OF COMMONS. 381 

c. 34, by which the Company were allowed to remain in posBMsloa of 31 July 
the territories and revenues for seven years, in comideratioB of annual 
payments of £400,000 during that time. On account of these payments, 
the £2,169,399 before mentioned was paid at difierent times, and thia 
sum added to the £1,446,715 spent in the wan, in excess of the sums 
aflerwards derived from the territorial revenues, will make up the sum 
of £3,616,114, which so nearly agrees with that stated by Mr. Melvill as 
due from the territory to commerce, that I presume it will afford the real 
explanation of the dimrence ; but as Mr. Melvill does not mention or allude 
to this paper, and as it appears to me that it would be unjust to chiim as a 
debt from the territory the amount paid to Government for the permission to 
appropriate the surplus territorial revenue, this difference may posnbly be 
otherwise explained by Mr. Melvill. 

2881. Have the goodness to look at the three Accounts to which you havci 
now been referring. 

{^The taid Accounti were read, and are as ^Ihw :} 



STATKHEim 







EVIDENCE ON EASTJNDIA AFFAIRS 



2! July 18»1. 
T. Lfrrgfgrr^ Esq. 



STATEM^TS to %\iWi fhe Expeises of tbe Wabs atict HoeriuTilBs ia hulia 

of tkc I>ewanMe9 of Bengal, BnlMur, aad 



A SrATKMEBrr of the Co^ of !be Goods tnd Stores export^ fro» Englatidy of tho 
from Abroad, anif of the fVoflts ftristhigf oo tbe Sale of Europe Goods aad Stores ia 
Cargoes for the correiipoading^ \ewc^^ in order to show whac tbe Rettarns fett short of 
Disturbances m f lufiu with the iiuthre Prince:*, md wheff the Etttl-liiriio Cowpoojr's 



From 

Sept. 1730 
to 

Sept. 1745 ; 

15 Years. 



To the cost iu Elugland of the coods, stores, and' 
buHfon exportedto India and CMim, the amoiiftC 
paid for bills of exchange drawn on the Oi- 
rectorh, and the charges paid for raising recruits 
&c. in the course of the fifteen years; together 
with the profit (amounting tu about £850,000) 
arii^ing from the sale of Europe goods and 
stores abroad ••••••• ••• «.. 



13,152,966 



13,152,966 



\ 






EVIDENCE ON EAST4ND1A AFFAIRS 



21 July 18»1. 
T. Lnrgf^rr^ Esq. 



STATEM^'ra Xo Aiwr the Expeises of tbe Wabs atict HoftTiuTilBs ia iodia 

of tkc I>ewanMe9 of Bengal, ButiMr, aad 



A SrATKME5rr of tb« Co^ of !be Goods tnd Stores exfiorUil fro» Englatidy of ihe 
froui Abroad, anif of Cfae fVoiiCs aristhigf oo the Sale of Europe Goods aad Stores ia 
Cargoes for the corrcispoading^ Yeirr.<, in orrfer to show whac tbe Rettarns fett short of 
rKstiirbances m f luria with the iiathre Princeii, and when die Etttt-lndio CowpM^r's 



From 

Sept. 1730 
to 

Sept. 1745 ; 

15 Years. 



To the cost iu Elugland of the coods, stores, and' 
buHfon exporteato India and CMmr, the anrounC 
paid for bills of exchange drawn on the Oi- 
rectorh, and the charges paid for raising recruits 
&c. in the course of the fifteen years; together 
with the profit (amounting tu about £850,000) 
arii^ing from the sale of Europe goods and 
stores abroad. • ••• «•• 



13,152,966 



t 



13.152,966 



SELECT COMMITTEE or the HOUSE OP COMMONS. S88 



21 My 



fiiistained out of tbe CoDipauyV Trading Stock, previous (o the obtaiuing the GrauU 
Oii»«a, aiul the Five Northern Circars, in the Year 1765. 



MiHtary Charges, &c. paid at Home, of the Bills of Exchao^ dmwB on the Directors 
India and China, from 1730 to 17^5, contrasted with the Invoice Cost of tbe returning 
the above Sums disbursed from hence, at a period prior to any of those Disputes or 
Concerns in India were confined solely to Commerce. 



From 
March 1732 

to 

March 1747; 

15 Years. 



By the Amount of investmeulsiaiported into Eag- 
famd from India and China ta tbe fifteen years, 
reckoning from the arrtmk in 17S2 d^Mro to 
those that came hone mi 17^6 ; these, aeeoid- 
fang to tbe inroiceis cmroe to ...< 



•«•••••• 



••••• 



By Balance, being tbe amount which India and % 
China returned U> England short of the sums I 
furnished and disbursed by England for the su|)« \ 
port of the several settlements, including the | 
|>rofits on the outward trade, amounting to J 



£. 



II334,S98 



1,818,440 



13,152,968 



j\7'o/e.— The £1,818,440, the Balance above, shows the amount expended 
in the space of fifteen years, for the maintenance of the Company's settle* 
wents in Indi*i, more than the revenues collected in the several presidencies 
produced daring that term; equal, on the general average, to «fl21, 229 a 
year. 




384 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



2lJulyU61. 
T. LangUmy Esq. 



STATEMENTS to show the Expenses of the Wars ami HosTiLmiss in India 

of the Dewannees o^BengaV, Bahar, md 



A Statembnt made out to show the Sums expended in India from the Treasury in 
Years, from 1751 to 1766, to support the Wars carried on in Indfa Against the Nati^ 
expended in the space of the above fifteen Years, when the Company's Transactions 



From 
Sept. 1749 

to 

Sept 1764 ; 

15 Years. 



To the cost in England of tlie goods, stores^ and * 
bullion sent to India and China, the amount 
paid for bills of exchange drawn on the Di- 
rectors, and the expenses incurred for raising 
and transporting troops, and some other dis- v 
bursements not relating to commerce. These ( 
several, articles, including the profit, amounting 
to about £1,500,000, arising from the sale of 
Europe goods and stores abroad, came to, in 
the fifteen years ...».• • ...•.^ 



19,051,071 



19,051,071 



The average amount of the expenses incurred in the fifteen years, more than 
England, and from the profits of the Outward Trade, came to £459,000 

From whence deducting £121,229 for each year, being the average 

Trade, which, for the 



shows the amount expended to carry on the wars against the native pi'inces, 
and that sum having been evidently supplied from the credit of the trade> 
tion, had been admitted on the part of the State. 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 885 



21 July 18S1. 
T. homgkm^ JSsq. 



sustaiDed out of the Company's Trading Stock, previous to the obtaining the Grants 
Orissa, and the Five Northern Circars, in the Year 1765,— conttitu^cf. 



England, and from the Profits arising from the Outward Trade, in the space of fifteen 
Princes, by comparing the Demands for those fifteen Years' Warfare with the Sums 
were merely commercial. 



From 
March 1751 

to 

March 1766 ; 

15 Years- 



By the Amount returned to Eng- 
land from India and China in 
goodSy in the space of fifteen years, 
reckoning from the cargoes which 
arrived in 1751 to those which ar- 
rived in 1765 inclusive ; these se- 
veral investments were invoiced 
at ••• 

Add to this the sums paid in dif- 
ferent years by Government 
in lieu of forces withdrawn 
from India 



£. 



12,043,746 



119,202 



By Balance, being the aniount which India and 
China returned to England short of the sums 
furnished and disbursed by England for the 
support of the several settlements, including the 
profit arising from the sale of Europe ffoods 
and stores abroad; came to, for the nfteen 
years • ..••••• • 



£ 



£. 



12,162,947 



6,888,124 



19,051,071 



the amount of the revenues, and taken from the Treasury in 1 
for each year; equal, for the fifteen years, to •••••••• / 

amount of the commercial drain on England and its Outward 1 
fifteen years, came to .../ 

The remainder • 



^6^888,124 
1,818,440 



^5,060,684 



and from the success of which wars the territorial acquisitions were acquired; 
ought surely to be reimbursed to the proprietors before any claim of participa* 



SD 



386 



EVIDENCE ON E ASTJNDI A AFFAIRS : 



2lJuly 1831. 
T.LangUm^ Esq. 



A STATEMENT to show the Amount realized in England 



From 
Sept. 1/64 ; 

Sept. 1/78; 
14 Years. 



To the cost in England of the goods, stores and 
bullion sent to India and China ; with the ex- 
pense of raising and transporting troops for the 
defence of the territories, with other charges 
(not relating to commerce) paid here, from the 
Season 1/64 to the Season 1777i 
both included ; these several 
heads came to • • 



The bills of exchange drawn from 
India and China on the Direc- 
tors, from the Season 1763 to the 
Season 1778> both inclusive—— 

The profits arising in fourteen 
years from the sale of Europe 
goods and stores abroad, the last 
year by estimate; and applied to 
the purchase of the investments 
for Europe •• 



9,990,439 



6,996,015 



1,140,424 



Balance ; being what the above articles are short 
of the amount of the investments, and is there- 
fore the sum realized in England from the reve- 
nues 



18,126,878 



3,622,969 



21,749,847 



N. B. The sum of ii^3,622,969 realized from the revenues in fourteen 



Errors excepted. 



• • 







,-:.«'. 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 387 



from the Territories and Revenues obtained in India. 



From 
March 1766 

to 

March 1780 ; 

14 Years. 



By the amount returned to England from India 
and China in the space of fourteen vears^ recl^on- 
ingfroro the arrivals in 1766 to the arrivals in 
I7/% both included: these several investments, 
according to their invoices, cost 
the sum of 



Received in the Season 177^ of 
Government, on account of the 
Manillas 



£21,721)664 



28,193 



The above fourteen years' imports were brought 
to market, and sold in fourteen years and a half, 
or to their full amount. 



21 July 1881. 
T. Langttm^ Esq. 




years and a half, is nearly equal to seven per cent per annum on the capital. 



East- India House, i 
16th May 1783, / 



SamU£l Nicoll, 
Accountant. 



dD2 



388 



EVIDENCE ON EAST.INDIA AFFAIRS 



21 July 1831. AN ACCOUNT of the Monies paid Government, in consequence of Agreement 
„, _, with the Company concerning the Territorial Possessions in India. 



} 



} 



1768. 24th March, being the 1st half-yearly payment, per Agree- 

ment •••••••...••• ••• 

2SthSept 2d ditto 

1769. 23d March 3d ditto 

28ih Sept 4th ditto 

17/0. 24th March, being the 1st half-yearly payment, per fur- 
ther Agreement ••••••••• •• 

28th Sept 2d ditto 

1771. 23d March 3d ditto 

28th Sept 4th ditto 

1772. 24th March 5th ditto 

1773. Paid in exchequer bills out of loan of £1,400,000 per Actl 

of Parliament 1st July 1773> which was payable 29th > 

Sept. 1772 ) 

Ditto, beint; part of the last payment per Agreement I 

payable 25th March 17/3 | 

1775' 13th Jan., being the remainder of the last payment perl 
Agreement, and which was payable 25th March 1773 J 



£ 



East-ludia Hou!Je, 7 
16th May 1783. i 



(Errors excepted.) 



£. 

200,000 

200,000 
200,000 
200,000 

200,000 

200,000 
200,000 
200,000 
200,000 



9. d. 





















200,000 

53,779 3 5i 
115,619 14 9 



2,169,398 18 2^ 



SaMCJEL NlCOLL, 

Accountant. 



[These Accounts^ after being printed in the Evidence^ were taken out and 

restored to their place.] 



2882. Does it appear that in any of those accounts you have examined, 
there is any interest-account kept of the advances between territory and 
commerce, during the period to which that account relates? — None what* 
ever ; there is no distinction made between the branches, though a distinc* 
tion is very easily drawn from them as prepared up to 1778-79 i but no in- 
terest-accoimt from the one branch to the other appears to have been at all 
entered upon during this period. 

288:3. Does there appear to be any interest-account previous to that 
period ? — None whatever. 

288k May not that interest-account, therefore, if such has been kept, 
perliaps account for the difference which you see in the statement of Mr. 
Melvill ? — I think at that period no distinction was made between the two 
branches; and the idea or an interest-account between the two was never 
entertained. 

2885. If 



SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 389 

S885. If the amount which you deduce from the accounts laid before the 21 Jnly ) 

Secret Committees to have been derived by the commerce from the territo- 

rial revenues be taken as the more correct, what will then appear to be the ^^ongton 
balance between the commerce and the territory at the close of the first 
period?— Thi amount of aid to the commerce from the territorial reve- 
nues during this period, drawn from these accounts, varies considerably, 
according as the supplies to Bencoolen and the charges of St. Helena are 
included in, or lefl out of the account ; but I take them in the most favour- 
able way for commerce, and adding to the £Q^\\5^Q^% which they exhibit 
as the balance of aid to the commerce, the sums from the payment of which 
the commerce was relieved on the acquisition of the Dewannee, by their 
immediate transfer as a charge upon the territorial revenues, it cannot, I think, 
be doubted, that the Company was not only fully reimbursed for all the 
money spent in the wars between 1749 and I764 (the greatest part of which 
had no apparent connexion with the subsequent acquisitions in Bengal), but 
that a large amount in excess of their outlay must have been added to their 
commercial funds out of the Indian territorial revenue. 

2886. Are the Committee to understand, that prior to the accession of the 
Dewannee to the Company the expenses for maintaining; Bencoolen and St. 
Helena were charged on the commercial branch ?— There was no other 
source from which they could be defrayed. 

2887. Then are the Committee to understand, that from the acquisition of 
the Dewannee, although those places had been previously kept up for the 
support of trade, the expenses of those establishments were immediately 
transferred from commerce to territory, and that in this way you consider 
the expenses which commerce had paid to territory have been more than 
repaid? — That is the ground upon which I make that remark. Those 
expenses had always previously been borne by the commerce ; there was no 
other source from which they could be borne ; the same may be observed of 
the establishments at Bombay, and even at Madras ; but these also, upon 
the acquisition of the Dewannee, were immediately from that time, and per- 
haps very properly, considered as territorial charges, but they were, at the 
time when they occurred, an immediate relief to the commerce. 

2888. Do you know the exact annual amount of the expenses for Ben- 
coolen and St. Helena the year before they were transferred to the territorial 
charges? — No, I do not recollect it ; but as nearly as I recollect, the whole 
of the charges of St. Helena from 1765 to 1788-9, amounted to about 
£140,000, that is, about £10,000 a year, and the supplies to Bencoolen 
considerably more ; what the establishment there was, I have no means 
of judging, because it is combined with the funds supplied to that place 
for the purposes of trade. 

2889. Have you any other observations to offer to the Committee in refer- 
ence to this period ? — I have with reference to the debt with which the ter- 
ritory is charged, and of which Mr. Melvill states it to be important that the 

, Committee 



890 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 Jaly 183L Committee should see that it had its origin entirely in territorial causes. Fiom 

the accoonts laid before the Committee of Secrecy in 1789, it appears that at 

l.Langton, Esq. ^j,g ^]^^ of 1780, or to be more particular, on the Slst of October 1780, for 

Bengal, on the 30th of November 1780 for Madras^ and on the 27th of May 
1781 for Bombay, the Company's bond debt in India amounted to £1,790,626, 
It appears also that the amount by which it had been increased since 1765 
was about £1,229,239 ; the difference therefore of £561,887 must have been 
its amount at the time of the acquisition of the Dewannee, when the only 
security to the holders of the bonds was the commercial assets of the CoyDipany» 
This seems scarcely consistent with Mr. MelvilPs view of the debt having 
had its origin entirely in territorial causes. I would further observe that, 
admitting the Company to be entitled to appropriate .to their own use the 
surplus territorial revenue, yet every expense attending the government and 
administration of the country should have been fully provided for, before the 
residue of the revenue could be taken as surplus ; if, therefore, the Company 
so anticipated that surplus, that it became necessary to borrow money to 
defray the current expenses of the government, such loan can only be con-> 
sidered a commercial loan ; the whole debt therefore at the close of 1780, a 
well that owing before the acquisition of the territory as that taken from the 
revenues beyond the amount of disposable surplus, and replaced by loan, 
must be considered as a commercial debt; and if, from that time to the 
close of 1828, the territory had been relieved from the payment of the inte- 
rest on that debt, all other payments and receipts remaining the same, the 
territory would have been upwards of £52,000,000 richer ; it would not 
have had a shilling of debt, and would have bad £10^000,000 sterling more 
in its coffers than it has at present. 

2890. By bond debt do you mean the debts bearing interest in India ?— 
Yes. 

2891. You have alluded to the 7th and 9th of Geo. 3, by which the Com- 
pany were allowed to retain the possession of the revenues of India on con- 
dition of paying a certain annual sum, and you have stated, from the papers 
delivered in, certain payments made therefrom ; do you not understand by 
reference to those accounts that proposals were made by the East-India Com- 
pany, in the preamble of the 9th of Geo* 3, to pay the annual sum of 
£400,000 as part of the surplus revenues of India, for the term of five years? 
— It appears that they were to pay that sum as a condition for their being 
allowed to hold the territories and to receive the revenues. 

2892. Have you been able to see those proposals alluded to in. the pre- 
amble of the statute ? — ^No. 

2893. Did those payments under the 7th and 9th Geo. 3, continue to be 
paid for the full period that the Act required ?-^No ; it appears that the 
Company were in pecuniary difficulties, and were released from completing 
the arrangement of the payment of this up to the termination of the five years, 
to which the latter Act relates; but it does not follow, because they may have 
been in difficulties in this country, that they did not draw from the revenues 

of 



i 




SELECT COMMITTEE op the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 391 

of India the sums mentioned. I have drawn out an account from those papers si July 183 

presented to the Committee of Secrecy, which I think shows the aid derived 

by the commerce from the territory during that period. '^- ^^angtimj t 

3894. Have you any other grounds for supposing that there was a surplus 
of territorial revenue in the years to which you have alluded, except the fact 
of the payments having been made by the Company to the Government, as 
described by the 7th and 9th Geo. 3. ?— Those payments might lead to the 
inference that there had been such a surplus, but they could never have shown 
what the amount of that surplus was. It is from the accounts delivered in to 
the Committee of Secrecy from the year IjGS to 177^9> from each Presi- 
dency, Bencoolen and St. Helena, that I have combined and condensed the 
whole account ; from which it appears to me easily to be deduced that the 
amount derived from the territory to the commerce is that amount which I 
have stated. What became of it does not appear. 

2895. Then the result of your calculations, drawn from the documents 
presented to the Secret Committee, leads you to the inference that the sums 
derived by the commerce from the territory at that time, were derived from 
it before all the expenses of government were paid by the territory ? — I con- 
ceive that the territories of India paid the whole expenses of government, and 
that this sum was taken by the Company as a surplus exceeding those 
expenses. From the addition made to the debt it would appear, however, 
that they must have taken more than the surplus, since it became necessary 
to borrow money to make it up. There are no dates given but of the year ; 
therefore the Company may have wanted money and taken it in January, 
and it may not have been ascertainable till September what their revenues 
or surplus were. 

S896. Have you had an opportunity of looking to the charges and to the 
revenues of India during that period, and ascertaining whether, after 
deducting the charges from the revenue, there was a surplus ? — Undoubt- 
edly there was. 

2897- Have you those accounts?'— I have a condensation of the several 
papers drawn into one. In a former answer I stated that the aid derived 
from the territory would appear diflerent, according as the charges of St. 
Helena and Bencoolen were included in it or not. In the first instance I 
have taken out the account as including St. Helena and Bencoolen, and 
below I have made out the account as it would be if confined to the three 
Presidencies, which would make an aid of £6,981,000. lliis account 
extends from 176^-6 to 1778-9. 

2898. Do you put in this account in support of the opinion you have 
fbrmed that there was an actual surplus revenue from territory during the 
period to which your examination alludes? — I do. 

'289'J. And those results are drawn, as you have stated, from the official 
crii laid before the Committees of Secrecy of the House of Commons in 
3 and 1782?— They are. 

[TKe tatness delivered in the samej which was read asjbllovs :] 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 



(iBNEKAL STATE of Receipts and Disbursements at the several Presidencies and Settlements, extracted 
fr^iii tlic Accuuiits laid before the Committees of Secrecy of the House of Commons, in 1773 and 1782, 



Receipts tfora 1763-610 1776-9. 


Bengal. 


MmIiu. 


BomtT. 


new 

to 1777-8. 
Dencoolen. 


1765-6 
to 1770.1. 
St. Helm. 


1766.7 
to 1779.81^ 

ChiM. 


TOTAL. 


Revenues from Customs,'^ 
Territorial Acquisitions, > 
Nabobs, Ac. . . J 

Hond Debt contracted, 1 
Notes put in circulation J 

Kcmitlanccs from other! 
Settlements . . J 

Gains on liatta, ot the Fac-"^ 
torics, on Iniliun and on > 
Europuun Goods , , J 

Bills of Exchange on Eng- 1 
land .. .. J 

Cai^ocs from Europe, afl 
Eur.»|je price, witli ten > 
per cent. , . . . ' 


£. 
38,423,270 

1.576.348 
657.349 
1,167.610 
a.930,595 
i,73-.5<* 


£. 
10,666,939 

395.839 
2.083,830 

515,865 

749,866 

1.593.176 


£. 

2,001,071 
646,043 

2,326,197 
667,050 
952,498 

2,090^59 


£ 

39,680 

105,378 
387,«45 
W,7I0 
336,403 
354,065 


£. 
5,0«8 

15,893 
7,496 
54,35» 
76,114 


£. 

15,360 
1,685,319 

308,3 so 

1,936,664 

3,9«i,9n 


£. 

51,135,988 

3,738«68 
7,155,630 
3,907,95" 
6,950,307 
8.773.333 


Total Receipts . . JE 


46,493,508 16,005,615 


8,683,318 


1,464,477 


158,883 


6,857.375 


79,663.076 






1 f 1 1 1 


7110,766 

lS,66l 
ll8o,«84 
178,1159 
13+40S 


140,619 

3,946 
10,796 


»8,049 

73.731 

13..774 

«*>4.lM 




Disbii^niifiils from I70J-6 to 
ITTf-a. 

Cliarges. Civil and Mili'-\ 
tary, Buildings and For- I 
tilications. Payments, t 
Donations, &c. .. J 

Bond Debt discharged, ~l 
Notes taken out of cir- > 
culution .. .. J 

Remittances to other Set- 1 
tlenients ., .. J 

Losses on Batta. at the't 
Factories, on Indian and > 
on European goods J 

Cargoes to Europe, valued 1 
at prime cost . . / 


24,063,105 

2.144439 
5,040,666 
1,341.096 
11,076,446 


10,242,238 

343.336 

1,903.501 

430,274 

«.933.8i3 


40,833.647 
3.609,933 

737ia4i 

.,7«7*30 
•107J17 


Total DiBbursemenw . . £ 


43,665,75« 


15.853.16a 


8,188,676 


1.3»9.3e5 


155,360 


6,737.74« 


isMvm 



u 



SELECT COMITTEB of tbk HOUSE OF COMMONS. 



CouHKRCE in Account with the Territory of India, from 1765-6 to 1778-9. 
Dr. Contra. Cr. 



To loMet at the wreral Preaidendca 1 
md Settlements, exclusive of China J 
To cargoes sent to Europe, exclusive 1 
of those ftom China . . j 

To remittances from other Settle- 
nenti lo China . . £1,685,019 

Lew, remittances from't 
C^ina to the Settle. > 79,731 






19.590.673 



B; gains at the several PresideDcies an<l j 
Settlements, exclusive of those inv 



B; bills on Eneland, exclusive of those 1 
drawn in China . . . . J 

By cargoes firom Europe, exduMve ofl 
those to China . . . . J 

By balance, aid from Territorr to Com- 1 
neree from 1765-6 to 1778-9 . . / 



«.599.73i 
5.t>«3.643 
5.851,380 
6.116.979 



19.590,673 



CoHMFJiCE in Account with the Territory of India, from IT^d-G to 1778-9. 
(confined to the Three Preaidenciei,) 



Dr. 






Cr. 


to cargoes sent to Eurc^ from ditto . . 

To^ttanee. from ditto toj£,_g.^^gB 

Bencoolen 106,958 

SkHelena 11,948 


£. 
2,405,401 
15.s49.3a4 

1.731.394 


By bUls drawn on England from ditto . . 

By cargoes from Europe to ditto 

By balance, aid from Territory to Com- 1 
merce from 1765-* to 1778-9 .. J 

£. 


£. 

8,350.525 
4.639.889 
5.491. 141 
6,981.564 






£. 


19.386,119 


19,386,119 



3900. Besides Bencoolen and St. Helena, had not the Cotnpany> as mer- 
chants, to defray the expenses of Bombay previous to the acquisition of the 
Dewannee ? — Undoubtedly. 

ii901. Do you, in the Statement you have given in, make any allowance 
for the BUpport of Bombay during the period to which this Account ap- 
plies ?— That is taken as a territorial charge in the Account. 

9902. Then as far as the expenses of Bombay formerly charged to com- 
merce may go, it would be in favour of your statement that the revenues 
had been aurpliu ? — Undoubtedly. 

i003. In the first Account vou have produced, it is stated that there are 

£5,OG9,648 remaining in India ; from whence did that sum arise ? — The 

S E committee 




39* EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

^1 July 1831. committee of proprietors stated that it arose from their commercial funds ; 
-^ and of course, if the amount of that expenditure is correctly given, it came 

7'. I^ngtm, Esq. ^-^^^ jjjg Q^\y gource they had j that is, from their commercial funds. 

Sgot. What observations have you to make upon the financial period from 
1780 to 1793 ? — Mr. Melvill, in reference to the period from I78O to I79S, 
proceeds to say, that by an estimate framed upon the principles of separation 
now observed, the excess of payments by the commerce from 1780 to 1793, 
was £6,829,557. This is the heaviest charge brought against the territory, 
and the period in which it is stated to have arisen is precisely that in which 
the data for investigation aremost scanty and imperfect. No Select Coa< 
mittee, I believe, was appointed to prepare the way for the Act of 1793 i^ 
ncwing the Company's privileges ^ the Accounts for the period since the f<v> 
mcr inquiries were not called for and looked into ; and as the Accounts 
annually laid before Parliament were not printed till towards the close of the 
period, the original Accounts would be difficult to trace out, and very labo- 
rious to examine. There was published, however, in 1802, a compendium of 
East-India Accounts and Affairs for the use of the Directors, by an ofBcer of 
the East-India House, to which, in defect of documents of higher authority, 
reference may be had ; they are not so complete as might be wished, but I 
have no doubt they were extracted from the Parliamentary Papers, and as far 
as they go may, I think, be relied on. But before stating the result deduci- 
blc from tliis source, I should wish to detail some circumstances of the Limes 
in question, the tendency of which is to show what result it would be natural 
to expect to find. From 17^5 to 178O, the period immediately precedinj^ 
tliat into which I am about to inquire, it is admitted in their own accounts 
that the Company drew continually and largely from the territorial re^ue 
in aid of their commerce. Fi-om 179^-3 to 1803-3, the eleven years immedi- 
ately succeeding, the Select Committee of the House of Commons state, in 
their second Report, page QS^ " that the revenues of India proved more than 
sufficient to defray every expense of administration and government, and the 
interest of the debts, by a sum of £3,734,445." Of the intervening twelve 
years, I 6nd, on reference to a pamphlet published by Mr. Hastings imme- 
diately on his return to England in 1785, this statement, at page 3^ that up 
to the time of his leaving India in the be^nning of that year (including 
therefore the four first years of our periods the state of the territorial finan- 
ces had continued such, notwithstanding the heavy expense! of the recent 
wars, as atone to support the commerce of the Company. Mr. Hasfiagft 
states also in the same publication, at page 32, that the revenue of the Ben- 
gal provinces, at the time of his leaving India in the early part of that year 
I7S5, W.13 competent to pay a yearly tribute to the Company of a crore tff 
rupees, applicable either for supplies to the itber presidencies or to Chini^ or 
to be invested in cargoes for Europe. In this prospenNit state India eigajedk 
I believe, a more undisturbed peace from l*] 35 to 17B9 than it has ever bieea 
blessed with for the same length of time ; it was m peiiod ofprsfimnd peace 
in Europe, and there seems little cause to avc cxiatedibr «tnvTdiuary e: 




SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. §95 

pemes. The war with Tippoo then broke out; but it was a successful war, ai July 
and the sultan, besides cediog a portion of his possessions, was charged with — 

the expenses of the war, which were laid, I think, at £l,GOO,000. It appears ^' iMgi 
to me therefore inconceivable, that placed between two periods of surplus re- 
venue, a few years under the circumstances described by Mr. Hastings, and 
so little disturbed by untoward events, should have swallowed up, not only 
the whole territorial revenue and near £6,000,000. sterling of new debt, but 
have required moreover assistance from the commercial branch to the extent 
of £6)800,000. I now proceed to state the result which I deduce from the 
collection of accounts before alluded to. These accounts embrace the eleven 
years from 1781 to 1791 inclusive ; the Madras accounts are deficient for the 
first year, which I have taken on an average of the five following; the St Helena 
charges are wanting for the two first years, which I have taken on the average 
of the seven following. The interest on the debt is also not given for the four 
first years ; this I have estimated on the supposition that the increase of the 
debt during those four years had been equable. The total revenues of 
Bengal, from 1781 to 1791 inclusive, were £57,242,509; of Madras, 
£14,384,649.; of Bombay, £2,271.718 ; of Bencoolen, £35,938 ; total of 
the ordinary revenues, £7S»934,608. The military, civil and judicial charges 
of Bengal for the same time were £40,385,696 ; of Madras, £18,555,700 ; of 
Bombay, £8,813,195; of Bencoolen and supplies to it, £664,712; the 
charges of St. Helena, £306,623 ; making a total of £68,725,926 ; leaving 
a surplus of £5,208,682 ; to which add the increase of debt, or money bor- 
rowed during this period, £5,747,350 ; making together £10,956,032. The 
interest on the debt (the four first years on a full estimate) cannot have ex- 
ceeded £5,110,428; and if there be allowed for stores from England and 
sums paid in England, supposed chargeable to the territory, taken for these 
eleven years at the same amount at which they were charged for the year 
1793, in the Appendix to the Sd and 4th Reports of 1811 and 1812, they will 
amount to £3,947,416, which added to the mterest would make £9>057fS41 ; 
leaving a surplus unaccounted for of £1,898,188 ; with which I should con- 
ceive the commerce ought to be charged, rather than that the territory should 
have become liable to any charge during this period. The preceding state- 
ment, it is true, is, in some respects, a mere estimate; but neither is Mr. Mel- 
vill's claim founded on any more certain, or at least any known data, and the 
estimate to which he refers the Committee has never been seen out of 
Leaden hall-street. In my statement, the Bencoolen supplies, including, ac- 
cording to the 2d Report, funds for the purchase of pepper and cultivation 
of spices, are charged, according to the practice of the Company, entirely to 
the territory, as well as the charges of St. Helena; and as the stores from 
England and the sums paid there have been almost invariably an increasing 
charge from year to year, I have in all probability allowed far too much to 
the commerce, in supposing these amounts to have been equal to that for 
1793 in each of the preceding years. The interest on the debt is also put 
entirely to the territory, though a considerable part of that, I think, has been 
shewn to be more justly chargeable to commerce. 

3 £ 2 290ff. T 



396 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIES: 



21 July 1831. 2905. You stated the civil and military charges during that time ; do you 

include the general expense that the Company were at in making fortifica- 

T. LangioH, Etq. ^^^^^ and supplying those fortifications with stores? — In most of the 
accounts presented for that period, whether in these or not I am not quite 

certain 



The Annual Revenues and Choi^ of Bbmoal, Madras, Bohbat, and Bemcoolim, with the Annual Coit of 



1781-3 

i;88-3 

1783-4 

1784-S 

1785-6 

1786-7 

1787-8 

1788-9 

1789-90 

1790-1 

1791-3 



ToUl ChwgM. 
Totd RcTtnoM. Civ. Mil. ' 
I Mir. uid Bn. I 



4,79,64,184 

5,08,94,409 
5.25.' 8,059 
5.3i>5l,97o 
4.98.9 1.783 
5.09^44.064 
5,20,38,537 
5,53.88,114 
5,63,06,561 
5^3.33,920 
4,89,13,437 



4,48,13,786 

4,>7.4'.855 
4.30,48,595 
4,3i.a5.i9> 
4.o6>56,34» 
3,61,80,788 
3,14,67,718 
3,13,67,103 
3,12,01486 
2.95^59,797 
3,08,02,398 



24,5i>398 

fli.53,554 
94,69,464 
l,oo,a6,779 
92,35.442 
M7,63,376 
3,05,60,809 
3,41,31,011 
9.50,05,075 
2,56,70,133 
1,81,10,139 



57,94,23,038 '40,38,56,958 16,85,66,070 



Smptiu 
in FDundt 
Sterlmg. 



£. 
945,140 

915.955 

946,9*6 

1,003,678 

923,544 

1,476,328 

9,056,081 

9,413,101 
9,500,508 
9,567,019 
1,811,014 



16,856,607 



94,88,604 3S,43,Bi8 
FMiiiMito beinKwi iinmse 



7,54t6i4 301.846 
of the An iDUowins jMn. 



18,80,734 
97,91,969 
25,18,835 
94,30,310 
38,31,884 
30,98,316 
33,92,448 
33.72,851 
40,90,384 
79,16,098 



3,59,61,693 



31.79,983 
49,55.598 
30,24,777 
27.38,746 
30,16,987 
36,67,833 
38,92,373 
4347,537 
66,03,997 
84.88,903 



4,63,89,951 



19,99.259 
14.64,329 
5.05.949 
3,18.436 
1,85,103 
6,39.617 
4,99.994 
9.74.686 
95,13,613 
19,79,105 



1,04.97,098 



519,704 
585.731 
909,374 
197.374 
74.041 
955.847 
19*970 
389,874 



50M49 



799-3 5,51.27,617 3.42,52,997 9,08,74,690 9,087,469 61,90,775 53150.767 8.40.008 



SoRdK 
336.003 



Total Surplua of Bengal in the eleven Yean from 1781*9 to 1791*9 indnaiTe. . 

Total Dc6citof Madnu ditto 

Ditto .... of Bombay ditto 

Ditto of Bencootcn ditto 

Chargei of St. Helena ditto 



£. 

4.171.051 

6.54trf77 

6t8,774 

306^3 



16356.607 



11.647,015 



Net Suiplui of the ordinary Rerenuei and Chargei 

IncreaK of the Debt bftween the end of 1780 aad 1799 . 




SELECT COMMITTEE of thb HOUSE OP COMMONS. 397 

certain, there is invariably aeolumn for buildings and fortifications, and I SI July I 
have no doubt that they are included in it 

^ T. Ltmgton, I 

[ne Witness delivered in an Accotmt qfthe Annual Revenues^ S^.^ and the same 

was readasJbUows :] 



tht Uaiid of St. Helkna, from the Yetr 1781-S to the Yetr 1791-S induiive ; also the tune for the Year 1792-8. 



4Si«<U85 

37,79,048 
14,80^9 
is>33,806 

ii>Mfi83 

i«*04f909 
"»t9,ff76 

13,59,460 

14.4s.505 
i5/»3.48i 
1^461350 



«iOi,g3,045 



•«fOS,707 



BOMBAY, 
in Rupeei, at Sf. 3c<l 



Charget. 



Deficit. 



70,87,608 

73,6o,5«B 
84,44*810 

46,45*765 
47,71,024 

88,04,489 

47*18,509 

55*96,689 

50,88,231 

95,01,789 
i*«3,«o,o7a 



7>83*39>5i4 



t8,6i,i33 

35,81,480 
69.64,468 

34*13*459 
35.76.841 

75*99.580 

35*88,533 
49,44,299 

36,45,796 

79.98,308 

1.06,73,799 



Deficit 

in Pound! 

Sterling. 



£. 
3*1,876 

409,916 
783,50a 
383.901 
402,395 

854,953 
403.710 
477*476 

410,144 

899.810 

1,900,794 



BENCOOLEN, 
in DoUart, at 5i. 



RcTieniiet* 



Chaifet. 



Deficit 



10,377 

10,684 
10,679 
10,679 
9,000 
10,860 

13*319 

15,060 

14.331 
91,984 

16,900 



8*71*941 

8*67,419 
8*78.376 

8.54*835 
8,91,986 

8,67,694 
8,00,174 
8,09,693 

8,83,694 
1,88,930 

8,05485 



8,61,564 

2,56,728 
9,67,704 

8*43.563 
9,82,986 

8,56,834 
1,86,962 

1*94.563 
8.09,363 
1 ,66,946 

1*88,585 



Deficit 

in PMwdi 

Sterling. 



5,81,46,469 



6,541*477 



143*758 



86,58,850 



85*15,098 



65,68,899 



44,66,199 



508,496 



19*898 



65*391 

64,189 
66,926 
60,891 

70*746 
64,908 

46,740 

48,641 

58,341 
41*568 

47*146 



Cbanes 
St Helena. 



£. 
86,1538 

26,153 
28,196 

85,063 
24,261 
25,884 

87,359 
28,461 

87.390 

33.389 

34*314 



628,774 



306,623 



8,84*977 



205,685 



51,481 



40,589 



Brou^t forward 



Intereit ealimated at 



StOKafroiii England in 1793-4 187464 

Soma paid there, &c i7i>398 



£. 
5,110,488 



Scores and Sums paid for Elewi Years 358,856x11 



3»947*4i6 



I 



10,956,039 



9,057,844 



Surplus m the Elefon Tears £• 

* Estimate aversge of the sefen foUowiDg yaaraa 



1,898,188 



398 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 July 1831. 8906. Have you instituted a aimilar inquiry into the third period ; namely, 

from 1793 to 1814 ? — I have not pursued the inquiry into this period beyond 

T. Langion, Esq. jjj^ y^^^ 1808-9, as I could not, with the data to which I had access, hope to 

arrive at any result as to the transactions from 1809-10 to 1813-14 ; for the 
earlier portion of this period the labours of the Select Committee of 1811-12 
had greatly facilitated the examination, though that Committee did not 
itself succeed in effecting its object of ascertaining the relative position of 
the territorial and commercial branches. Before stating, the results at which 
I have arrived, it will be necessary to premise that, in my judgment, the 
account between the branches requires to be conducted on a dinerent prin- 
ciple after the Act of 1793 had passed. That Act, whilst it gives increased 
dividends to the proprietors, excludes them from all further participation, 
(except in a remote contingent case,) either in the surplus territorial revenue, 
or in the surplus commercial profit. When therefore the commerce drew 
supplies from the revenue, beyond what was returned within the year from 
their commercial funds, interest was justly chargeable, as the money might 
have been applied in reduction of debt and of interest. There was the 
greater propriety in this, as the supplies to commerce have been frequently 
provided by loans made in the name of the territory, for which I refer to the 
Second Report, p. 65, and to the Third Report, p. 359, from which, with the 
permission of the Committee, I will read extracts. From the Second Re- 
port, p. 65 : ** the sources from which funds have been derived from year to 
year, for the supply of the combined operations of government and com* 
merce, were the revenues of the territories, and supplies from Europe, either 
in bullion or exports, or by bills upon the Court. When the aggregate amount 
of these several heads has not been sufficient to defray the expenses of 
government, to provide investments, and to remit supplies to China, money 
has been raised upon loan." And the Third Report, at p. 3^9, state^t 
** from these accounts it is to be deduced that when a surplus revenue 
existed in India, it was, in conformity with the principles laid down in the 
Act of 1793, applied to advances for the purchase of investments, for con« 
signments to Europe, or for the supply of the Canton treasury ; and when, 
combined with funds available in India from supplies from Europe, it was 
found insufficient for these purposes, the difference was furnished by monies 
raised on loan in India. In whatever amount therefore the capital of the 
Company in England was not sufficient for carrying on the trade, and for 
the conduct of the concern generally, the deficiency was supplied by monies 
raised in Indi^. The impracticability of distinguishing what part of these 
monies was applied to commercial, and what part to political purposes, 
having already been stated, the object of these additional remarks is merely 
intended as a further demonstration of the strict connection of the political 
and commercial affairs at home as well as abroad, and as a proof of the cor« 
rectness of the position, that till it shall be clearly ascertained that these sup- 
plies from the home treasury to India and China were derived from sources 
purely commercial, the question of a distinct view of the proportion of the 

Indian 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 899 

Indian debt which is to be termed political or commercial must remain 91 July 1 

undecided, whatever may have been the amount of thoie supplies/' It is 

also fairly to be inferred, from the language of the Third Report, that the ^* I^»tfi^^ 

{>ropriety of an interest account was seen by the Select Committeey though 
t is not so stated in express words. The Report states the balance of sup- 
plies to be in favour of commerce, yet it speaks of a part of the debt con* 
tracted during the period, being, with the mterest on it, a commercial debt^ 
considering that when money was borrowed for the use of commerce, or to 
replace what had been taken from the revenues for the use of commerce, 
commerce was directly liable for the loan and the interest on it On the 
other hand, I have considered the territory to be the only ostensible party in 
India, and as standing between the lender and commerce, liable to the 
lender for the principal and interest, but having a counter claim on commerce 
Tpto tanto. 

2907* Do you make that observation on the part of Mr. MelvilPs evidence, 
in answer to question 5671, wherein he states, that on reference to the Third 
Report of the Select Committee on East-India A£&irs in 1813, it will be 
observed that the Committee experienced considerable difficulty in their 
attempt to ascertain the relative situation of tlie territorial and commercial 
branches ; they however came to the condusion, that the balance since 1793 
had been in favour of the commercial branch. Are these observations you 
have made in reference to that part of Mr. Melvill's evidence? — ^Not 
entirely ; they are with reference to the necessity of an interest account 
between the branches. 

2908. How does the credit thus given to the commercial branch in Mr. 
Melvill's reference to the Third Report, accord with your understanding of 
tbe general tenor of that Report ?— The balance of supplies in favour of 
commerce, given at the close of the Third Report, does not differ materially 
ftom that which appears in the Account I have prepared. But the general 
tenor of the Third Report cannot be collected from the statement of that 
balance, without also comparing with it various passages, in which the inte- 
rest, being uniformly brought forward in the accounts from year to year as a 
direct demand upon the revenues of India, is commented on ; as in the 
Second Report, at page 60, where they say, ** it is, however, to be remarked, 
that other demands, which have fallen on the revenues of India, remain to 
be examined, before it will be practicable to pursue the investigation of the 
final results. These demands are described in the columns of the statement 
as supplies to Bencoolen, Penang, &c« and the interest on the debts. These 
several articles cannot, in either casct be considered as either wholly of a 

C^litical or of a commercial description, although they have uniformly been 
ought forward in the accounts from year to year as a direct demand upon 
the revenues of India, and have very materially affected the general result of 
tbe aane.'' 

S909. Are 



ti^ 



400 EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS : 

21 July 183L 2909^ Are ihere any sums piud^ in EoglaodjsappDsed* chatgaab^ to tbe 
r T "3ZI T? territory dufiiig that'p*riod» which; yoo coQeeive.ito b6> nqnxiperlj^. lux 
i.umgm,iu8q. eharfeed ?— I conceive thereare.. In the ABt.]rfl?98,^tte*th,daiiaeii»^ 

in express terms, that the expense of the Board of CoKpmissioners shalLbe, . j 

deemed and taken to be a dommerciar charge ; it is however Introdhiceif ihto' 
political charges in the Appendix 46 to the 1 hird Report, and placed against ' 
the territory. When Mr. Cartwright, the accountant-general^ was called on 
to explain what items that head consisted ol^ the very first itiem' heihamed '- 
was the expense of the Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India, 
though the Act of Parliament had expressly said that it was to be deemed 
and taken to be a commercial charge; the amount of that charge was not 
allowed to exceed £16,000. Upon the supposition that it had always attained 
that sum, the amount for the seventeen . years to which the inquiry of the 
Select Committee extended, with the accumulated interest upon it, would 
have amounted to above £600,000 ; there were other items under that head 
which had also very little to do with the territory, such as the East-India 
Company's volunteers, the expense of which for one year was, 1 believe, 
£28,000. There are several other items, but I do not understand the nature 
of them; as the expense of the Company's stud; whether that is territorial 
or commercial I do not know, but the Select Committee, after stating the 
balance of supplies, named several other items which require further adjust- 
ment; and amongst others^ they say of the sums paid in England supposed 
chargeable to the territory, " some of these appear to have been cor* ^ 

rectly so charged ;'' leaving it to be inferred, I suppose, that some were 
not so. 

2910. You have assigned reasons, in reply to a former question, that an 
interest account should be drawn up between the two branches, after the 
Act of 1793 had passed ; have you in the course of your inquiry drawn up 
such an account, and if so, will you state what result you come to ? — I have 
prepared such an account ; but I must repeat what I said before, that the 
data from which it has had to be framed are not of a character to allow of 
its being effected with a precision and minuteness usual in commercial 
accounts; it is but an approximation, but I am persuaded that when rigidly 
and fairly examined, it will be found to be a near approximation, and leaning 
rather to favour commerce than territory, with the view to obviate cavil. At 
the close of 1808-9, I made a balance of interest due from commerce to ter- 
ritory of £5,17^,4190 ; the balance of supplies in favour of commerce I make 
£l,638,13J, which is rather more than it is stated at in the Third Report ; 
the difference of £3,537t355 is the absolute balance against commerce, but 1 

still subject to several adjustments, which the Third Report has enumerated 
as necessary to be made, though it has left it to others to make these 
adjustments. These adjustments are such as would most of them tend to 
increase the balance against commerce, such as a charge of 10 per cent, on 
goods and stores consigned, sums paid in England supposed chargeable to 

territory. 



SELECT COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS. 401 

territory^ charges of Bencoolen, Priace of Wales' Island, &c. ; to which may SI July issi. 
be added, the cbai^res of St. Helena, placed by the Third Report amongst — 

the doubtful items, whether commercial or partly political. ^- ^'^'V'^ -^9- 

S911. Have you the Account to which you have just referred ?— I 
have. 

[J%e wiAie» delivered m the Accounts Na 1 and No 9, and the same were read 
asjbltow .-] 



PARTICULARS 




3F 



402 



EVIDENCE ON EAST-INDIA AFFAIRS: 



No. 1. — PARTICULARS of the Ordinary and Extraordikary Rkceipts of the Indian Treasuries, for 

also, the Sums for which the Territory has to be Credited or 





1. 


2. 

Charges of 


3. 


4- 


5- 

Debt at Interest 


6. 


7- 




YEAR. 


Revenues of 
India, 
Appendix 2 to 
Second Report, 
Appendix 11 to 
Third Report 


India, 
(exclusive of 
Oomroereial 
Chaiges.) 
Appendix 2 to 
Second Report, 
Appendix 11 to 
Tliird Report. 


Supplies to 
Beucoolen, &c. 
Appendix 2 to 
Second Report, 
Appendix 1 1 to 
Third Report. 


iDterest paid 00 

theDeht. 
Appendix 2 to 
Second Rttiort, 
Appendix 11 to 
Third Report 


dOth April in 

each Year, 

with the Increase 

or Decrease. 

Appendix 7 to 

Second Report, 

Appendix 2 to 

Third Report 


Floatmg Deht, 
with the Increase 
or Decrease. 
Appendix 7 to 
Second Report 
Appendix 2 to 
Third Report. 


Cash and Bills 

on band 

with the Increase 

orDeoreaae. 

Appendix to 

Third Report; 

Papers. 
9 Feb. 1830. 






£. 


£. 


£. 


£. 


£. 


& 


£. 




1792-3 . . 


8,225,628 


6,304,607 


66,217 


636,226 


7,129,934 

d. 996,994 


2,012,786 

d. 934,101 


1,804,292 

i- 7.900 




1793-4 .. 


8,276,770 


6,066,924 


40,822 


526,205 


6,192,980 
d. fi54}09S 


1,778,685 
d. 19,310 


1,811,552 

L 195,059 




1794-5 •. 


8,026,193 


6,083,507 


62,080 


484,301 


5,538,888 
d. 909*840 


1,766,369